And herein lies my problem

To all of you that think that Iran is the big bad wolf.
To all of you who think Iran is the big bad wolf

I was reading this thread earlier, a poster had made the below statements and in the thread referred to his/her church. I didn't post this in that thread out of respect to the writer not wanting to derail their thread.

So here goes...

The Iranian government needs to FALL. the government is TOO Islamic... Iran needs a SECULAR government, to secure religious freedom.

And herein lies my problem with Christianity and the Middle East...

Because you and your Christian government believe they have the right to decide how every country in the world will live, you will justify by any means the mass murder of millions of innocent men, woman, and children to ensure everyone does as the Christian country of the United States tells them.

Their beautiful country will be annihilated and they will be murdered. Those left will have one legged babies for decades because of the depleted uranium, filthy drinking water, no electricity, schools or hospitals to speak of, because Christians feel it's their God given right to decide what government they will be allowed to have.
This is exactly what happened in Iraq.

I don't see what your God finds just or beautiful about this but it must please him.

Ahmedinejad was ELECTED by the people of that country. There may be speculation of fraud, but when it comes to that, there's been a lot of speculation in your own backyard.

We live in a day and age that through sanctions alone you can severely damage a country without murdering those who live there and just want to celebrate their children's birthdays. Doesn't your God remember the effect sanctions had on Cuba?

You should celebrate that you have nothing for God to judge you over and that your country will for many years continue to keep going in the EXACT same direction he's taking it now.


WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE
Image

Way ta go team Jesus!



[edit on 11-10-2009 by Sundancer]

[edit on 10/11/2009 by semperfortis]

[edit on 10/11/2009 by semperfortis]

I think you might be generalizing a bit on this one, Sundancer. I will be the first in line to get behind someone that wants to point out the atrocities committed in the name of religion...ANY religion...but as with ALMOST any religion, oft times, the ones making the policies, committing the atrocities, bombing the civilians, are the ones that are behaving in a manner that is neither advocated by, or representative of, the majority of those practicing.

We always need more opportunities to shake the cobwebs out and examine our beliefs. This, I think is just such an opportunity.

To blame the death and destruction, past, present and future on Christianity is a bit off of the mark.

It's really akin to blaming the twin towers on all Muslims.

I think when we get too wrapped up in trying to find blame, we shift the responsibility from us ALL, where it squarely belongs. It's easier to sleep knowing the babies are born with one leg because of zealots on one side of the fence or the other. Much more difficult is admitting that even though we don't ascribe to any of the religious fervor, we are complicit in the destruction we try so hard to blame on everyone else.

I appreciate your point of view, Sundancer, but I don't really think 'team Jesus' should be allowed to shoulder the entire burden.

God thread.

reply to post by KSPigpen




Thank you for your comment KS.

complicit in the destruction we try so hard to blame on everyone else.

Would not these good people of Christ stand up against this atrocity if they were to believe it was amoral?

I've read several times Christians on these forums stating "we should bomb the hell out of them" It's sad when there are so many other ways...

reply to post by Sundancer


In an ideal world, my friend, ALL people would stand up against atrocities.

It's strange, but a few months ago, I read an article about a guy being 'sought for questioning' in a case involving the abuse of a child and the neighborhood he lived in tracked him down and lynched him. Beat the snot out of a guy that hadn't even been accused of anything, just 'wanted for questioning.'

Another case where a person had abused a CAT. They had to leave their home and seek out police protection because they feared for their lives from the retaliation of their neighbors.

People have a tremendous potential for good, but I fear they also have a greater potential to 'stay out of it,' when the ass that's getting kicked, or the town that's being bombed is not their own.

I don't like it, I just see it, and yes, being a human, I often have the same failing.

I don't pretend to uphold the tenets of ANY organized religion, but you are right in that if a person follows Christian principles, which ironically are similar to Islam and others, they would seek peace and not laud the loss of life and destruction of countries. Though early teachings of Christianity were just as wrought with intolerance and bias as some other religions are now, Christians are supposedly living under the instruction of a New Testament from their savior that tells us to 'love one another as he has loved us.'

Christ took WITH him, to paradise, as the story goes, a convicted thief that hung on a cross next to him.

Somehow, something got skewed somewhere and I think humanity did it. Somewhere it became ok to do whatever you like as long as you ask forgiveness, tithe, confess it, or do it in the 'name' of you god.

An old saying, I don't know where it came from... "If god is FOR us, then who could be AGAINST us?"

Many will not be willing to dig deeper into Christianity to swim in the blood that the religion is based on. When you have bias based on ignorance, justification comes easy.

"spare the rod, spoil the child." is a fundamentalist excuse to beat their child. Of course, shepherds didn't use their rod for beating their sheep, they used it to guide them.

When you can twist your 'holy' words to justify your actions, then murder becomes easier.

reply to post by Sundancer

And herein lies my problem

It is foolish and a waste of your time to engage in intellectual discourse with a wolf pack. A wolf cannot question the morality of his actions on behalf of the pack. There is no "good" other than what is good for the pack. There is no "bad" other than what is bad for the pack. There is no pack other than the wolf pack.

