Let's find a Level D Simulator, and re-create the 9/11 flights.

reply to post by ValkyrieWings

Now you want to speak with Lear? A man who you know doesn't have 757 time?

Talk about jumping all over the place!!

I know where to find Captain Lear. He has expensive tastes, though...in whiskey and cigars, not sure I can afford him...

Tell me...WHY is there such a small contingent at P4T???

Over 50,000 ALPA members, last I checked. AAL has what? Maybe at least 10,000 in the APA? And SWAPA? How big are they now (is that the name of their in-house union...just to clarify, I'm talking about SouthWest Airlines...or did they join ALPA? Things change rapidly, sometimes).

YET...P4T has....how many pilots again????

THIS IS WHY we should do the simulator thing...except it's expensive, and as I've already noted, likely won't convince anyone anyway, so what's the ppoint???

Originally posted by Springer
It's been brought to my attention that "weedwhacker's" credentials have been questioned. While it's certainly GOOD COMMON SENSE to question anyone who claims to have credentials online, I can assure everyone that "weedwhacker" is absolutely a licensed, extremely experienced, and professional Commercial Airline Pilot.

I've seen his FAA documentation and vetted him in other ways also, he is exactly what he says he is.

Springer...

No offense but I do not know you from a hole in the wall so why exactly am I taking your word for it? Besides, this only confirms what I have already said - WW cannot be a very good one. See, I already conceded that he may really be a pilot since someone else I do no know already jumped to his defense. I clearly stated that I would accept that I was wrong but that I would still be frightened to know he was in the sky in any capacity given his problems with reading comprehension and logic. There is also the huge problem he seems to have understanding what the air outside a plane has to do with keeping it off the ground and I find that a little scary. Now, an entire day after I openly accepted that he was a pilot here...he is still trying to prove it to me. Yeah, and you do not see a problem with that?

reply to post by ValkyrieWings


Why the hell was that thread closed down? It had potential to be the best thread in this place ever and you mods decide to close the thread. Dumbest move ever in my opinion. Close the good stuff down but lets keep all the bs about starseeds,reptilians and indigo blue ball children. Great Move Guys

So Wheedwhacker still got a problem with another investigation? I'm really interested to find out how much money you are personally going to lose with this investigation? You run from this idea kicking and screaming every time I see it getting mentioned in these boards.

Really don't understand the butthurt with another investigation? Could you explain to me why this investigation scares you so much? Why you oppose these questions that clearly thousands of your own American people want? Who made you in charge of the American people? Who let you decide what is wrong and right for every other person in America?

I don't think pathetic is the right word in this situation. The right word for you will only get me banned.

Sorry Springer,weren't you guys going to do this ages ago? Could have sworn I read on this site you,WheedWhacker and a few other people mentioning this. Would be nice if there were more people in this world that actually do instead of talk rubbish.

I don't expect this post to stay for long so WheedWhacker if you could climb down from your high and mighty throne for just 2 secs to answer me. I'd appreciate it greatly. I won't be holding my breath...

Rank

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Over 50,000 ALPA members, last I checked.

YET...P4T has....how many pilots again????

Once again WW, you expose your lack of knowledge of the airline industry.

When was ALPA founded? How many years in operation? How are their members recruited?

Compare that to P4T?

Do you know why "P4T has how many"? Clearly not, and this is just another reason you refuse to debate P4T. You lack knowledge of the true airline industry.

If you really had such knowledge, you would know that ALPA has been in existence more than 70 years and that they recruit through a mandatory orientation meeting in initial. You would not argue this point if you were a real pilot in front of other real pilots.

Lets not forget, ALPA consists of about 9% of the pilot population and is the most powerful pilot lobby in the world. Does that mean 91% disagree with ALPA? Your argument is a logical fallacy. For you to claim you're an airline pilot and to compare a 70 year old organization against a 3 year old organization, exposes at the very least your bias, and at the most, your lack of knowledge. This has been pointed out to you in other posts, but clearly it failed to sink in.

THIS IS WHY we should do the simulator thing...except it's expensive, and as I've already noted, likely won't convince anyone anyway, so what's the ppoint???

Again, pilots who are already confirmed to have flight time in the actual aircraft allegedly used on 9/11, already have attempted such a "simulator thing", on a carrier and into the WTC (if you care to actually review the P4T presentation).

