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Deny Logic?

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posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 08:04 AM
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I already know what you're thinking. Why the beef would you want to deny logic!?
Ah, good question!
Well, to start off, there is nothing wrong with logic. It keeps us from doing really stupid things like stepping out into traffic, juggling with chain saws, or doing jumping jacks on glass shards with bare feet! See, isn't logic great.

However, I think many people forget that they have an entire portion of their brain that is designed to be anti-logical. It's the part that says, hey, wouldn't it be cool to jump out of a plane traveling 100 mph at 12,000 feet above the ground!
Obviously, this is where logic steps and says WHOA hold on a sec there. We gotta work on that sudden stop issue.

So, I ask you. Where has all of our creativity gone!? Are we as a species really that uninspired that we can't come up with creative and novel solutions to our worlds problems? Or has pure logic minded academia stifled out the creative process?

Edit to add: Creativity can also be used to come up with novel ideas on how to bypass the roadblocks of implementation. Whether thats money, people, or the government. Do not let your logical mind tell you that the worlds problems are set in stone and there's not a single creative process that can be used to sidestep those barriers.


[edit on 11-10-2009 by xEphon]




posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 08:32 AM
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The problems of the world are caused by greed.Logic has no part of the equation.
There are people who can help solve the worlds problems with their ideas...the problem is if the greedy can't figure out a way to profit from it then we will not progress.
Its not a logical thought process...its a greedy one.



posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 08:33 AM
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Originally posted by xEphon
So, I ask you. Where has all of our creativity gone!?


They work at Google. They seem to be unaffected by the mind melt.



[edit on 11-10-2009 by Copernicus]



posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 08:43 AM
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Originally posted by xEphon
Or has pure logic minded academia stifled out the creative process?


Perhaps our sense of logic is the product of past experience or exposure to information about past experience.

If we haven't been told that sticking our hand into a flame will hurt like the dickens, or have found out from first-hand experience (no pun intended), then where will our logic come from that tells us not to do this foolhardy thing?

If logic is derived from historical experience, then that might be what thwarts creative and out-of-the-box thought processes. Novel thinking is not encouraged enough.



posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 08:47 AM
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I would jump out of a plane at 10,000 feet if I had a parachute or it was a tandem...because logic and statistics tells me that it is actually pretty safe, and that life isn't worth living if you are going to do nothing crazy in it. Thats just me


Creativity is here. It is just that there are SO many people nowadays, and technology is so advanced, it gets harder and harder for the average person to think of something "out of this world".

This is why we have geniuses (Einstein for example)...come up with ideas out of "thin air" to say.



posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 08:50 AM
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reply to post by xEphon
 


I think logic and creativity are two separate processes, but they overlap, or converge at a point when creativity needs to move from being abstract and into something tangible.
Like your example of jumping out of a plane. Creativity inspires a number of solutions and logic sorts out the best result. Example. I want to jump out of a plane at 10000feet, I need to stop. Create a number of ways to stop: Giant infaltable underwear.
Surgically insert birds wings.
Make a parachute.
See, creativity and logic. Separate but overlapping.



posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 08:54 AM
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Originally posted by xEphon
So, I ask you. Where has all of our creativity gone!? Are we as a species really that uninspired that we can't come up with creative and novel solutions to our worlds problems? Or has pure logic minded academia stifled out the creative process?


There is no shortage of people applying creative thought processes to the World's problems. The problem is that those people are not in a physical position to implement their ideas. There is a huge gulf that needs to be bridged and should be bridged. If you look back to the Bloomsbury set and the great things and thoughts that came out of that group of people, you realise that there needs to be a balance between creativity and logic, in the physical sense. You also see that any attempt to move in that direction since the impact of the Bloomsbury Group, has been thwarted.



posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 09:22 AM
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Originally posted by xEphon
I already know what you're thinking. Why the beef would you want to deny logic!?
Ah, good question!
Well, to start off, there is nothing wrong with logic. It keeps us from doing really stupid things like stepping out into traffic, juggling with chain saws, or doing jumping jacks on glass shards with bare feet! See, isn't logic great.

However, I think many people forget that they have an entire portion of their brain that is designed to be anti-logical. It's the part that says, hey, wouldn't it be cool to jump out of a plane traveling 100 mph at 12,000 feet above the ground!
Obviously, this is where logic steps and says WHOA hold on a sec there. We gotta work on that sudden stop issue.

