The Pineal Gland, Seat of the Soul...

reply to post by sirnex


What gets me the most is the spiritual side of things, a lot of these things have now received naturalistic and reproducible answers to them, yet people don't even know or are willing to understand the mechanics behind it all.

once again, in no way am I trying to attack you, but can you please give me a few examples (emphasizing, "things that have received naturalistic and reproducible ANSWERS", not just naturalistic and reproducible THEORIES - ie. Alien Abduction Experience/Sleep Paralysis).

Thank you again for taking the time to respond.

reply to post by the_space_monkey


All of the examples would be considered theories, just about everything in science is a theory and not really an absolute truth. With what we're learning about the human brain and death we can explain NDE's a little better as well as OOBE's. All the psychic claims have been falsified when in a controlled setting. The fact that nothing spiritual has ever been proven as of yet. How can I believe in something that has never been proven to be possible or reproducible?

reply to post by sirnex


Personally, I don't want you to BELIEVE anything. I just think that there are gray area's on both sides. There will always be areas of doubt and room for dispute in any line of thinking (and this is where individuals on both sides of this argument begin to treat theory like gospel). Scientific and Spiritual thinking are both systems of theories, but they often get perverted into belief systems. Fundamentalist Christians/Muslims/Jews/etc. do this with religion, Atheists often do this with science, and Spiritualists/"New-Agers" pick and choose between the two but often end up with the same result.

You say that "psychic phenomenon has been proven fake or false in controlled settings", can you provide evidence for this? A study that DEFINITIVELY says psychic phenomenon does not exist, what-so-ever. I don't think you can.

Despite the room for doubt, you BELIEVE it does not exist.

Originally posted by the_space_monkey
reply to post by sirnex

 

Personally, I don't want you to BELIEVE anything. I just think that there are gray area's on both sides. There will always be areas of doubt and room for dispute in any line of thinking (and this is where individuals on both sides of this argument begin to treat theory like gospel). Scientific and Spiritual thinking are both systems of theories, but they often get perverted into belief systems. Fundamentalist Christians/Muslims/Jews/etc. do this with religion, Atheists often do this with science, and Spiritualists/"New-Agers" pick and choose between the two but often end up with the same result.

You say that "psychic phenomenon has been proven fake or false in controlled settings", can you provide evidence for this? A study that DEFINITIVELY says psychic phenomenon does not exist, what-so-ever. I don't think you can.

Despite the room for doubt, you BELIEVE it does not exist.

I think there is enough proof that says that in controlled settings they have proven without a doubt that psychic phenomenon has happened. Why would multiple governments spend so much time on remote viewing then?

Quotes:

"The term “remote viewing” came about in 1971 through experimentation conducted by Ingo Swann (who correctly remote viewed in 1973 that the planet Jupiter has rings, a fact later confirmed by space probes), Janet Mitchell, Karlis Osis and Gertrude Schmeidler."

"During the Cold War through the 1970s and 1980s, remote viewing was further developed by the US military and the CIA through such programs codenamed Sun Streak, Grill Flame and Star Gate. The government-sponsored remote viewing programs were successful, according to many who participated. Some of the now-declassified examples include the highly accurate and detailed descriptions of buildings and facilities hundred of miles from the remote viewer – including a crane assembly in the Soviet Union."

"The Government has tried so hard to conceal its Remote Viewing efforts, before trying to debunk it as a project that failed.

In 2001, former US Navy Commander (now Navy SEAL) L. R. Bresmseth submitted a paper on Remote Viewing entitled, “Unconventional Human Intelligence Support: Transcendant and Assymetric Warfare Implications of Remote Viewing” as part of his studies at Marine War College in Quantico, Virginia.

Bremsweth is acclaimed as having sensitively written an overview on the research, development, and operations involving the remote viewing operations conducted by the US Government from 1972 to 1995. His paper covers the reason why the US Government was interested in remote viewing due to Soviet research, and that the preliminary and subsequent scientific studies funded by the US Army, US Air Force, CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency were a success and that remote viewing for ‘transcendent warfare’ can be used beyond national intelligence, defense, and warfare."

