The Two Jehovahs of Psalm 110

This is why I always quote from many different bibles, when I quote scripture online I often look at 10 or 15 different versions, the one that puts across the point the best is the one I use. And maybe 10% of the time it is the NWT. All bibles have value.

I would not put the New World Translation in the same category as scripture.

This book is nothing but a corrupt sectarian paraphrase used only by the Watchtower Societies Jahovah Witnesses and no one else.

The Watchtower Organization is the biggest threat to Christianity there is.

Hi BlueJay 33

Your translation of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 from the Greek as it stands in most MSS is impossible.

The Greek texts (mangled tho' they are in the surviving MSS) clearly states:

'All Scriptures THAT ARE 'god-Breathed' ARE [also] useful for teaching [purposes], for rebuking, for correcting and for training to [encourage] righteous acts... '

which is VERY VERY different from saying "all scriptures are god-breathed (Gk: theopneustos, 'breathed-into by a god', i.e. god-inspired) and useful for teaching..."&tc

So be VERY careful how to take the Koine Greek into English. Most churches today are stuffed to the rafters with parishoners who can barely read and write modern English, let alone Koine Greek or 1st century Galilean Aramaic...so they end up being 'forced' to believe what they cannot even read...you get my drift, I'm sure...

Do you happen to have any Greek or Aramaic under your belt? Just wondering is all...





[edit on 27-10-2009 by Sigismundus]

reply to post by oliveoil


It was just that I was not feeling too well. It's been tough for me lately. Sorry if I confused anyone....

reply to post by oliveoil


I am not going to debate you on this topic as I have done my own personal research on this, so I do not agree with your personal assessment on this topic. Anyways it would be pushing the thread off topic.

reply to post by Sigismundus


What are you talking about.

It's not my translation, it is one that I picked from a parallel bible. I saw the ones that use the words you quote as well, I just happen to like this one better.

God does allow us some latitude for personal preference that doesn't violate his principles. What, you don't think that applies to bibles?

As for my Greek I don't claim to be able to speak it, however I have studied key words that relate to my belief structure many times over the years. If you learn about 30 words Greek & Hebrew it makes a big difference as to understanding what certain verses actually mean.
And besides I trust my Greek acquaintances that have the same belief structure as me, if it was wrong they would have told me a long time ago.

So Blue Jay 33

Basically what you are saying is...no, I cannot speak Greek nor do I understand the rudiments of Greek grammar but I know what is written in 2 Timothy 3:16 because my pastor told me, and if it were not so, he would have told me about it...

Sounds kind of jejune to me...I mean saying, 'I believe every word I was told because no body ever told me to the contrary..' do not exactly sound like the words of someone who cares to know much about his own belief system..

But just to be fair, coming from one who CAN read the Greek, as I can, the text of 2 Timothy 3:16 (whoever really did write it) DOES say:

'All scriptures THAT ARE god-breathed (i.e. the ONES that ARE inspired texts) are suitable for teaching &tc.'

(we DO NOT know what texts the writer had in mind: in Qumran caves 1-11, sealed up in a timecapsule in AD 68, we find Jewish Writings that were considered 'the bible' being copied RIGHT NEXT to texts that were later voted in ('as defiling the hands') by the Javneh Council after AD 90 but still being argued in places until AD 120! ) such as The Scroll of the Book of the Words of Henoch the Scribe (quoted as a proof text 'god inspired scripture' in canonical Jude chapter 1 :14 &tc.), the Scroll of the Book of the Testament of Moses (aka Book of Jubilees), the Scroll of the Book of the Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs (quotes as proof text Scripture by 'Iesous' in the 4th Gospel chapter 4 at the woman at the Well Scene : for it is written 'the Salvation of Israel [in the North] shall come from the Judaeans [in the south]' taken from the Testament of Naphtali chapter 13:9 etc.) - the Scroll of the Book of the Asumption of Moses (also being quoted as a 'god-breathed' proof text in canonical epistle of Jude &tc.--all these Jewish texts were each considered 'god-breathed inspired scripture' by the earliest Aramaic speaking Christians, who were around when 2 Timothy was being written and circulated after the death of 'Saul of Tarsus'...