You obviously disagree with them. Lets just leave it here that we agree to disagree as I have to go at this time. But you been fun!

Love you too WW!

Be sure to download that csv file,. Its not just for "Goobers".

hi weedwacker

I seldom visit here ("once in a blue moon") but you always seem to be here debunking crock!

You have spent hours telling ATS about your experience and expertise! Congrats you must be one of the best pilots in the world.

Would you please (with sugar on top)

1. Detail the actions you would do to preplan the direction, trajectory,decent rate to hit the WTC target

2. Detail the progressive steps/actions you would take (citing instrumentation used )over the last few minutes to impact starting from a high altitude say over 20,000 ft

3. Apology for being imprecise, but video UA175 seems to indicate a bank of approx 20-30deg on impact and a decent angle of approx10 deg (note steeper prior)

Given above approximates please explain to us dummys ....from your vast actual experience ....what a near fully fueled 767 travelling at circa 460 knots at 800ft would be like to control?

Thanks in advance

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Well, I wish the self-proclaimed "truthers" would all get together, and stick to one story!!!

Well I wish the self-proclaimed "authorities" would all get together, and stick to one story.

That's not to say they didn't try. Why else would Bush and Cheney insist on testifying to the 9/11 Commission in each others presence and off the record?



Bush, Cheney, Rumsfelt, NORAD and FAA officials had already changed their stories by the time of the 9/11 Commission:

John Farmer, senior counsel to the 9/11 Commission
...at some level of the government, at some point in time…there was an agreement not to tell the truth about what happen... I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described... The [North American Aerospace Defense Command] tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years. This is not spin.

Thomas Keen, Chairman 9/11 Commission:
We to this day don’t know why NORAD told us what they told us, it was just so far from the truth...

The 9/11 Commission Rejects Own Report as Based on Government Lies

Does any of this trouble you weedwhacker - or are you really more concerned that "truthers" all agree what happened that day?


[edit on 15-10-2009 by EvilAxis]

Originally posted by trebor451
Looking forward to hearing how your presentation with ALPA went!

No, No, NO, you're confused. He refuses to take his garbage to anyone of note, particularily any legal entity. Well, he actually did submit some crap in the Gallop suit and claimed they (pffft) were presenting their case!!

Instead, he wants to debate weedwhacker on his Forum in hopes of fleecing more ignorant fools to provide more $$ for his Office improvements!

Balsamo's no fool, he knows if he takes his garbage to credible organizations or presents it within the legal system, he'll be laughed out the door.

No sirreeeee buddy, he'd rather debate someone on a highly technical subject in an attempt to razzle dazzle his audience with his usual BS. It means he might get to finally finish his Office improvements earlier!

Have you noticed he's going "no planer" recently. So much for that no claims facade he hides behind.

Did you notice his proof that no one could hit the towers was done by attempting a carrier landing. Now, that's spectacular showmanship!

Weedwhacker, if you can manage a simulator deal, I suggest you don't invite those superior "verified by the FAA" cult members. They'd do their damnest to prove you wrong. By the way, this is the same FAA that they imply has manipulated/altered/faked all of the 9/11 data that prove pffft wrong on virtually every issue they have addressed.

Originally posted by Reheat
Weedwhacker, if you can manage a simulator deal, I suggest you don't invite those superior "verified by the FAA" cult members. They'd do their damnest to prove you wrong.

But if he is not actually wrong then what does it matter who tries and how hard to prove that he is? Wouldn't it be better that he have the most challenging audience there is to shut us all up?

By the way, this is the same FAA that they imply has manipulated/altered/faked all of the 9/11 data that prove pffft wrong on virtually every issue they have addressed.

Which is exactly why the FAA would then turn around and confirm these people are who they say they are, you know - as a favor for accusing them of treason and/or incompetence?

OSers say truther logic is funny.

Originally posted by ValkyrieWings
With respect to civilian pilot knowledge of transponders, there isn't anything classified as "Sensitive Information" in which a civilian pilot cannot discuss publicly about transponders.

