The Two Jehovahs of Psalm 110

reply to post by oliveoil

You have a u2u - Please click here.

TheRedneck
ATS Forum Moderator

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by oliveoil

You have a u2u - Please click here.

TheRedneck
ATS Forum Moderator

If you sent me a u2u I did not receive it.

reply to post by oliveoil

I just sent another one. You should have 4 from me now.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

TheRedneck
ATS Forum Moderator

Originally posted by oliveoil
The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost. (I believe them to be one) Either by using received text or critical Text.

What if the Son had issues with the Father and the Spirit was far off on another globe? Who could sign the order?

[edit on 1/11/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]

To oliveoil, props on honoring the Sabbath of the Lord as I do. You are, however, falling into the trap of the trinity doctrine. Three things being one? How is that if Jesus prayed to the Father because if they are the same, He was praying to Himself. And, as miriam said, can you pour someone? It is the translators to english that put masculinity in the Holy Spirit...ie, He, Him, etc. It should read more like "It, or The."

To Neo, God bless you on the whole "Jesus is YHWH" thing. The JW here throw fits over that. I still think you were rude to put me in the category of the babylonians and egyptians... ie, the Pagans. I simply stated that I believe Jesus and the Father are two separate Gods working together for the common cause of bringing mankind into their family. The two of them create the Elohim, the God. Better way of looking at it is like a mob gansta... calling it the "Family". That's my beliefs and I am a Christian. Don't compare me with the pagans again.... I kindly ask you.

To miriam, you are confused about the word God in my post. It's because Jesus and the Father are both referred to as God. Which of the two I'm referring to is all in the context. Even you agree that Jesus is A GOD. I posted what I did to give you an idea of what I believe and why I believe it. I didn't say you had to agree. To me it's like a complete understanding... like the sun started shining in my empty void and filled it up. I've never seen so clearer than I do now. I use a combination of faith and logic which is commanded in the bible. I believe it was James who said faith without works is of inequity. I believe works to be a combination of spreading the knowledge to those who have an ear to hear and to follow faith to guide my knowledge in the right path.

To bluejay, I am contributing to the debunking of the fraud of trinity that oliveoil is under so count me in too.

To everyone else, thank you for contributing and for the stars and flags. This has been my most awarded post (not that popularity matters). I already recieved two u2u's by the mods with 500 extra bonus points each. I contribute it to everyone's contribution to the thread. I knew this thread would be contraversial, which is what I like. Discuss with taste and decorum and let's all have a good, fun debate. God bless you all.

Originally posted by Locoman8
To Neo, God bless you on the whole "Jesus is YHWH" thing. The JW here throw fits over that.

Hehe, YesHuWaH in English translitteration shows a hidden message in the word yeshuwah the word from which the name of Jesju (Yeshuah) was made. The Tetragrammathon shines through, the Name of God. First and second century Jewish "contextual records" (in lack of better words, need to find a book to site a source for this) suggest that Jesju was refered to as YHWH/JHVH in the Aramaic gospel texts which are now lost, due to Roman and Jewish search and destroy policy on Christians and everything Christian.

I still think you were rude to put me in the category of the babylonians and egyptians... ie, the Pagans. I simply stated that I believe Jesus and the Father are two separate Gods working together for the common cause of bringing mankind into their family. The two of them create the Elohim, the God. Better way of looking at it is like a mob gansta... calling it the "Family". That's my beliefs and I am a Christian. Don't compare me with the pagans again.... I kindly ask you.

Fair enough, I refered to Enki and Enlil in the purpose to demonstrate how you can not have two lords or gods, for you would love one and hate the other, and they themselves would eventually end up in a fight or the classic twin hero/god scenario where one hates or kills the other. Cain and Abel, Remus and Romulus, Enki and Enlil, the oligarchs of Sparta and ancient Rome..... Polarity, dualism etc. are not good concepts of a relationship. There is only one God and his name is Jahveh Elohim, or one of his millions of other names, or simply Lord God.