BUT...the Greek text does NOT say: 'All scriptures are inspired of god and are useful for teaching purposes...' It says 'all scriptures THAT ARE god-inspired are useful...' BIG DIFFERENCE !!

So be very very very very very very very careful about what persons (who SHOULD KNOW BETTER) among your own religious circles are telling you to believe. They are mis-quoting out of ignorance (or malice in some cases)

Maybe a beginner's Koine Greek course would do you some good? At least you could read what you consider to be a 'holy text' (i.e. what the Rabbi's oddly called 'texts that defiled the hands') for yourself, rather than believe every numskull that comes along...!!

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by oliveoil

 

I am not going to debate you on this topic as I have done my own personal research on this, so I do not agree with your personal assessment on this topic. Anyways it would be pushing the thread off topic.

Fare enough.

reply to post by Sigismundus


I am glad you can speak and read Greek with some degree of proficiency.

But even a person who can read, write and speak Hebrew and Greek may not fully understand the inspired word of God, just look at the Jewish Clergy of Jesus day. They knew the scriptures and the language and they still didn't get it. I would much rather have God's Holy Spirit than all the knowledge of both those languages.

John 14:26 (NIV)

26But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of everything that I have told you.

John 4:24 (Amplified Bible)

24God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).

[edit on 27-10-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

So Blue Jay

How do you know what is being said in the 4th canonical (council approved) Gospel (of 'John' whoever he was) if you cannot read the Greek text for yourself?

The best thing for YOU to do, is study the original languages of the texts you purport to believe in (since now you cannot even read them, so how on earth can you believe them?) then think about the best way to bring those phrases into modern English.

The problem you will face is that once you learn how to read Greek and Aramaic, you will begin to see how warped the Greek MSS are in terms of actual texts (5446 Greek texts of the New testament, no two alike!) as Bart Erhman discovered, but ONLY when he was doing his Ph.D. thesis (and not before, when he was attending fundamentalist bible schools).

But then you have to 'have the courage of your convictions' to be able to go out on a limb and actually learn to do the hard work for yourself rather than forever relying on bad translations from various persons who play fast and loose with the texts they purport to translate.

You are quoting texts you cannot read. That is a BIG NO-NO in this business !

reply to post by Sigismundus


You side stepped the entire point of my post, and just keep hammering away that a person has to understand Greek.

Learning and understanding Greek is not essential to gain God's approval.
It's just a bonus in enhancing our understanding of scriptural truth.

So basically the bottom line is you don't think God can protect his own word?
Because I think he has.

And I am not debating this anymore as we are drifting way off topic.


[edit on 27-10-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

Actually if you knew the first thing about the sorry state of the MSS evidence of the New Testament you would see IMMEDIATELY that your god did NOT protect his 'word' because there is NO SINGLE TEXT that IS his word...just 5446 Greek manuscripts (hand copied and hand-altered, many of them deliberately !) which are copies of copies of copies of copies of really bad copies of copies of defective copies of bad copies of really bad copies----so what you basically have is junk data.

So it would be absolutely impossible for any thinking person with even a BASIC understanding of the immense problems of this material in the original languages (as Bart Erhman found out, the hard way !) to even THINK that he HAS IN HIS POSSESSION the word of any clan-god, whether it be the clan god of post-Exilic Israel or Vishnu or Kali or Isis or Serapis or Wodin.

He doesn't. He ONLY really has at his disposal a junk-heap of badly preserved MSS copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of mangled copies of badly preserved copies of texts that have been manipulated by handcopyists over the centuries (with ommissions, insertions and replacement language).

And ANYONE who tells you otherwise either does not know the TRUE state of the manuscript evidence (as Bart Erhman learned over the past 20 years) or else he is a LIAR.

So my advice to you would be to stop putting faith in things that you do not understand. Doing so is called...SUPERSTITION.

reply to post by Sigismundus


I respect but disagree with your statement and that's all I'll say on that subject. I urge you to get back on topic. This is to discuss weather there were two Jehovah's in the OT or even if Jesus Himself was Jehovah (which I believe He was). If your contribution is just to disprove who my God is or disprove the bible, I want no part of that in my thread. It will cause the thread to get off-topic as you and bluejay did. Take bluejay's advice and get back on topic please.