Originally posted by Realtruth
Sirex,

Insanity is in your mind.

A dog chases it's tail, that is what thoughts are.

Words are labels to be interpreted.

Trying to prove anything besides numerical values, is subjective and objective.

When I said "Fact" I was being sarcastic. Facts don't exist. Fact is just a word.

Like I said, nothing is right or wrong, only thinking makes it so.

Originally posted by sirnex

Originally posted by Realtruth

Insanity comes from your own mind and your perception.

Great, so you accept that your being a little insane by not understanding what energy is.

Good or bad, physical or non-physical doesn't exist, only thinking makes it so.

Are you trying to say that our ability to think is preexistence prior to our birth? Can you prove that, have any evidence to validate that insane rambling?

[edit on 14-10-2009 by Realtruth]

I would have to agree with you 100% Realtruth =]

[edit on 15-10-2009 by 4stral4pprentice]

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by RemusUK

 

All I need to know at this particular point in the discussion is whether consciousness is a direct result of matter or if matter is a direct result of consciousness.

My life experiences have led me to say matter is a direct result of consciousness, it would make no sense to me the other way around! What are others views on this?

reply to post by 4stral4pprentice


How does one explain brain damage? Why doesn't the consciousness, which you all seem to think creates matter, just work regardless of damaged areas? In other words, what theories would allow for such a thing? Why doesn't consciousness grow back a lost arm? Why don't we see reality changing all the time with every conscious thought?

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by 4stral4pprentice

 

How does one explain brain damage? Why doesn't the consciousness, which you all seem to think creates matter, just work regardless of damaged areas? In other words, what theories would allow for such a thing? Why doesn't consciousness grow back a lost arm? Why don't we see reality changing all the time with every conscious thought?

These are some odd answers for me. No need in explaining something that is. Consciousness does work regardless of damage, it always is. I mean i can see without eyes and think without a physical brain, everyone who astral projects can too. Why doesn't it grow an arm back? I dont know... Why doesn't a rock do the same? Reality does change every moment, that i can see and know.

reply to post by 4stral4pprentice


Thank you for your answer... You've explained much in such few words and for that I am very thankful. At least now I know I wasn't wrong in anything I've previously said.

I apologize ahead of time if this turns out to be long. The realm this conversation is going to warrants hours of discussion.

First off, the pineal gland or third eye is a very important part of clarity and attainment. It is true that is is the key to all of our emotions and can be very dangerous. The popularization of things like yoga, tai chi and qigong in the western world has brought some distress to the traditional practitioners. With its popularization came an awareness of chakras and the pineal glands association with one of the most sacred chakras the third eye.

When just about everyone talks about their third eye being 'open' or awakened they really arent sure what they mean. If the third eye was truly open you would experience a major influx of emotion and, well, experience. A truly opened third eye can be very dangerous but, it has been the quest of life for people throughout the centuries and is truly achievable. What most people experience is heightened activity in that region.

You can awaken your pineal gland but to really do it can be very dangerous. The most famous method of this is the Kundalini Method. You can find a ton of videos on youtube about it but, none of them are the real thing. The real method to 'Awaken the Kundalini' will open the pineal but is an extremely closely guarded secret, very physically demanding and hard to do and has only been taught to a handful of people throughout time. Any person that knows anything about the methods to open the pineal gland will tell you that if you are not ready it can seriously harm you.

Continued....

Ok so about the element o science that inevitably got brought up.

All science is theory. Anything that has been proven is only in that state until someone else comes along with a theory that is more agreeable.

With all this we are really getting in to quantum mechanics.
There have been many studies that have essentially proven that matter is not physical and exists only because we are conscious of it. I am going to attempt to be brief but all of this really does need some time to go over the same stuff repeatedly to fully understand it. Quantum physics is essentially destroying every notion we have ever had of the world.
The famous experiment that essentially proved this theory about matter is the 'double slit theory'.