It’s funny how you guys lock onto one piece of a post, the only part you can ridicule, and go with that while excluding the rest of it. Yes, I did not feel comfortable telling people how to shut one of those off, even if its easy information to find out on your own. However, if you READ my posts, that was only one thing I was asked about. I was also asked about bypassing doors, and shutting off alarms.

Originally posted by ValkyrieWings
Certainly there isn't any "sensitive information" that a ramper would know about transponders above and beyond a pilot.

Well first off, a normal private pilot has no access to the level of equipment that we had. Secondly, I was not a normal “Ramper”, I was a ramp supervisor. Meaning I spent boocoo time in cockpits dealing with things involved in towing, etc. For example, I do in fact know how to shut off alarms, because what is the first thing that happens when you apply power to an unpowered aircraft? Hm??? The alarms and eyebrow light go off. When you are switching a powered down aircraft over to ground power, you have to go into the cockpit, turn on the battery (so you don’t spike the gyro), then switch it over to the groundpower setting. When this happens, you get alarms.

So what is your expertise in this area since you seem to not be aware of this?

Originally posted by ValkyrieWings
That's just hilarious a self proclaimed "ramper" (defcon5) thinks he can't discuss transponders because of "Need-to-know". And even if you did have such knowledge of "sensitive information", how did you get it as a Ramper? Who told you?

Again I had flight lessons, I spent many hours in cockpits, and I spent a lot of time with the avionics mechanics.

Originally posted by ValkyrieWings
Ramper, stick to what you know best, tossing bags. Although you might think you are (and good for you buddy!), but the fact is you're just not that important to have any "Need-to-Know" information regarding aircraft flight operations.

And you should stick with slinging pizzas between your college classes.
BTW supervisors don’t sling bags, then run ramp airsides.

Originally posted by ValkyrieWings
Anyone who would like to know about transponders, just google it. It's not some big spooky trade secret as defcon5 and others would like you to believe. Not even the hijack code is a secret anymore.

I never said that it was not something you can find online, or in a good flight sim program, but then again it was only a part of a list of things that I stated I was uncomfortable discussing online.

Mod Note

Hi People,

Any chance we might actually start - oh - discussing the TOPIC as opposed to those posting within it?

That would be fantastic if you did so.


Cheers,
ALIEN

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Is this what you mean?

OP

Could you please post a link to a video (s) of the test simulations on one of those Level D Simulators that the 9/11commission organised, where very inexperienced pilots .......and just random ordinary folk ......were able to easily learn to fly missions exactly as occurred?

Surely they DID ? .... to dispell all doubt given you suggest /know it is very easy!

When & where do you propose ATS members join you in your suggested task?

I note you anticipate USD$2,000 is that each? or is there are bulk discounts available at the location you have in mind? Approximately how much each? How many participants do you consider would be a comfortable group for you to handle?

posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Lillydale

 

Yes, everyone. Find me one person that claimed to be a pilot on these threads that has NOT contradicted you.

'mkultra007'
habu
zaphod
Boone

Just four off the top of my head.

All anonymous persons unwilling to stake their reputations by publicly supporting the 9-11 OFFICIAL STORY

I once maintained the underwing ramp fueling valve pits in a major US International airport. But I don't think that makes me a pilot or the effective equivalent knowledge of a pilot does it? Most baggage handlers would not make credible piloting experts would they? How about the cabin cleaners who actually board the aircraft?

OP

Let's find a Level D Simulator, and re-create the 9/11 flights

Actually Dan Govatos already did that. He is a real pilot with easily-provable credentials and he is a FAA Authorized Flight Examiner/Check Airman. But hitting those towers according to this real pilot would be much more difficult than you an anonymous person make it out to be whacker. So why aren't any real pilots agreeing with you whacker? Not even one? Surely you could find thousands if what you claim is true. So where are they?

Professional Pilots Rob Balsamo and FAA Authorized Flight Examiner/Check Airman Dan Govatos discuss the difficulty of the WTC attacks as well as attempts to duplicate the attack in an Airline Simulator on tnrlive.com.

source

posted by thedman
reply to post by Has2b

 

Without a planned flight plan (unknown location) at 20km from WTC at only 400knots the novicepilots have 3 minutes to line up target, plan decent to under 1000 ft.

Imagine now being 6km away 2000ft looking at New York skyline of conjested high rises...you have less than one minute to impact.