All his children pray to him, even Jesju and if he'd denied that, I'd simply say "Yes you are". As far as I'm concerned even Satan prays to JHVH Elohim from time to time. Who the Father is? Well, like John the Baptist probably would say, it is he who existed before I was born who lives after I have lived. Or like Jesju would say: "God is the God of the Living, he is the God who Is". The reason Jesju called him the Father probably has more to do with psychology and a paternal complex due to stories fed to him that his father was Gabriel the arch angel and what not, a stray Samaritan even, and no less than two different Josephs involved in the actual parenting and upbringing, with the first of them old enough to have been his great grandfather. No wonder why there may have been a paternal complex in young Jesju, infact, had he lived today and confessed hearing his father talking to him in his head, and explained how he believed he could perform miracles and concidered himself to be God's only begotten Son. Well, he would end up with a diagnosis under the schizophrenia umbrella, no doubt.

[edit on 2/11/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Ok guys it is time to say exactly what you believe for purpose of clarity

Who is this?
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/85fcc0732b0e.jpg[/atsimg]

We all know it is a God.

What do you believe?

My belief is these 4 Hebrew characters of the Tetragrammaton represent the Almighty God who is a singular being/entity who has no equal. To me it does not represent Jesus Christ in any way.

Hi Blue Jaye

To judge from how it was 'vowelled out' in the Greek Septuaginta (c. 200BCE), the name of the post-exilic clan god of Yisro'el was probably pronounced something like "Yahweh", although the name seems to have morphed over time (Yah, Yahu in some early Psalms and yehei-esher-yehei' in Exodus chapter 3 at the socalled Burning Bush Scene...)

Post exilic Jews (avoiding the publication of the pronunciation, so that it would not be abused by non-Yahwists in casting Magick spells against the clan god himself -- since in antiquity knowing the 'true name' of someone or some god gave a magus power over them) substituted 'edonai' when they came across the unpointed 'tetragrammaton' YHWH (so they would often pronounce the title outloud (when they saw the YHWH in any texts) as 'adonoi', 'my lord, which the King James Version wrote in all CAPS as THE LORD).

Scholars merely refer to the 'Name' (which Rebbes call 'HaShem', the name') it as 'Yahweh' referring to the post Exilic clan god of Yisrael following Ezra's Yahwistic reforms in BCE 420 or so when the aleph-beth was changed from paleoHebrew letters to the now more familiar Aramaic square letter writing system.


At any rate, YHWH was NOT a universal god, but only a local clan god of certain semi nomadic tribelets which eventually took control of the Jerusalem cult after the Yahwistic right-wingers came back from Babylon in the 490's BCE and the 2nd Temple was being rebuilt to YHWH alone (no more Yahweh and his Asherah, i.e. his wife) after the Exile...only 4 of the 24 priestly families exiled to Babylon in the 580s BCE ever came back to palestine---the most ardent of the ardent Yahwists---and it is THEIR versions of the texts &tc that became the Old Testament canon after the year 90CE at the socalled Rabinnic Council of Javneh--after Jerusalem was ground to powder by the Romans in 70CE during the Failed Jewish Revolt (the 1st of 2 failed revolts) and occurring not before some 60 years after the death of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean (BCE 12 to CE 36)...

At any rate, YHWH was not a universal god at the beginning (only gradually over time assumed this position in the pantheon) and certainly NOT WIDELY worshipped in Eretz Yisro'el as 'the sole god of the universe' until long after the Exile (read II kings for a taste of the number of clan-chiefkings who worshipped other gods, often right besides him, including 'King Solomon' (Jedediah, son of David) !!

Just a little background is all...