For the longest time science agreed that an atom was a physical static element that had fairly basic guidlines to its existence. For the sake of clarity I will use a marble as analogy for the atom or photon which is what I believe they used in the experiment. A marble is good because if you think about the way a marble physically reacts with its environment it is much like they used to think atoms were.

So imagine that we took an 8'x4' piece of plywood an set it up vertically so it was 8' tall. We then, measured perfectly the point where we would cut 2, 3" wide slits that were 3' long in the board. So now you have a large piece of plywood standing vertically with 2 slits cut in to it running vertically. Behind the board is a 'screen' thats many times larger than the board.

Now imagine that we have a 'gun' pointed at the plywood.
Here is where we get into the difference between 'solid' and 'not solid'.
If you were to shoot water or sound waves at the board the waves would hit the slits, be dispersed and form a pattern on the screen behind the board that reflects where the wave was dispersed and also indicates the waves 'convergence' points. If you are watching the water as it is spit out the prop on the back of a boat the waves disperse, forming other waves and those waves have points where they intersect with each other. That is the same pattern that is formed on the screen.

Well if you were to shoot marbles at the slits you only would have a few likely outcomes, right? A marble would either hit the solid spot in the center of the slots and not reflect a pattern at all or it would go through just one of the slits and make a pattern on the screen just behind that one, right? Well, thats what everyone thought.

Continued....

So, the scientist set up their 'gun' to continually shoot individual photons at the slits for a period of time. Well, what they found was that the photons, or marbles actually created the same exact pattern on the screen that waves would. How is this possible? Up until then no one assumed that it was possible. The only thing that could explain it was that the photon was de-composing itself creating multiple representations of itself and then striking the screen all at once.

Hmmm, something was going on here but no one knew what.
The next logical conclusion was to measure the photon, or more specifically to try to view it right as it was 'hitting' the slits so they could see what it was doing.

Here is where it gets mindblowingly world-changingly crazy.
Once they attempted to actually observe the photon in the act of going through the slits, it stopped creating the wave pattern and went through just one slit.

They were amazed. They did this over and over. They ran the experiment without observing the photon as it was hitting the screen and it would always form the wave pattern but every time they observed it in the act it would go back to the normal photon we thought it was.

After much trial, research and deliberation they came to a conclusion. Their conclusion was essentially that the photon or atom, or molecule of any kind IS, I will say it again; IS, basically in every possible place at once .
Here is the craziest part: the very act of observing the molecule is what makes it that stationary molecule that we are used to seeing. You could almost picture it as if while we are looking at the atom it is one, single atom right there. The moment you turn your head away that very atom is actually everywhere, all at once, not multiple atoms but that one atom in every location.

It all means that our observation is the very thing that makes this reality the way we perceive it to be. It is not theory, it has been physically proven.
There have been many more conclusive studies to back this theory up since then.

Do a youtube search for double slit theory.
Better yet, go to google videos and search for " What the bleep do we know further down the rabbit hole". There is the 'what the bleep' version and than there is the 'rabbit hole' version.

It is very important that you watch the Rabbit Hole version, it has so much more info. Anyone that has seen What the Bleep, but not Rabbit Hole needs to watch it. It has so much more info.

This stuff right here really is the rabbit hole and I've got to ask the question: How far are you willing to go?

reply to post by Brahmanite



Thank you very much for the double slit theory, will do some more research on it! I love learning! Well regarding the kundalini, i'm not too sure wether this experience was it or not but i will go into detail of an experience i had. I was lying down in my room closing my eyes when out of nowhere my vision with closed eye lids became all white and it felt as if my entire body was heating up. I'm also well aware of the 'dangers' of kundalini but i'm a bit stubborn to warnings from things spiritual and tried to maintain it as long as i could and well nothing bad happened but my closed eye lid vision stayed white with the increase to body temp. Which is interesting because the 'rise in temp' may not have even been physical but it was my experience regardless. The reason for my stubborness regarding spiritual warnings is because i'm indestructible, i just believe i am ready for anything.

