This is your paranoid gun culture...

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
A firearm is a tool that is used to harvest food, protect one's self and others from predators, and also provides recreation.

I fail to see how a firearm could be a good tool for harvesting. Surely there are other tools that are better designed for the purpose of harvesting.

Perhaps you meant hunting and then yes I agree. But it does all those things you write above through the act of killing. That is what it is designed to do. One persons protection by the use of firearms is another persons death.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
reply to post by Lillydale

 

In a concrete, reductionist analysis you are correct, but you will note in my last post, I spoke of abstractions.

The OP states that the woman who was tragically killed by her fiancé, was killed because of our paranoid gun culture, when actually she was killed by accident.

... with a gun. If the gun hadn't been there, chances are she might still be alive despite the same people being involved in the event.

Accidents happen people. We are on planet earth, and even if you got rid of EVERY gun in the world accidents would still happen. People will die, people will kill. I am not going to kill unless need be, and should that need arise I will have the tools needed to do so.

If gun culture were allowed to flourish instead of being driven underground, then education this man needed in order to not make this mistake would have been there. We have a system of ignorance that permeates all of America and in many different ways, the idea is to deny it. We seem to think we can pick and choose what rights are actually rights.

Banning guns isn't going to help. When Fidel first seized power the first thing he did was confiscate guns. Now the place is on lock down. You can't even speak ill of government waste as it would potentially land you in prison. Just ask my grandfather who spent 11 years as a political prisoner at El Morro.

You want things to change educate people. Education is the ONLY proven method of reducing crime, the other is good economics. For eventualities such a criminal activity, in this country, you have the right to life and liberty, and there is no way you can keep the two without the tools necessary. History stands behind my statements.

[edit on 11-10-2009 by projectvxn]

Originally posted by projectvxn
Accidents happen people. We are on planet earth, and even if you got rid of EVERY gun in the world accidents would still happen. People will die, people will kill.

Yes. Just not nearly as many as today.

reply to post by moniker


Oh don't worry Earth doesn't have a population problem. We seem to be multiplying just fine. A few accidents just creates parking spaces. Nature is a cruel thing, and we're part of it. Things do not always go according to plan. It's just something you're going to have to accept. Like the surge in knife related crimes in the UK.

reply to post by Dramey


What else could he have used that can kill a person so quickly? By the time he'd reached for a baseball bat, knife, golf club, it would have become clear it was not an intruder but someone he knew, and it would have ended up being something they would have laughed about in years to come.

Guns are the problem, immediate lethal force in the hands of too many incompetent nut jobs, i'm not saying all gun owners are like that, but enough for this kind of thing to happen often. You should not be able to purchase one without documented training of several hours in how to use one, Minimum.

I don't see this as a cultural paranoia, although it can't be discounted.

This may be a cultural view of guns as a solution to problems.
In this case, there may be an intruder. Solution Oh- get a gun.
What happened to other options?
What happened to yelling out an alert?
What happened to telling the intruder " I am armed, leave"
What happened to a threat to alert police?
What happened to locating your loved ones first?
What happened to attempting to leave the premises to avoid danger or harm?

Perhaps this is a cultural problem, not of paranoia, but that guns are the only solution to problems.

A more accurate telling would be the story that came out this week about this woman who was a big gun rights advocate who was shot by her husband in a murder suicide.

www.thespec.com...

Now that is what I call ironic.

The problem with the gun's rights arguments is that they (at least in the case of the NRA) against all common sense controls.

The fact that the 2nd amendment exists at all means; hysterics and fear mongering aside, that neither the congress or the president can take them away without a long and protracted process that requires first a 2/3 vote for it in both houses of congress and then a 2/3 vote by the legislatures of all of the states...

and simply put...that ain't gonna happen.

In all reality...

There is nothing wrong with a waiting period...a background check or a limit on the number of purchases at one time.

Any society that thinks that it needs to be armed to the teeth all the time is in serious trouble.