The below quote is from the first chapter of the Sefer Yetzirah or the Book of Formation/Creation, one of the central books within Kabalah. The cited text explains the ten sephirot connected by the 22 beams of the Tree of Life. It suggests a ten dimentional space-time and gathers alchemical principles of the antiquity with modern math and physics:

9. These are the ten emanations of number. One is the Spirit of the Living God, blessed and more than blessed be the name of the Living God of Ages. The Holy Spirit is his Voice, his Spirit, and his Word.
10. Second, from the Spirit he made Air and formed for speech twenty-two letters, three of which are mothers, A, M, SH, seven are double, B, G, D, K, P, R, T, and twelve are single, E, V, Z, CH, H, I, L, N, S, O, Tz, Q, but the spirit is first among these. Third, Primitive Water. He also formed and designed from his Spirit, and from the void and formless made earth, even as a rampart, or standing wall, and varied its surface even as the crossing of beams. Fourth, from the Water, He designed Fire, and from it formed for himself a throne of honor, with Auphanim, Seraphim, Holy Animals, and ministering Angels, and with these he formed his dwelling, as is written in the text "Who maketh his angels spirits and his ministers a flaming fire." (Psalm civ. 4.)
11. He selected three letters from the simple ones, and sealed them as forming his great Name, I H V and he sealed the universe in six directions.
Five.- He looked above, and sealed the height, with I H V.
Six.- He looked below, and sealed the deep, with I V H.
Seven.- He looked forward, and sealed the East, with H I V.
Eight.-He looked backward, and sealed the West, with V H I.
Nine.- He looked to the right, and sealed the South, with V I H.
Ten.-He looked to the left, and sealed the North, with H V 1.
12. These are the ten ineffable existences, the spirit of the living God, Air, Water, Fire, Height and Depth, East and West, North and South.

Source: www.sacred-texts.com...



[edit on 2/11/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


I believe YHWH is the Old Testament Word of God and New Testament Jesus of Nazareth. I say this because Jesus came in the flesh to reveal the Father. He also made it evident (though some JW's disagree with me) that He was YHWH when He claimed to be the "I AM" of the book of Exodus. He was present with the Father from before creation. As the Word of God, He was the one who spoke to all the patriarchs and prophets of the OT. In most cases, this voice being heard by these people was YHWH. I'm just linking peices of the puzzle and determining that YHWH is indeed Jesus. You don't have to agree with me but it's what I believe.

reply to post by Locoman8

Ok you have explained the son and his names.

Now tell us what is the Fathers name?

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by Locoman8

 

Ok you have explained the son and his names.

Now tell us what is the Fathers name?

The Father would be Abraham. His name means "Father of Multitudes". Jesju even explains how we must hope to end at Abrahams place in She'ol, since he will take care of us. Jesju ascended into becoming a high priest in the same order as Abraham's priest, Melchizedek, he talks of the children of Abraham in one sentance and the children of God in the next, clearly showing they are the same lot. No Abraham, no Israel, no Mosjeh, no Jesju, no monotheism. Don't be confused by how the time seems to go back and forth, for it does all the time. Time is relative to movement, we can speed up and slow down time according to general relativity, we can even communicate and allow computers to calculate something before the transistors inside have even been lit in quantum theory, which also allows for teleportation, which is essencial to time travel. When we have reached a certain level of scientific knowledge, we might one day send a robot back in time to create the universe.....

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


We like to call Him "The Eternal". The Father goes by no names in the NT except "Father" or "God". "God" in greek translates to "Theos" which is a general word for all gods. So, there is no real name to go by in the NT since Jesus simply addressed Him as "Father" or "God". I have also explained how there are possibilites of the Father and Son being both Jehovah if you look at the Father (Almighty God of gods) as the "unseen" Jehovah and the Son as the "pysical" Jehovah. It's all on how one decides to interpret it. I view it as the Father being unknown in the OT and Jesus coming to reveal the Father in the NT so the first time we see the Father as a personality or character in the bible is in the book of Matthew.

reply to post by Locoman8


So is it fair to say the Father is Jehovah Prime/Alpha to you? Since the thread title is the TWO Jehovah's.

Also that would mean that to you Jesus=Jehovah/Beta.

So let me ask you this then, how do you reconcile Psalm 83:18? (KJV)

That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Simply put, in the Old Testament, Jehovah was the God of Israel and for the purpose of future fulfillments, it remained so. Jesus as Jehovah was teaching the Israelites to worship no one other than He and that He is the Eternal. Idols are material and were made by man but Jehovah is forever and cannot be destroyed. That was the whole message.