Their beautiful country will be annihilated and they will be murdered.

To the wolf, there is no beauty in a rabbit hole. There can be no murder of the food. It is food. And any possible danger to the pack is evil. Why? Because it threatens the pack.

Ahmedinejad was ELECTED by the people of that country.

What people are you talking about? What country? There is no people. There is no country. To the wolf pack there is only us and them. The wolf pack, and those who are against the wolf pack.

you have nothing for God to judge you over

To the wolf, God will only judge a wolf based on his success in defending his pack. The pack. There is no other.

Sundancer, I can not disagree with what you have said. We all need to look first at ouselves and our irrational bias.

And as KSP said, it lies with us all.

While I am no longer a christian, there is a bible verse that I find fitting "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all".

Semperfortis,
Thanks much for cleaning up the links for me. Sad, isn't it, that a babys photo has to be considered a graphic image?

reply to post by Sundancer

Sundancer, I see what you're saying, but here's the problem.

We have folks in the Middle East who due to their religion, kill each other wholesale.

Then, between both Shia and Sunni, they each have fanatic fundamentalists who follow the words of their prophet - to the letter - and that means kill non-Muslims.

So we have Muslim Sunni killing Muslim Shia, and both Shia and Sunni fundamentalists not only killing each other, but they tag team non-Muslims.

Here's the good part.

They can't fight worth squat. These folks are the equivalent of Seventh Century Jihadists, but armed with AK's and rockets.

Every time either the Arabs or Persians have come up against a Western nation - they get slaughtered. They like the dying part apparently, and there's just no helping it.

It's not our fault that we can conduct wholesale slaughter here in the West with maximum destruction in minimum time.

We just happen to be really, really good at it.

My advice to these backward-assed peoples - Muslim fundamentalist Persians and Arabs, is to not start any **** with the West, and that would include the US.

Because no one in history can kill like Westerners.

reply to post by dooper


Dooper, Dooper, Dooper.

"Because no one in history can kill like Westerners"

That's so true.

We should never let religion dictate politics. However, Islam is a political religion and strives to take over country and state and implement Shria law to all of its citizens which makes it a religious political movement.

Personally, I like the idea that we let everyone believe in what ever they want. If they want to believe in Santa God and the Jesus bunny... I say let them... as long as it's not forced down my throats, my kids or my community.

Let law be set based on human rights and true justice. Perhaps a pipe dream but I believe it possible.

Keep religion out of government, christian, islam or other. I personally don't believe in Santa God or the Jesus bunny. Or any religious deity of nonsentical worthlessness.

reply to post by LordBucket


That's a beautiful analogy but I like to believe that my God will judge me by the good I've tried to create in the world not how many butts I've kicked in the end.

reply to post by KSPigpen


I couldn't have said it better. But what's so frustrating is that you can see this, I can see this, Liveandlearn can see this. Why can't they "Christians?" In this day and age I can't understand how can they believe that a bloodbath for God is the only way to solve their problems.

reply to post by Sundancer

I like to believe that my God will judge me by the good I've tried
to create in the world not how many butts I've kicked in the end.

You're not a wolf.

how can they believe that a bloodbath for God is the only way to solve their problems.

How can you expect a wolf to believe that killing deer isn't the only way to solve their problems? How can you expect a wolf to even consider that there's any reason to worry about the rabbit? To the wolf, there is no bloodbath unless it is wolves being killed.

"We are good."
"They are bad."
"They kill us, that is bad."
"We kill them, that is good."

reply to post by dooper

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by Sundancer

 

Here's the good part.

They can't fight worth squat. These folks are the equivalent of Seventh Century Jihadists, but armed with AK's and rockets.

Every time either the Arabs or Persians have come up against a Western nation - they get slaughtered. They like the dying part apparently, and there's just no helping it.

It's not our fault that we can conduct wholesale slaughter here in the West with maximum destruction in minimum time.

We just happen to be really, really good at it.

My advice to these backward-assed peoples - Muslim fundamentalist Persians and Arabs, is to not start any **** with the West, and that would include the US.

Because no one in history can kill like Westerners.

You seem to take som sort of pride in this, am I right?

Wholesale slaughtere with maximum destruction in minimum time

And you take pride in that?!?
Your fascist-assed attitudes are shining trough your babaric stupidity, unfortunatly you have been born around 500-years to late.
You and your kind of people are the ones standing as a obstacle to real progress in the world

When you understand that you have actively sought out the situation you are killing and beeing killed in ,and start to understand the underlying reasons for this stupidity. You might realise that you wouldn't apreciate it if Muslims came to your country to set you free from democracy and capitalism.

What makes you think, that your way of life is better than someone else?
What makes you think you have the right to go change how people live their lives?

Sounds pretty much like something Hitler was thinking, you know, like some kind of "übermensch"....