In quantum mechanics, the double-slit experiment (often referred to as Young's experiment) demonstrates the inseparability of the wave and particle natures of light and other quantum particles. A coherent light source illuminates a thin plate with two parallel slits cut in it, and the light passing through the slits strikes a screen behind them. The wave nature of light causes the light waves passing through both slits to interfere, creating an interference pattern of bright and dark bands on the screen. However, at the screen, the light is always found to be absorbed as discrete particles, called photons.

en.wikipedia.org...

More recently I heard Dean Radin talking about this experirment.
www.deanradin.com...

4stral4pprentice, what you experienced was definitely not Kundalini. Think of Kundalini as 1,000 times stronger than what you experienced.

What you experienced though was very real and a crucial step to reaching higher consciousness. Be it Astral Projection, OBE's, WILD dreaming, deep meditation, etc. etc. the experience you described is a key step to achieving any of these feats and is often considered to be one of the first solid placemarkers that you are on your way. It can generally be referred to as the vibrational state. The hardest part can be holding on to the feeling for as long as you can until it completely goes away, other times you cant do anything to get it to stop. Robert Monroe usually says that it lasts about 5 minutes. In my experience this also happens in the general time frame that your mind goes blank and doesnt wander anymore.

If you can keep hold through all of this than you are well on your way to entering the realm where anything is possible.

I would not under estimate ALL 'spiritual' precautions that are advised my friend. Yes, a lot of 'spiritual' cautions that are given can easily be forgotten about or not taken seriously but access to your consciousness and its effects should not be taken lightly.

I am not trying to say that its dangerous, but I do think you should not approach this sort of thing with such audacity. It is even likely you could heed no real results with that sort of approach. Its much like how a lot of people say that you can never achieve this state without Love, pure love. I think that is wrong. I would even say that it is more appropriate to say that with Audacity, one can not attain this state. I think this may be what I am still working on as well.

I just read about this method in another post about cutting ping pong balls in half, taping them to your eyes and meditating in a dark room with a red light. I guess it is to mimic the effects of an isolation chamber. I would so love to have access to an isolation chamber but of course lack the funds. I am willing to try anything that claims to mimic one......

Good luck,

Im off, I will report back.

reply to post by sirnex

All of the examples would be considered theories, just about everything in science is a theory and not really an absolute truth. With what we're learning about the human brain and death we can explain NDE's a little better as well as OOBE's. All the psychic claims have been falsified when in a controlled setting. The fact that nothing spiritual has ever been proven as of yet. How can I believe in something that has never been proven to be possible or reproducible?

Just because it isn't reproducible in a lab doesn't make it not true, science dismisses most everything they can't reproduce. Having said that what I have expensed personally is definitely true, I am not looking for proof from science. These same scientists who may have had some of these experiences will never admit it.

reply to post by Aquarius1


Oh get off it will you. We know what the pineal gland is and how it works. Ok folks... it's not mysterious or strange nor does it harbor some mysterious magical property that only you kind folks were able to discover and people much more intelligent then yourselves were unable to.

reply to post by sirnex


Well your right the pineal gland isnt some mysterious magical thing, neither is astral projecting or doing telekinesis, its quite normal =]

Reply to Brahmanite:

Yeah i understand what your telling me and even though i disregard those precautions i take it 150% seriously.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by 4stral4pprentice]

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by Aquarius1

 

Oh get off it will you. We know what the pineal gland is and how it works. Ok folks... it's not mysterious or strange nor does it harbor some mysterious magical property that only you kind folks were able to discover and people much more intelligent then yourselves were unable to.

No sirnex you get off of it, I never claimed any such thing, nothing is strange or mysterious, everything is natural we just don't understand it yet. What does having unusual experiences have to do with intelligence?

reply to post by sirnex


either your a troll, or someone who tries to argue with very little knowledge on the topic of spirituality.
and think because you can Google some information, you know exactly how all spirituality works.

if you really wanted to know about the pineal gland, you would research it more.

whatever, keep living in your little brainwashed bubble.
i never thought it was possible to ask a stupid question,
but you have proved me wrong in countless posts.