[edit on 11-10-2009 by grover]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
reply to post by ANOK

 

It is the left who for more than half a century has been using the misfortune of others to make make a case for infringing on the Second Amendment.

For all us non-Americans, please explain what the second amendment is all about and why the constitution was so terribly poor to begin with that it requires so many amendments.

reply to post by ANOK


Yup. This is the EXACT reason why I will not allow a gun of any sort inside my house. Because the research shows (although gun owners will deny this) that most of the time, the person who ends up being shot by it will be yourself or someone you love.



[edit on 11-10-2009 by nikiano]

reply to post by ANOK



Well,lets see how bad things are....

One murder EVERY 32 MINUTES.a
One violent crime EVERY 6 SECONDS.b
One robbery EVERY 55 SECONDS.b
One assault EVERY 7 SECONDS.b
One theft EVERY 2 SECONDS.b
One burglary EVERY 10 SECONDS.b
One rape/sexual assault EVERY 2 MINUTES.b
56 women are victimized by an intimate EVERY HOUR.b
A teenager is victimized EVERY 19 SECONDS.b
3 women and/or men become victims
of stalking EVERY MINUTE.c
A child is abused and/or neglected
in America EVERY 35 SECONDS.d
EVERY 19 SECONDS a violent crime is
committed against a person at work or on duty.e
A person is killed in an alcohol-related
traffic crash EVERY 30 MINUTES.f
An identity theft is reported EVERY 3 MINUTES.g

BTW these are old number last compiled back in 2004 we've seem a huge spike in all crimes since the 2007 market crash

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by watcher73


Target shooting.

Maybe cars should have been invented solely to kill since theyre better at it.

Target shooting is practice.

It is the practice of causing injury or death. Do not kid yourself.

I bet thats what all the people in the Olympics who shoot tell themselves daily.

(10/9) 2010 Shotgun National Junior Olympic Team Application Now Available
(10/8) Housing Now Full for Winter Air Gun Championships
(10/2) First Rifle/Pistol "Entry Gate" for 2012 Olympic Selection Process Complete after Fall Regional at Fort Benning
(9/25) 2010 State Junior Olympic Rifle/Pistol Host Applications Due by October 2
(9/21) Double Trap and Skeet Shooters Qualify for 2010 World Championship Team (9/21) Rifle & Pistol U.S. Olympic Team Selection Procedures for 2012 Now Available (9/16) Shotgun Fall Selection Being Held in Kerrville, Texas September 10-20
(9/14) Trap Shooters Selected to 2010 World Championship Team

Lilly, you sound awefully scared. Maybe you should get a gun?

Originally posted by Lillydale
Why? When is the last time someone killed someone because they were using a computer properly or improperly?

Huh? I am not even sure what you are trying to get at there.

Medications are not toys either but they are also not designed to kill or cause injury are they?

So now you need more strict drivers licensing so that when you drive down to your local pharmacy you can whip out your license to buy over the counter drugs. Which also, should be very strict.

You keep pretending all these other things were also designed to kill and cause injury. Sorry but Aspirin was designed to do many good things along with being an anti-inflammatory. Cars were designed to transport. Guns are designed to kill or cause injury. Please, give up.

Give up what? The second amendment? Your whole argument seems to hinge on what something was "designed" to do instead of what it actually capable. You sound like the type of person who would legislate thought crimes in case someone decided to think of smething dangerous to build.

What I was trying to get at above was I think the old guy may have been making an excuse. I find it hard to believe he could/would get up without even looking to see if she was in bed. "I thought she was in bed the whole time sounds like a piss poor excuse.

Yes guns were designed to kill. So are boomerangs, knives, slingshots, bows and arrows etc etc ad nauseum. Your argument is weak and smacks of paranoia. Like I said, if youre so scared, get a gun, or maybe a slingshot. Or maybe just keep a nice sized stone next to your bed at night. God designed those to kill. According to the bible.