So, I ask you. Where has all of our creativity gone!? Are we as a species really that uninspired that we can't come up with creative and novel solutions to our worlds problems? Or has pure logic minded academia stifled out the creative process?


I am a seasoned inventor & successful startup founder. Multiple patents (hundreds not filed for monetary reasons), a reasonably successful international business, collaborator in research with some top researchers around the world, known as an innovator.

I have a drawer full of inventions, plus a garage of prototypes. Why haven't I turned to space exploration, our energy problem or other ideas? I have very interesting proof of concepts of propulsion systems and a completely organic battery on the drawing board. But... to get these to market would take an huge amount of R&D, funding and time.

The problem is that every entrepreneur is chasing money. I freely admit it. I am not at the stage yet where I am able to work on what I want, and still be financially stable. For me to contribute the most to the world I need more $$$ - and to get that I need to have at least one home run on the board (high 7 figures).

You are right, there are a lot of researchers and graduates who are in the "not possible" basket. I myself have a business partner who is exactly that; they bring my ideas down to earth. This is needed, otherwise I would never get anything done. Reducing scope, minimizing dreaming, and just seeing flaws in my optimist view is an important part of the innovation process.

Logic isn't the problem. Money is.

I've always wondered if I should publish many of my ideas that aren't public knowledge. To tell the truth, I would feel ripped off if someone else did them, even though there's probably more than I could ever do in my lifetime.



posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 09:26 AM
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Originally posted by atlasastro
reply to post by xEphon
 


I think logic and creativity are two separate processes, but they overlap, or converge at a point when creativity needs to move from being abstract and into something tangible.
Like your example of jumping out of a plane. Creativity inspires a number of solutions and logic sorts out the best result. Example. I want to jump out of a plane at 10000feet, I need to stop. Create a number of ways to stop: Giant infaltable underwear.
Surgically insert birds wings.
Make a parachute.
See, creativity and logic. Separate but overlapping.


I agree. If someone tells me a problem, no matter what the field, I can instantly see diagrams in my head with a solution. Then, I sit down and build/prototype it, and apply a logical process to the actual implementation.



posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 09:58 AM
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History only have a handful of names that can be remembered but that doesn't mean that the rest of humanity are simply idiotic side-characters. It's just that history has a way of weeding out the less-than "outstanding" people from the tiny percentage of visionaries/lucky-fellows and to make sure their names stand the test of time.

Like what's happening now, there are only a handful of people who we can attribute to a particular item. Let's say for example, your computer. We can't immediately snatch at the back of our minds the inventor of the monitor or the keyboard, the processor, your web browser, etc. But we do know and associate Bill Gates with computers even though he's more of a businessman than a computer-type.

There are a lot of great minds (untapped or whatnot) out there such as you the reader. It's just that they're not popular (or lucky, etc.) enough even though their significance cannot be questioned.

The bottomline of all this is that, I do know that the mighty Spork is an important invention but I don't really care who, when, or how it was invented.



posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 10:01 AM
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reply to post by xEphon
 


Only a few people have always changed the world, most people are like us, useless eaters like they say.

Its defeatist, but in many ways its true. If your somebody they want to destroy, they will make sure your life is totally wrecked. This is what they do to most people, and most people cannot stand another getting on, so they want to destroy them.



posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 10:06 AM
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This is an excellent topic on which I have had much thought, and practical experience.

The brain is separated into right (intuitive, creative, parallel, inferential) and left (deductive, rational, serial, logical).

To be an effective thinker, both sides of the brain must be used. You may have heard many that a physicist, poet or artist usually complete their best work before age 26 or so. Why is this the case?

The answer is simple - it is due to killing off the infinite nature of data by creating beliefs.

When data arrives it is neither true nor false - but in a mixed state of the two.

EDIT: I should make some explanation of why no data is true or false. Data is observation and measurements taken from reality. These are made relying on our human capacity - meaning we are not able to discern whether something is true or false, because we have a limited array of senses and measurements to test it with. Proving something to be either true or false requires an infinite number of tests over an infinite period of time - we simply can't manage it.