As far as two Jehovahs goes, I feel it's a theory and one that can be justified in different ways but I am not telling you without doubt that there are two Jehovahs. There are two almighty Gods who are the Father and the Son. The Son (Jehovah/Jesus/Word) is the working force behind everything while the Father is the battery for that working force. Just like in a toy or electronic device, the battery is unseen, though it plays the most important role... it makes the device work.

The battery = The Father
The device = Jehovah/Jesus/Word
The on/off switch = The Holy Spirit (non-trinity of course).

I'm sorry... I love using analogies like that. Does what I say make any sense to you? I understand you not agreeing with me. You are a JW and we do follow very different theological views. I do feel like the JW have a closer understanding to my views than the protestant or catholic faiths. We agree on hell, the soul, christianized pagan holidays, false doctrine of the trinity, etc. Our differences lie in how we choose to follow God's laws and commandments, pre-existence of Christ and who YHWH/Jehovah is. Once again, I hope this helps explain what I believe and why I believe it. God bless you.

reply to post by Locoman8


Ok.

The battery = The Father
The device = Jehovah/Jesus/Word
The on/off switch = The Holy Spirit (non-trinity of course)

My thoughts on your analogy

The Battery=The Holy Spirit
The Device=Jesus Christ/Word
The On/Off Switch=Jehovah God

It is the father that controls the power of the holy spirit, a power source itself is not alive, but the one with his hand on the switch is.

I put it this way so that you can see how are viewpoints aren't that far off really.
Anyways on this we will have a slight disagreement.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Well, I used the battery for the Father because you can't see the battery, which makes everything work but I get what you're saying. I actually added the on/off switch just to throw in the Holy Spirit. I think leaving the HS out of the picture, my analogy would have worked better. Yes you are right that we have more in common than thought though we have slight differences on who or what God is. The way I see it, as long as we're worshipping the Father and Son, we will have favor with Them.

Can we please stay on topic instead of displaying your remote control as the mysterios explanation for Trinity(tm) doctrine? I bring in the restart button which is really the god Zapp who lent his name to a spy camera producer during the War. Get real, you sound like kids playing with something you have no idea what is.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


You can shove that sarcasm where the sun don't shine too. We are on topic here. And we weren't explaining the trinity. We were using analogies of God, Jesus and the Holy spirit. That doesn't mean we were trying to explain a trinity. Don't tell me to stay on topic in my own thread as if you were the one in charge of it. Going off-topic involves something like the many posts you made on page 5 talking about all the pagan gods. I don't mean any disrespect but you fired at me first. Don't hijack my thread just because you don't like a conversation within it between two people.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by v01i0

 

"I AM" refers to Jehovah being "ever existent" meaning He has always been.

I Am and always have been existent..... I am who I am..... I am that I am.

I have to somewhat disagree with you here. I can't comment very much on the details of the bible and the different translations etc. But the significance of "I AM" I do know about, and it has HUGE implications in understanding. You aren't wrong exactly, but there is so much more being expressed there.

It is also the basis for understanding the "2 gods". Father and son, son consisting of flesh and spirit. Flesh = dead, father and son = life.

In my understanding, I am that I am was one of the first and most basic understanding I was given. I don't see how one can understand how the father is within Jesus, or within others without proper understanding of the significance of "I am".

This is very difficult, if not impossible to explain to someone, but I will attempt it. It really needs to be experienced. It is the father within you that gives you the sense of "I am".

I guess I need to set this up, please bear with me, I just can't express how hard these things are to express, this is heavy into the spirit side of things.

So, to get us started I guess we will start with the Logos/Word that makes creation. That Logo's/Word is not the bible - the bible doesn't make creation etc.

The Logo's is Logic. It is pure logic. It is the same thing as the programming that goes into these forums. These forums are based on logic, they are created on nothing but logic and so forth.