I respect you and your opinion but what you are talking about belongs in another thread for further discussion. Peace brother (or sister, whatever the case is).

quote]Originally posted by oliveoil
Matthew 4:1; Mark 1:12; Luke 4:1-2

How did the devil tempt Jesus ? Luke 4: 5-7

In Luke 4:8 Jesus says,

“It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

Then the Devil said,
Luke 4:9-11

9 Now he led him into Jerusalem and stationed him upon the battlement of the temple and said to him: “If you are a son of God, hurl yourself down from here; 10 for it is written, ‘He will give his angels a charge concerning you, to preserve you,’ 11 and, ‘They will carry you on their hands, that you may at no time strike your foot against a stone.

Jesus then replied,

Luke 4: 12
12 In answer Jesus said to him: “It is said, ‘You must not put Jehovah your God to the test.

In conclusion Luke 4: 13 says,
13 So the Devil, having concluded all the temptation, retired from him until another convenient time.


If Matthew 4:1, Mark 1:13, and Luke 4:2 are correct in saying that Jesus was tempted by the Devil,
Why then would Jesus reply back to the devil saying, " You must not put Jehovah your god to the test"?

Who was the devil tempting, Jesus or Jehovah?

jesus said "You must not put Jehovah your god to the test", because by jumping off the battlement, thats exactly what he would have been doing. Jesus was quoting a command

New American Standard Bible (©1995) deut 6:16
"You shall not put the LORD your God to the test, as you tested Him at Massah."

exodus 17:1-7 Then...the sons of Israel...camped at Rephidim, and there was no water for the people to drink. Therefore the people quarreled with Moses and said, "Give us water that we may drink." And Moses said to them, "Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you test the Lord?" But the people thirsted there for water; and they grumbled against Moses and said, "Why, now, have you brought us up from Egypt, to kill us and our children and our livestock with thirst?" ...And he named the place Massah [which means "test"] and Meribah [which means "quarrel"] because of the quarrel of the sons of Israel, and because they tested the Lord, saying, "Is the Lord among us, or not?"

Notice how Exodus describes it: "...they tested the Lord, saying, 'Is the Lord among us, or not?'" The lack of water caused them to question whether God was really on their side. All that He had done in the past didn't count; all that He had promised to do in the future didn't count; what counted was the frightening present. God couldn't really be there, couldn't really be powerful and trustworthy, if He would bring them to a barren wilderness.

The question should have been settled already; God is there; He is powerful and loving. Instead, each new difficulty caused Israel to question His power and goodness. They "tested" Him by making Him prove His faithfulness all over again. Years later, Moses looks back on this event and warns the people: "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test, as you tested Him at Massah." This is the verse Jesus quotes when Satan tempts Him in the wilderness.

One can only imply that Jesus was referring to himself as Jehovah?

no they cannot. jesus was actually tempted and had to make a stand for his rightousness.

GOD is not capable of being tempted

james 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

if jesus was god, then satan's attempt was pointless and raises the question of why he did it in the first place.

If Jesus was not referring to himself as Jehovah why wouldn't he have said," You must not put the SON OF GOD to the test"?

i explained this before

If Jesus was not referring to himself as Jehovah ,why did he use the word YOUR GOD ?.
Is Jehovah the god of the Devil and not Jesus?

because he was quoting

If Jesus was not referring to himself as Jehovah, Why didn't he use the words OUR GOD or MY GOD?

your repeating yourself

Matthew, Mark and Luke all claim that Jesus was tempted by the Devil. Luke then goes on to say that Jesus told the Devil "YOU MUST NOT PUT JEHOVAH YOUR GOD TO THE TEST"
Either Matthew, Mark, and Luke are lying about the Devil tempting Jesus (which they clearly are not) or Jesus is lying referring to himself as Jehovah!(Which he wouldn't do if it were not true) It can't be both! How can anyone believe any part the NWT if Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Jesus are lying? The answer must be that they are all indeed correct.
Jesus is Jehovah, and he was tempted by the Devil.

then that means james was lying because Jehovah cannot be tempted.