[edit on 11-10-2009 by watcher73]

If gun culture were allowed to flourish instead of being driven underground

Funny someone mentioned this, I read a couple years ago how the so called wild west was pretty safe because of all the guns around. Shootouts were rare and usually didnt involve anyone except the two disputing parties.

Originally posted by moniker

... with a gun. If the gun hadn't been there, chances are she might still be alive despite the same people being involved in the event.

If the gun hadnt have been there and it was a real intruder chances are they might both be dead. Then you people could whine about criminals having guns.

Originally posted by moniker

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
A firearm is a tool that is used to harvest food, protect one's self and others from predators, and also provides recreation.

I fail to see how a firearm could be a good tool for harvesting. Surely there are other tools that are better designed for the purpose of harvesting.

Perhaps you meant hunting and then yes I agree. But it does all those things you write above through the act of killing. That is what it is designed to do. One persons protection by the use of firearms is another persons death.

Perhaps he meant what he said.

Most hunters I have met typically refer to the kill as a harvest. Since paranoid people killed all the predators thats basically all it is now.

Two of you have come to the correct conclusion that guns were designed to kill.

Very good, you two get gold stars. Knives were designed to kill also. Wheres the uproar over those?

Results 1 - 10 of about 4,950,000 for deaths by stabbing in the US. (0.19 seconds)


[edit on 11-10-2009 by watcher73]

In 2006, 13,470 people died in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for nearly one-third (32%) of all traffic-related deaths in the United States

www.cdc.gov...

2006 homicides by firearm = 12,791
2006 vehicle accident deaths = 43,664
2006 unintentional poisoning = 27,531
2006 unintentional fall = 20,823
www.cdc.gov...

In applying the same logic (logic being the key word here), most people who drink alcoholic beverages are responsible and do not overindulge then drive. A small number of people who consume alcohol become extremely violent, resulting in injury and/or death. But, because a minority of them are irresponsible and/or are prone to idiotic or violent behavior, should we ban the possession of the implement (alcohol) entirely?

What about those murderous stairs?

We just have to accept the fact that some people are just plain
STUPID:
1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
4. Dazed, stunned, or stupefied.
5. Pointless; worthless: a stupid job.
www.thefreedictionary.com...

So, it would be best for all if we just outlawed stupidity. That would take care of so many problems.

Originally posted by ANOK
... to allow such freedoms?

The day that you try to "disallow" this "freedom", you are likely to meet the fiancée of the man in this story.

My friend, who is a single woman, lives in metro atlanta. Her door was kicked in at 4 am on Friday morning. Thank God she had a gun. She didn't fire it, but, between her two dogs and the gun, the intruder did not come in.

Actually, the woosy dogs didn't even bark, so, I think the gun was probably the turning point. She did go to training classes for it and has a concealed carry permit. She didn't shoot, but, she had the option had he entered her home.

I want that option to stay an option. I do not want to be at the mercy of criminals in my own home.

reply to post by Lillydale


Its amazing that you try and dissociate a higher death toll from cars and still try to demonize guns.... especially seeing as there are LESS cars in America than there are guns (8million to 200million)...

Now you can blame guns all you want but doesn't it make your logic a bit backwards?
Lets see... You don't like guns because they are designed to kill people right? But you'll defend cars that kill more people and weren't designed to do it right?

So your for killing as long as its mowing someone down in a vehicle just not with a gun.


You can stick all your convoluted ideas into a post but don't expect anyone with any sense to agree with you


I felt like adding some fact to this post rather than just speculation

en.wikipedia.org...-Chicago2007-3


What does this prove? There are FAR MORE Rapes, Assaults, Assualts on property, burglary... i could go on for ever... than their are murders the fact is violent crime happens... are you going to be the one to deny a women about to be raped of a gun for fear she might kill her attacker?

wiki.answers.com...

649? thats it in 2004? with 45 pct of Americans owning a gun? wiki.answers.com...&alreadyAsked=1&rtitle=How_many_gun_owners_are_in_america

your argument is null

[edit on 11-10-2009 by conspiracyrus]