A question for political minded Christians.

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posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 11:32 AM
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Much has been written about The Founders ( of The United States) being Christian, and that they founded this as a Christian nation. In fact there is a thread here on this very subject right now. The thrust of the argument seems to be that there is no seperation of church and state, and that Christianity should be incorporated ( nor as principle, but as a faith), into American law. In my view this is just a thinly veiled attempt at establishing a theocracy. Usually this subject becomes a tedious exchange of quotes from the founders, but The Constitution holds the answer.
My question is this:
If the founders intent was to establish a Christian nationwhy did they not simply state that in The Constitution?
The Constitution does not contain the words "Christian", "Christ", "Jesus" or "God", and nowhere does it mention religion except to garantee religious freedom.
There is nothing in The Constitution at all, to indicate any dedication of the nations laws to embracing Christianity. Please don't quote individual founders to me, or cite other documents. The Constitution is the only basis of, and the standard of which ALL American law is measured. It seems plain to me that the founders purposly excluded any Christian language from The Constitution becuase it is law, and therefore did intend any law to endorse Christianity ( or any religion), and absolutly did not intend to establish a Christian nation.
We might also conclude that there was an intent to garantee freedom from religion in that The Constitution itself is free of any religious language.
Any answers Christians?

[edit on 13-10-2009 by OldDragger]

[edit on 13-10-2009 by OldDragger]




posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 12:16 PM
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An observation.
Todays Christians seem long on faith, low on logic.
It's interesting to me how the faithful simply ignore anything that contradicts their view. Hmmmmmmmmm



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 12:32 PM
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A great question for them. Still I don't understand why there needs to be conflict about it. We know what needs to be done to stop the madness, yet we cant all gather as a group and and down the 'pyramid'?? Divide & Conquer technique works perfectly in this nation.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 12:36 PM
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reply to post by ST3V3nice
 

Because today's fundamentalists want a theocracy. they have been led to believe that it is legal, and what our founders wanted. This has been done solely for political purposes, it's the origin of the "religious right". The Republicans have co opted Christianity simply to gain power.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 12:47 PM
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While your question is actually about Christians in the USA, I will wade in here as Christ-centred foreigner who knows your history better than most of you.

First, in the generation that drafted the Constitution there was a great reluctance to state the Name of God except in the explicitly appropriate context of worship. Frequently a term like "Providence" would be used in public discourse as a substitute for naming God as a person. These are not simply Deistic tendencies but rather more like the timbre of public conversation in the vaunted Square. A more direct appeal to the Deity is found in the Declaration of Independence, but the Constitution was a document meant to create something that had never existed, and the Framers had in mind not repeating the European mistakes of mischief that came from notions like the divine right of kings, to the idea of the Church as a sort of regulatory agency over and above nations, and to a general rejection of the ideas of patronage and the feudal systems of the past. (Of course, one would raise the matter of 'slavery' at this point, but that is another discussion.)

Now where do you go to find a clear expression of God (or Christ) in foundational documents? Go directly to the preambles of most of the States' constitutions. There one finds very clear expression of the religious sentiment of each former colony, commonwealth or state. The complete alienation of religious belief from the Public Square is never imagined in the work of the Framers of the USA Constitution or in the constitutions of the several States. At the same time the idea of an official State religion as in the case of the United Kingdom was an idea the Framers kicked to the curb with the rubbish.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 12:55 PM
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Now where do you go to find a clear expression of God (or Christ) in foundational documents? Go directly to the preambles of most of the States' constitutions. There one finds very clear expression of the religious sentiment of each former colony, commonwealth or state. The complete alienation of religious belief f

Preambles are not law. Again, there is a clear intent to exclude religious language from the law. Your attempt at context is appreciated, but does not change the fact that the writers of The Constitution were very careful in their language, and chose not to include any religious language or reference in that document.
The reason for that is clear, they did not found this country to be Christian nation.

[edit on 13-10-2009 by OldDragger]



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 01:08 PM
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The founders wanted freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.

Is your primary question that you think Christians believe America should be a Christian only nation? I'm a Christian, and I think all forms of religion within the bounds of the law should be free from persecution by the govt.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 01:10 PM
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The fact that many founders expressed religious belief in their personal lives and writings and even in Preambles and other non legal documents only makes the lack of religious expression more conspicuous in it's absence when it came to writing law.
This was carefully considered and very deliberate, they didn't found this country to be Christian, but went out of their way to be secular, thereby intending this to be a secular nation.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 01:13 PM
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reply to post by jjkenobi
 


Re read my original post. They did not intend government to either endorse or not endorse religion, IE: freedom from religion as far as government goes



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 01:14 PM
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I can shed some light on this, being politically minded and christian myself, the reason is we, the majority are christians in this nation (well claim to be) but in order to establish a free nation, they didn't want to indoctrinate or include a specific required religion. They wanted personal for everybody equally. America today, is not what The Found Fathers envisioned, I assure you that....