Originally posted by oliveoil
When Jesus said that my Father is "Greater" than I, he was referring to position not nature. If he were referring to nature he would have used the term "Better"

Ex. You may be greater than I in your position at work, But you are not better than me. We are equal in importance.

still speaks against trinitarian co-equality. if jesus is GOD then GOD is not greater than jesus in any way. figurative or real.

your not reading the scripture for what it is, instead your flavoring it with your own bias.

Why do people that follow the NWT always try to quote from the KJV.

If the NWT is true, why not quote from it, and not the KJV?

because people like you throw fits when we do.

Hi Locoman--

I think sometimes a wider discussion of these issues sometimes (inadvertently) bleeds into the narrower ones (especially when discussing Hebrew texts, which most persons on this thread cannot and will not read in their original languages -- both the colnvoluted MSS problems to do with the Aramaic and paleo-Hebrew of the rabinnical Jewish Canon of scriptures (and the dead sea scroll canon i.e. adding apocryphal and pseudipigraphical books to the mix) and the messy 5446 Koine Greek MSS situation of the post Nicaea council approved NT scriptures).

Unfortunately there are persons on this thread who seem to think it helpful and 'on topic' to defend their belief systems just because they were taught to believe a certain way and start quoting obscure wrirtings such as 2 Timothy to back up their warped knowledge of the subject--which as you say has NO THING to do with Psalm 110's dual god issue at all.

The issue of mono-theism v. poly-theism and how the Jews eventually dealt with that issue is part of the discussion here which bleeds into the larger isse of how YHWH relates to 'the gods' in preExilic writings such as Psalm 110 which is based on an ancient Ugaritic pre-Jewish Canaanite enthronement hymn (and also the whole idea of older gods being later identified with YHWH e.g. the preJewish Ugaritic Canaanite god EL and his divine council of gods in the psalms etc.) and the issue of the so-called Christian 'trinity' of gods (father-son-spirit)--and how all this ties into the problems of Psalm 110

('YHWH said to my lord the king, sit here until I make your enemies your footstool !")

which some persons on this thread (as other Messianic believers in antiquity) believe refers in some way to the Messiah, or even to R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir which Christians take to be the Messiah of the Jews having already appeared in the early 1st century CE.


There was a brief discussion of the inherent 'polytheism' in the 4th canonical gospel ('of John' whoever he was) e.g. John 1:1

"In the Beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with (the) God, and the Logos WAS A GOD"

So the opening of the 4th gospel (whoever wrote it) might well have been saying that the Logos was also a GOD as YHWH was a GOD sort of like Metathrone (the 'little YHWH') aka The Word, which he seemed to have used as a term for the Messiah of the Jews and may or may not have identfied this LOGOS (as Philo of Alexandria did, who wrote in the same area s the 4th gospel, i.e Egypt) with the figure of Chokhma (the so-called 'Wisdom' Goddess of Proverbs 8:22) i.e. seen as a SEPARATE GOD used by YHWH to create the universe.

For the Jewish idea of Chokhma ('goddess of wisdom') being a separate deity with YHWH at the time of creation (upon which John 1:1-2 is based) see Proverbs 8:22ff

YHWH owned me from the beginning of his doings before his works of ancient days for I was established from eternity yea I was birthed from the very Beginning, before the earth ever existed !

I was there before the depths came to be, when there were no fountains abounding with water, Yea, I came forth before the mountains were made
before the hills were set up Even before he made the land, nor the fields,
nor the highest part of the mounds of the earth !

When he stretched out the heavens, I was there: I existed when he set a compass upon the face of Tehom. When he established the clouds above:
when he girded the fountains of the deep When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass their set limits ! Yea, I was near at his side when he appointed the foundations of the earth even as one of his own children !" &tc.

Whether the author of Psalm 110 had the widsom goddess Chockmah in mind when he used the term 'adonoi' (my Lord the king) is doubtful but it shows how YHWH in preExilic writings often had beings around him even the clan-chief of Israel with whom he could communicate directly in some way: Psalm 110: 1 e.g. YHWH said to my lord (the king), sit down until I have made your enemies your footstool !