In a program, you start with nothing - a void of sorts. And from that void with logic you can create entire virtual worlds. When you look at a video game, that is what it is - just logic.

That is not to say we are a computer program, or that the universe is a computer program. Just that the foundations of existence is based on logic, or the logos/word as the bible put it.

With me so far? I can go into more detail on that part if you want.

Now, if you look in genesis of the creation story, it talks about the spirit of the father descends into creation. This is important in understanding - what is flesh is flesh, and what is spirit is spirit.

See, if we take the above program we "created" with logic - it is not "alive". That program is dead. It does not come "alive" until the creation is observed. If it is not observed, it does not become "real", or a "reality". And so we see this happen in Genesis, when the spirit descends onto creation and brings it to "life".

So, if you created a program - it would not come to life until you or some consciousness viewed/observed/experienced it. And that is also true of our reality/creation.

Still with me? Hope so, if not I will be happy to go over any points.

Now this also tells us what is life and what is dead. The life in creation is the consciousness that views/observes and experiences it. The spirit that descends onto creation. God of the living = god of the spirit, not that of the flesh - which is dead without the father within(spirit).

So when god says - I am that I am, it is telling you that he is the spirit within. That he is that which is consciousness, that is by him that all things are observed.

Now then, what is "you"? What is that makes you? When you look at people who are materialist, they may define themselves as material things. They will define themselves by their accomplishments and material possessions. Ask them who or what they are, and it's their job, their home, their car etc. But journey beyond even the materialistic in society. Is not your body a possession as well? "Your arm", your "mind" and so forth.

So you can not define yourself without defining a possession. All things you will use to define yourself - even a soul, is really just a possession. And so when it comes down to what it is that possesses these things, what it is of "you" that possesses them - you come down to 1 unavoidable answer: I am that I am. What it means "to be". Conscious, able to observe, experience and understand.

This Jesus knew, this Jesus understood, this Jesus expresses over and over. John 14:20 is a direct expression of this, and talks about the day when one experiences and comes to understanding this.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

So, the I am within you is a result of the father. If the father is not within one, then they have no soul. They are no different than robots, and are bound and slave to the logic they are given to follow. Thus why when people "sell their soul" they become puppets, do not think and are slave to those who tell them what to do.

It is when someone experiences this, then by default many other things Jesus has said and done becomes common sense. It is an experience, and many other things become obvious as a result of it.

But when you realize what is truly you, then you will know and understand why death is not "real". Death of the flesh will happen, but not death of the soul(only the father can kill a soul, which is not what most people would think). It just plain makes sense all of a sudden. When Jesus says fear not those who can kill the flesh, but that which can kill the soul - it makes perfect sense.

It is because the father is within, and that we are observers and such, that you have Psalm 82. We are all "gods". Jesus only ever quotes Psalm 82 in terms of if he is god - for a reason. Common knowledge for those who understand, as he did. He presents it as to ask why they even thought it was odd in the first place(John 10).

So the "I am that I am" is a founding part of understanding the holy. A founding part in understanding that which is spirit is spirit, and that which is flesh is flesh. Most people treat the spirit in that verse as just another flesh, because they do not understand.

Now when it comes to multiple "gods" and such, it is because the father is within all. The father is all knowing and the sum result of all consciousness that exists anywhere, in all time and so forth. Can't even really begin to express even what can be seen and understood, much less all those things beyond etc. Obviously, neither I or you have memory of creating the universe, thus neither of us is the father.

So the father is much greater than any of us. We have a limited perspective, it is the limited perspective that gives us this experience, time and so forth. But, in the end there is only 1 true god, 1 true father.

So it's father and son relationship there. Father gives to the son.

Jesus constantly says call no man your father, for the father is that which is in heaven. Matthew 7, how much will you father in heaven give those who ask, and Psalm 82 etc.

But I think you really have to experience these things for yourself, and that comes from seeking who you are, and things like that. The bible can't tell you who you are, even if it can say it.









[edit on 11/4/2009 by badmedia]