So we aren't qualified to know what true or false are with respect to reality. We can believe concepts, abstracts or fantasies - however they cannot be bodily brought into the real world and retain their truth - they can exist as truth only in the abstract - and because of this, truth cannot be communicated without a loss of coherence. If I know the truth - as soon as I tell it to you - it must enter reality, it is then received by your senses, interpreted - and then enters your mind as neither true or false - it is contaminated by reality.

When we need to use that data in a logical process, we must force the data to become either true or false - logic cannot work unless we resolve it to binary code. This is left brain processing - and it is just like a computer. When we assume that a piece of data is true - then we can say that we have created a belief.

What happens then - is that we fail to resolve that data back into its original form. We leave it as true or false - in other words we say some data is true, and other data is false. The nature of the data is compromised - we now no longer have real data - we have created synthetic data that is no longer useful for creative or inferential thinking. The result is a build up of beliefs within our mind - these beliefs interfere with incoming data - filtering it, and converting it into binary without our conscious control.

Inferential or right brain thinking does not require true or false data. It simply places data into a large framework of understanding. When new data hits the framework, and agrees with it - then we can say the model is functional. Then we can use the model to creatively infer missing data points.

This method of thinking does not disturb the original nature of the data, and is far more powerful in terms of dealing with unknowns - rather than resolve them into binary and test them - it PREDICTS unknowns - not based on a linear progression - but rather in a holistic way.

Logic has its place - but it is the poor cousin of inferential thinking, and even further away from a true holistic model that requires both methods.

When we practically apply an inferential model to reality - then logic processing is required - we infer reality exists in binary states. In other words we paint a car blue or yellow, we decide to assume that it either blue or yellow - not an unknown combination. So we must again resolve the original data into binary.

The constant challenge then is to maintain the integrity of original data - both data we already have, and new incoming data. The only way we can be sure to preserve them is to remove all beliefs - beliefs are based on the idea that some things are either true or false. So in the case of the car we have just painted, lets say we chose yellow, then we pass the information back and allow that we really aren't qualified to know what color it is - we assume that it is yellow (assumption = unknown, but we favor yellow as that is consistent with our knowledge framework).

If we are constantly able to remove beliefs - then we can effectively think inferentially - and we do not judge or filter incoming data - we accept it all, and either place it into an existing model if it agrees with it - or place it into a new model. No data is filtered out, no data is wasted, no data is altered. So our car once again is neither blue nor yellow, just an unknown combination that we for sake of convenience will assume is yellow.

This mental processing requires that you hold few beliefs - the fewer the better - top effectiveness requires zero beliefs.

This is the alternative to logic and reason - it is far more powerful - and is able to maintain multiple conflicting views at the same time. It is tolerant - it understands - and it accepts.

[edit on 11-10-2009 by Amagnon]



posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 10:14 AM
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Good thread. Thought provoking I must say.

I don't see a safe or profitable way to use logic without reasoning.

Logic tells us fire is hot. You feel the need to expose yourself to fire. This is when logical reasoning comes in and helps create a way to enter the fire without being burned.

One of my crusades is figuring out a way to collect space junk and dispose of it in a manner that will have no ill effects on earth or outer space.

Lofty notion huh? Why can't it be done? This is where logical reasoning comes into play.

Another ingredient to add to logical reasoning is the knowledge that every action has a reaction.

Now we have two more ingredients to add so we become adventurous and able to create. They are "if" and "then". If I do this what will happen then?

Logic, standing alone, is not productive.

S&F



posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by atlasastro
reply to post by xEphon
 


I think logic and creativity are two separate processes, but they overlap, or converge at a point when creativity needs to move from being abstract and into something tangible.
Like your example of jumping out of a plane. Creativity inspires a number of solutions and logic sorts out the best result. Example. I want to jump out of a plane at 10000feet, I need to stop. Create a number of ways to stop: Giant infaltable underwear.
Surgically insert birds wings.
Make a parachute.
See, creativity and logic. Separate but overlapping.


Absolutely agree.
However, how many schools have classes on thinking creatively? I took 1 in college and it was one of the best classes I took. We were given problems and told, as a group, to come up with as many solutions as possible, regardless of the "insanity" of our solutions.