The point (Psalm 110 or not) is that Judaeism never really rid itself of the polytheism it inherited from the pre-Jewish Canaanite 'pagan' religions which it absorbed after invasion--even after Ezra's radical 'monotheistic' reforms post 430 BC---and we still hear of 'the gods' mentioined often in the Dead Sea literature and also fairly widespread in the mediaeval 'jewish' (!) Kaballah which introduces so many ideas that are foreign to 'traditional' post Exilic Jewish monotheism.

Unfortunately most persons discussing the material on this thread cannot read Kaballistic or Dead Sea Scroll material in their original languages so have repeatedly spewed nonsense and unsupported superstition with absolutely nothing to back it up.

I hope this will change !!

Originally posted by oliveoil
Not to hammer away at the JWs but,

How come the watchtower's organization Awake! August 22,1978 issue
Refers to Jehovah God as the "ALPHA AND OMEGA".

Then in their issue of the Watchtower October 1, 1978 page 15
they Refer to Jesus Christ as the "ALPHA AND OMEGA".

correct me if I a wrong, but can their be more than one "ALPHA AND OMEGA"?


These are the same people that say their translation of the bible is a the true translation.

below is the Watchtower article of OCT 1st 1978 pages 13 - 19. would you please show me exactly where it makes that claim?

“Keep on the Watch”
“Keep on the watch and pray continually, that you may not enter into temptation.”—Matt. 26:41.
WHAT was the occasion when Jesus spoke those words? It was at the time of the greatest crisis in his life on earth—on the eve of his betrayal, arrest, trial and execution. That day would prove to be the most important in human history. The events about to take place would lead to the salvation of all mankind. On that day, Jesus would give his life in sacrifice. As a Son who served in faithfulness to the end, he would be able to report back to his Father with his dying words: “It has been accomplished!”—John 19:30.