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 01:37 PM
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Christians are missing my point, and NOT answering my question.

If the founders wanted to establish this country as a Christian nation, why did they not simply say so in The Constitution?



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by OldDragger

Christians are missing my point, and NOT answering my question.

If the founders wanted to establish this country as a Christian nation, why did they not simply say so in The Constitution?


So you're looking for a Christian who believes the founding fathers wanted this to be a "Christian" nation. So far you haven't found any.

I believe they wanted a nation where citizens were free to practice THEIR religion, whatever it may be, free from persecution.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 02:06 PM
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I do not beleive any Christian of intelligence beleives this country was founded as "A Christian" country.

But speration of church and state or the practising of a state mandated religion is not the same as recognizing God.

One Nation under God, In God we trust.....etc...

Religion is mans way to finding God but is not God. Nowhere in any document of the founding fathers does it imply or intone that as a nation, we must ignore God or not ask for his protections.

I find the hypocrisy of removing the words God from courts, money, national anthems etc..by using the sepration of church and state clause as being intelectually biased and lacking the understanding of the differance between relgion and God.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 03:42 PM
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reply to post by fizzcola
 


"God", by definition is a religious concept.
What about people that don't believe in God?
Which "god" are you referring to?



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 03:54 PM
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reply to post by OldDragger
 




A question for political minded Christians.


As a Christian... though not necessarily one in practice, I think a lot of folks got this thing all wrong. The US was never intended to be, or has it ever been a Christian nation. But it has been for quite some time, a nation of (mostly) Christians.

The US is not a Christian theocracy. It is a popular Republic populated by a Christian majority. There's no sin in that from any perspective and no reason for anyone to panic.

...

[edit on 13-10-2009 by redoubt]



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 05:03 PM
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reply to post by redoubt
 


Gee, I don't think anyone is panicking.
But I do think there is a deliberate attempt at spreading misinformation by the right on this subject, and it's been a popular contention for years that seperation of church and state is a "liberal" invention to "take God out of everything".
I think the above view is shared by the majority of fundamentalists in America.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 05:28 PM
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reply to post by OldDragger
 


Well, the "western world" was predominantly "Christian". Islam was relegated mostly to the Near East, Buddhism to the Far East, and neither seemed to be spreading to the the Western Europeans. They were 98% some form of Christian. Their biggest disputes were Protestant versus Catholic, and interdenominational.

My question is why would they think to mandate what was close to 100%. Judaism was a tiny minority of those living in the West and less still of those moving to the colonies. Even if they wanted to mandate "Christianity" over Judaism they still wouldn't have thought it was necessary.

Much like "English" as our language. It probably did not occur to them.

All of that said, I'm glad there is no state religion. I would hate to have my religion sullied by the grotesque corporatism that calls itself our government these days.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 06:16 PM
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It did occur to them and was debated during the Constitutional Convention. I think it was Ehtan Allen that pitched a fit of their decision to not include Christianity. It also was hotly debated during the Lincoln administration.
The framers were very careful in their language, because they wanted a secular nation.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 06:42 PM
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Originally posted by OldDragger

It did occur to them and was debated during the Constitutional Convention. I think it was Ehtan Allen that pitched a fit of their decision to not include Christianity. It also was hotly debated during the Lincoln administration.
The framers were very careful in their language, because they wanted a secular nation.


In my haste, I think I did not articulate myself well. My point is that I don't think that the framers ever thought we would enter a time where the nation would be irreligious. I just do not think that would have occurred to them. If it had they might have added more protections, but I do not believe they would have endorsed a religion.

The framers were not "religionists", but many considered themselves "Christians" and/or admired Jesus. They did not want a theocracy, but I also do not think they ever intended that we would be hostile to religion.

The founders were not very religious, but they were all very vocal about spirituality, including Jefferson. It was his belief that God, not the state give divine laws of liberty. Was he a Baptist, a Presbyterian, a Methodist, etc? No, but he considered himself a Christian Deist.

Do I think he would want a government to be hostile to religion? No. No more than he would want a government to support a religion.

EDIT: And it was Luther Martin (to your above)

[edit on 13-10-2009 by A Fortiori]



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 06:47 PM
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I can't agree at all.
The idea that everyone was religious in the 1700's seems iffy.
Hostile to religion?
Hardly.
Their intent was to be neutral to religion, something that escapes the American fundamentalist. Being neutral and being hostile are two completley different things.But again, their personal beliefs were not incorporated into The Constitution, whatever those beliefs may have been.





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