You'd be surprised how many "insane" ideas turned into logical solutions.
Just like Hannibal from the A-Team "It's just so crazy, it just might work!"



posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 11:14 AM
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reply to post by dizziedame
 


Hmm, I would say attach the junk to a rocket and shoot it towards a black hole!
Just kidding.
Or am I?



posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 11:19 AM
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Its not the history makers we lack. Its the ones behind the sceens. No would ever make the mistake of saying Einstein who? But can you tell me the name of the man who invented the pencil cup? I find his invention much more useful to my own life than E=mc2. We don't need the great thinkers nearly as much as the common Joe who sees a simple problem and fixes it.



posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 11:32 AM
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Originally posted by DrumsRfun
The problems of the world are caused by greed.Logic has no part of the equation.
There are people who can help solve the worlds problems with their ideas...the problem is if the greedy can't figure out a way to profit from it then we will not progress.
Its not a logical thought process...its a greedy one.


Good point. At the end of the day, greed is and will be the motivating factor for just about everything; however, you're doing exactly what I have outlined in my post without even realizing it.

Your logical mind is telling you that everything is run by greed, to which, I agree. In other words, we have come to the assumption that the worlds problems will never be solved as long as we have greedy people.

That thought, while entirely reasonable, is being directed soley by the logical part of your mind. The part that says, it is what it is and theres nothing more that can be done.
But if that were always the case, how would we ever progress?

So...whats the creative solution? As logic will only stifle progress with greedy weights of helplessness...so we can apply that later.


[edit on 11-10-2009 by xEphon]



posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 11:51 AM
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Originally posted by xEphon

So, I ask you. Where has all of our creativity gone!? Are we as a species really that uninspired that we can't come up with creative and novel solutions to our worlds problems? Or has pure logic minded academia stifled out the creative process?


Creativity... one of my favourite subjects.

Logic and science do stifle creativity and yet, also promote it. Let me explain with simple examples:

1) The art of portraits, developed over millenia, has been stifled by the science of photography. The age-old trend to facilitate accurate renderings of someone's person has been cut off at the knees because it may be done with the click of a button. On the other hand, there is an additional art of capturing the personality of the subject.

The 'art' of accurate copying has died, but the true art of representing personality now is encompassed in both painterly and photographic ways. Karsh, for instance, is recognized as a true artist in photography.

2) Logic, and the general acceptance of those areas of science where all seems so cut and dried have had a dampening effect on much speculation. Where the fantasies of a less knowledgeable mind could, in the past, have created strange and bewildering worldviews. The 'playing field' becomes narrowed by the general understanding of basic scientific acknowledgements.

On the other hand, new theories evolving from advanced speculations on the fabric of time and space or the true reality of atomic structure are so mind-bending that just about anything could be dreamt up to compensate for our inability to comprehend it all. As examples, I would offer String Theory, Dark Matter and Energy and the very real notions of alternate universes.

So, yes and no seems to be the true answer. The more we know, the more questions arise and the more creative we need to become to compensate such knowledge.

Let me quote from HP Lovecraft with what I believe is relevant to the topic and to the season itself. This comes from the opening lines of his short story The Call of Cthulhu


The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piercing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.

www.dagonbytes.com...




[edit on 11/10/09 by masqua]



posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by masqua
the opening lines of his short story The Call of Cthulhu


The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piercing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.

www.dagonbytes.com...




Very nice quote, and for me, highly personal. What he describes, is what I have set out to acheive. The madness required however, in my experience, helps alleviate any fear. And often the ludicrous nature of 'truth' provides the odd belly-laugh that can help you to get through the pain and the suffering that exists all around the planet.

To find the solution to the World's problems, we have to see the world and all the minds that occupy it as a single mass. Imagination or creative thought is required to do that. Imagination and creative thought are then required in order for one to 'dare to dream' a solution and a means in which change can be implemented. We are, all of us, in a unique position of having an incredible vista of information behind us, as detailed a picture of our place in the Universe as we have ever had. We know how we got here, we now have to imagine how we can get 'there'. When you take yourself to the eye of the Universe and look down upon us in that context, it is easy to see the solutions available to us.

The only problem remains to get those ideas and solutions across to ensure that they are implemented. Expression through art, I have found, will not do anymore. It is highly necessary for creative minds and those who can look past the immediate problems, to ensure that they are positioned to have influence when the time is needed.



posted on Oct, 11 2009 @ 12:45 PM
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Stifled by academia, as pointed out above.


People started making up all these big words, and now all of our studying is done learning these big words before coming to the actual mystery we were originally studying. Intuitive approaches are lost, or someone tries to analyze the intuition and fails at either understanding or teaching it or both.



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