2 However, what were Jesus’ apostles doing? They had just shared with their Master in his instituting the Memorial of his death. Though not appreciating its significance, they knew that it was a very serious occasion. Yet, as he prayed, there in the garden of Gethsemane, they fell asleep! He had said to them: “My soul is deeply grieved, even to death. Stay here and keep on the watch with me.” However, not just once, but three times, he returned to find them slumbering. On the third occasion, Jesus exclaimed: “At such a time as this you are sleeping and taking your rest! Look! The hour has drawn near.” And at that moment his enemies were upon him!—Matt. 26:36-47.
3 Today we stand on the threshold of another major event in the history of mankind—the “great tribulation,” which will reach its climax in “the war of the great day of God the Almighty” at Har–Magedon. (Matt. 24:21; Rev. 7:14; 16:14, 16) It is the time of all times to keep awake! And yet the very prophecy that describes that oncoming war warns of persons who may not stay awake. This warning is sandwiched right in between mention of “the war of the great day of God the Almighty” and “Har–Magedon.” It is the Lord Jesus Christ himself who gives the warning: “Look! I am coming as a thief. Happy is the one that stays awake and keeps his outer garments, that he may not walk naked and people look upon his shamefulness.” Those in the priestly service of God today, and also the “great crowd,” must be careful not to lose their garments of identification. And what is it that identifies them as God’s servants today? Why, it is their zealous works, as they talk with people at their homes and in public places, and their practicing in their lives the same fine Christian principles that they recommend to others. For a servant of God to fall asleep spiritually would bring him great shame. He would be stripped of his identity as a witness of the true God. This would be disastrous on the eve of “the war of the great day of God the Almighty.”—Rev. 16:14-16.
FIGHT SPIRITUAL DROWSINESS
4 Conditions on earth have never been more dangerous. Political leaders acknowledge this fact. Anarchy and violence are mushrooming around the earth. Even from the worldly viewpoint, the present system of things is racing downhill fast, and is in danger of destruction in the foreseeable future. But from God’s viewpoint, where does this system stand? Jehovah declares that he will smash it to pieces while it is still a ‘going concern.’ (Dan. 2:44, 45) That will need to be very soon, so fast are things deteriorating in this age of crime and terror.
5 The Lord Jesus Christ prophesied plainly concerning our day. Repeatedly in these prophecies, he emphasized the need for our keeping awake. Here are some of his sayings, as variously reported:
“Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.”—Matt. 24:42.
“Prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.”—Matt. 24:44.
“Keep on the watch, therefore, because you know neither the day nor the hour.”—Matt. 25:13.
“You, then, watch out; I have told you all things beforehand.”—Mark 13:23.
“Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is.”—Mark 13:33.
“Keep on the watch, for you do not know when the master . . . is coming.”—Mark 13:35.
“What I say to you I say to all, Keep on the watch.”—Mark 13:37.
“Happy are those slaves whom the master on arriving finds watching!”—Luke 12:37.
“Keep ready, because at an hour that you do not think likely the Son of man is coming.”—Luke 12:40.
“Suddenly that day [will] be instantly upon you as a snare. For it will come in upon all those dwelling upon the face of all the earth. Keep awake, then.”—Luke 21:34-36.
6 Also, in his final revelation concerning “the things that must shortly take place,” Jesus again stresses the suddenness with which he comes:
“I am coming to you quickly . . . I am coming quickly. Keep on holding fast what you have.”—Rev. 2:16; 3:11.
“Look! I am coming quickly. . . . Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me. . . . Yes; I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 22:7, 12, 20)
In response to these last expressions of our Master, surely each one of us joins with the apostle John in saying: “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.”
7 Make no mistake! This world is fast moving toward its foretold end. It is in its death throes. It is openly stated that many of the great cities are dying. But Jehovah will put them out of their misery before they can die their natural death. We must remain alert, ready for the great day that so many of Jehovah’s prophets have described.—Isa. 2:12, 17; Jer. 30:7; Joel 2:11; Amos 5:18-20.
8 The prophet Zephaniah, who was a prince in David’s line, declared:
“‘Keep yourselves in expectation of me,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘till the day of my rising up to the booty, for my judicial decision is to gather nations, for me to collect together kingdoms, in order to pour out upon them my denunciation, all my burning anger; for by the fire of my zeal all the earth will be devoured.’” (Zeph. 3:8)
That day of Jehovah’s “burning anger” is drawing perilously close. Jesus’ own great prophecy concerning “the conclusion of the system of things” has now had its remarkable fulfillment in our 20th century since 1914. We clearly see militaristic elements of that “disgusting thing,” the UN organization, poised to wreak havoc on the realm of Christendom. The socialistic powers make no secret about their hatred for religion—“the opium of the people” as they call it. Make no mistake! At God’s due time, the “horns” of the scarlet-colored wild beast, the UN, will turn on the world empire of false religion—that longtime blasphemer of Jehovah’s name—to devastate and destroy her.—Matt. 24:15; Rev. 17:3-6, 16.
9 The “great tribulation” will no doubt be a faith-testing time for God’s own people here on earth. For the “ten horns” will battle also against the Lord Jesus Christ, who is “Lord of lords and King of kings.” (Rev. 17:14) These earthly powers cannot touch him up in heaven, so whom else will they attack but his faithful representatives here on the earth, and particularly the remnant of anointed witnesses of Jehovah? But they will not succeed! “The Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him will do so.” Revelation 19:11-21 gives details of the conquest of the political powers of earth by that “King of kings and Lord of lords.”
THE HORSEMEN ARE RIDING
10 The mighty conqueror at Har–Magedon fights from heaven. The apostle John envisaged him riding a white horse, in symbol of righteous warfare. He said: “I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness.” That war will result in blessings for lovers of righteousness. (Rev. 19:11) Earlier in the Revelation, John recorded another vision of the same horseman, in these words: “I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.” (Rev. 6:2) Here, then, we have the vision of Jesus’ coming into Kingdom power in 1914, not as a helpless babe in a manger, or a lifeless corpse on a stake, but as the mightiest warrior ever to take the field of battle. (Rev. 11:15; Matt. 25:31) We can have absolute confidence that this “King of kings” will conquer on our behalf.
11 However, other horsemen are seen in the vision. No mention is made of their conquering, but, rather, of victimizing mankind. Conquest is reserved alone for the rider of the white horse, for it is righteousness that will triumph with him. But what did John say about those other riders? “Another came forth, a fiery-colored horse; and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him.” (Rev. 6:4) Here is depicted fiery, bloody warfare of the kind that first erupted in 1914, in what historians labeled the “Great War.” But the slaughter was four times as great when the “great sword” came to be wielded in the catastrophic World War II, from 1939 to 1945. And violence continues to erupt throughout the earth. From 1914 on, there has been no real peace, as the red horse keeps up his fearsome gallop. Although Jehovah’s Witnesses are neutrals to the fighting, even they have suffered directly or indirectly from the violence, persecution and hardship that accompany this taking of “peace away from the earth.”

12 The wakeful John saw still another horseman riding into the vision. “Look! a black horse; and the one seated upon it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard a voice . . . say: ‘A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the olive oil and the wine.” (Rev. 6:5, 6) This third horseman symbolizes famine, and with famine there goes food rationing, as in a time of total warfare. Even the very essentials, the wheat and the barley, are on short supply. The wealthy get jittery, lest their luxuries, such as ‘oil and wine,’ be taken away. This horseman has ridden devastatingly through the earth since 1914. Inflation, spiraling prices, the shaky monetary system and the energy crisis all have to do with his headlong gallop. Nevertheless, Jehovah’s own people should not be discouraged by any short rations or economic hardships that they are compelled to endure temporarily. Remember, the rider of the white horse is out in front, and will end such things.
13 However, still another horseman appears. John gives this description: “I saw, and, look! a pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Hades was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.” (Rev. 6:8) Here is the last of the riders, and a gruesome one, for he brings devastating sickness to the earth. He got away to a head start following World War I when he killed some 20 million people with the Spanish flu in 1918-1919. And this horseman is still at the gallop. Despite commendable advances in the field of medicine, the human race is still suffering epidemics today. The intake of pills and other remedies is skyrocketing. But increasing heart attacks, strokes, cancer, VD and countless other afflictions keep bringing many into the clutches of Hades, the common grave of all mankind. Especially in this “time of the end,” Hades (Sheol in Hebrew) is not saying “Enough!” (Prov. 30:15, 16) As illness-prone humans, Jehovah’s people have suffered, too, from the deadly ride of the pale horse. But they know the reason for their physical sicknesses, and are equipped to endure cheerfully in the knowledge that Jesus’ ransom will result soon in the removal of all such epidemics—even the horseman Death himself. Although they may fall victim to Hades (the grave), their resurrection into a righteous new order is assured.—John 5:28, 29.
14 The ride of the horsemen is clearly in evidence today. Total warfare, food shortages, epidemics and wholesale death are now the ominous experience of all mankind. But it is only those who see with the eye of faith that perceive the white horse, with the all-conquering “King of kings,” the crowned Bowman. How grateful we should be for this faith-strengthening vision! It should stimulate us to be very active in witnessing concerning these things. In this, we can be loyal to our commission from Jehovah after the example of Jesus, who came to be called “Faithful and True”—“the faithful and true witness.”—Rev. 3:14; 19:11.
DO NOT BE SIDETRACKED!
15 The world does not believe that its end is at hand. It would like to dissuade us from believing that, too. But whom will you believe—their word or God’s Word? It is God’s Word that makes it plain that we are in “the conclusion of the system of things.” Not even the nuclear armament of the “god of fortresses”—glorified by the “king of the north”—can stand against the all-conquering “King of kings.”—Dan. 11:38, 45.
16 The apostle Paul extends fine counsel to any who may have become drowsy, saying:
“It is already the hour for you to awake from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became believers. The night is well along; the day has drawn near. Let us therefore put off the works belonging to darkness and let us put on the weapons of the light.” (Rom. 13:11, 12)
The weapons of the light are well known to us, for it has been our grand privilege to use them in proclaiming “this good news of the kingdom” in all the earth as a witness.—Matt. 24:14; Eph. 6:11-17.
17 However, what of “the works belonging to darkness”? These are the worldly works, the things that materialistic people delight to do without thought of God and his way of light. So we should avoid them. “As in the daytime let us walk decently, not in revelries and drunken bouts, not in illicit intercourse and loose conduct, not in strife and jealousy.” (Rom. 13:13) These are the worldly things that would creep into our Christian lives and into the congregation if we permitted it. They are to be guarded against. In more prosperous lands, people generally attach great importance to leisure and material things. In many places, the working week becomes progressively shorter, the love of pleasures correspondingly greater, and pressure is exerted on God’s people to become like the world. Will we meet this challenge in the Christian spirit of self-sacrifice?
18 If we are active in God’s service, keeping alert and awake for that service, then we will have no time to get tangled up with “revelries and drunken bouts,” with “illicit intercourse and loose conduct.” Our love for Jehovah and his service, and placing these first, will act as a protection. (Matt. 6:33) With our minds on spiritual matters, and on developing the fruitage of the spirit, we will be humble and understanding in our relations with our families and with our brothers. We will avoid “strife and jealousy.”
19 The apostle Paul continues: “Put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not be planning ahead for the desires of the flesh.” (Rom. 13:14) What a fine example, indeed, we have in the Lord Jesus Christ! Throughout his ministry on earth he was wide awake to the grand privilege of doing Jehovah’s will. Never did he deviate one moment from his whole-souled service in making known to others his Father’s name. Even on the day that he must die, how selfless and self-sacrificing he was in packing into every available moment of his remaining hours worthwhile, needed instruction for his disciples! (John chaps. 13 to 17) When Jesus was nearing the end on the torture stake, he refused the drug that might have eased his agony. He wanted to preserve his senses fully, as an integrity-keeper to the end.—Matt. 27:34.
20 May all of us be counted along with those who “put on the Lord Jesus Christ,” following his steps closely. (1 Pet. 2:21; Matt. 16:24, 25) By planning ahead for spiritual things, not the fleshly, we can keep wide awake in Jehovah’s service as did Jesus. Let us keep on the watch, therefore, filling our lives with Kingdom service right up until the hour that the “Son of man” comes to execute judgment. Great will be our reward!

Originally posted by oliveoil
This book is nothing but a corrupt sectarian paraphrase used only by the Watchtower Societies Jahovah Witnesses and no one else.

The Watchtower Organization is the biggest threat to Christianity there is.

correction. the watchtower organization is a threat to christendom. they have been exposing the churches hypocracy for over 100 years

Originally posted by Sigismundus
Actually if you knew the first thing about the sorry state of the MSS evidence of the New Testament you would see IMMEDIATELY that your god did NOT protect his 'word' because there is NO SINGLE TEXT that IS his word...just 5446 Greek manuscripts (hand copied and hand-altered, many of them deliberately !) which are copies of copies of copies of copies of really bad copies of copies of defective copies of bad copies of really bad copies----so what you basically have is junk data.

So it would be absolutely impossible for any thinking person with even a BASIC understanding of the immense problems of this material in the original languages (as Bart Erhman found out, the hard way !) to even THINK that he HAS IN HIS POSSESSION the word of any clan-god, whether it be the clan god of post-Exilic Israel or Vishnu or Kali or Isis or Serapis or Wodin.

Bart Erhman is a dissenting voice. not many scholars agree with him.

he also exaggerates his findings. ive read some of his claims and alot of them are pure rubbish.

there is not reason to say that you cant find the truth among the transcripts

Originally posted by oliveoil
Not to hammer away at the JWs but,

How come the watchtower's organization Awake! August 22,1978 issue
Refers to Jehovah God as the "ALPHA AND OMEGA".

Then in their issue of the Watchtower October 1, 1978 page 15
they Refer to Jesus Christ as the "ALPHA AND OMEGA".

correct me if I a wrong, but can their be more than one "ALPHA AND OMEGA"?


These are the same people that say their translation of the bible is a the true translation.

The Alfa and the Omega you say: Two letters defined by three words, six syllables and 13 letters made up from 34 lines, you might go as far as you can. Just like anyone sitting around a round table is both the first and the last, how any point in a circle is both the beginning and the end of that circle, God is the first and the last. What started this and what's gonna end it. Or how the priest comes as the first person to church on sSunday and leaves as the last person, he was the first and the last, representing God, that Sunday. However, the cleaning lady would probably already be there when the priest comes, and leaves after he went, pick your hero/heroin....

[edit on 28/10/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]

This is a very well thought out explaination/revelation. Is this the result of
a group study? I have not heard this taught anywhere. Wonderful job
none the less. You get a star and flag and cookie. amd thank you for
sharing.

[edit on 28-10-2009 by randyvs]