I live 15 miles west of NYC - from my neighborhood (live on ridge) can easily pick out prominent buildings on clear day.

I assume thedman that your home is not a high-rise looking down on New York from 30,000 feet? Just exactly how would 1300 foot towers be prominent above a large New York skyline from 30,000 feet and many miles away?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/63b7387179af.jpg[/atsimg]

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reply to post by SPreston


No in fairness to Thedman... at 20miles at say 15000-20000 ft MOST likely that WTC would be very easily visible!

They also like have advanced GPS on board with bearing directors... some of us may find out when WW organises this VERY exciting D Simulator trial!


Difficulty for some of us who struggle to backout of our driveways... perfectly straight ....when flustered and in a hurry!


IS THAT

...with 30secs to impact still some 3miles away at 460 knots... even a one degree error in manual control line up adjustment will for (even only 5 times say 2sec correction ) of that remaining to impact time...Means potentially LIKELY dutch rolling in counter correction and most likely result less control and a very wide miss!

Originally posted by SPreston
I once maintained the underwing ramp fueling valve pits in a major US International airport.

Oh, you mean a hydrant system.

Originally posted by SPreston
But I don't think that makes me a pilot or the effective equivalent knowledge of a pilot does it?

Ah…
I see the personal attacks, and questions of experience are still on-going despite there being multiple requests now to stop them. I think all truthers suffer from a habit of selective reading skills. They only read what they want to see, or what they think they can pick on, and harp on that to the tenth degree.

Originally posted by SPreston
Most baggage handlers would not make credible piloting experts would they?

Maybe because I was not a baggage handler as I have already explained.

The guys who sling bags are called Ramp Agents, and they actually do more then just sling bags as well. In my experience, most Ramp Agents are ex-military mechanics who do not have their civilian A&P license, but are planning on going over to a maintenance department as soon as they get it. Two of my Ramp Agents were civilian flight instructors, one of whom I took flight lessons from.

Lead agents run flights and control gates, they sign responsibility paperwork for those flights that is turned into flight ops on their checklist/loadsheet. They oversee presetting the gates before arrival, marshaling in aircraft, they control the flow of traffic around the aircraft, they oversee the load plan/weight and balance of the aircraft, they take care of all ground handling (GPU’s, Airstarts, de-icing, Etc.), They tow the aircraft, perform final walk-arounds before departure, and run the push-back. It’s their job to ensure the safety of everyone in and around the aircraft while it is in their custody. In the Navy, I believe the equivalent position is called a Lead Safety Officer or Yellow Shirt:

Yellow Shirts:Flight Deck Officers and Plane Directors.
These are the only people on the flight deck authorized to move aircraft, or to give hand signals regarding taxiing the a/c, or moving it.

There is normally one Lead Agent per Gate...

The Ramp Supervisor (usually only one per shift per airline/airside/terminal) is the Lead Agents boss…

The Ramp Supervisor only reports to the Station Manager (one per company per station, period).

Flight Ops oversees and coordinates everyone from the Ramp, Passenger Service, Catering, Cabin Service, Fueling, and Maintenance departments, along with the Flight Crew. They assign the gates and equipment, ensure the loading of everything is in compliance with the requirements of that flight (weight and balance, food, fuel, water, etc.), and run the numbers for the Flight Crew. They are like the information hub that is directly connected into the corporate control center. Everyone answers to Flight Ops.

Get it…

Let me put it this way. If you were out on the flightline with your little truck, tool kit, and air compressor , and a Lead Agent told you to pack up and leave his gate… You better start packing your crap up pronto.

Originally posted by SPreston
How about the cabin cleaners who actually board the aircraft?

So they are involved with towing aircraft, engine starts, ground powering, load and balance, etc? BTW a Lead Agent can throw the Cabin Service people off his ramp. In fact, he has the authority to throw anyone he wants off his ramp with the exception of his superiors. He is given that authority because he is responsible for that aircraft when it is not in the pilot’s hands, or in the hands of maintenance. If something happens to that aircraft between the time he begins to marshal it, to the time he pushes it out, it's HIS buttocks.

Does cabin service have that responsibility as well?

[edit on 10/15/2009 by defcon5]

Last Polite Request

Stick to the post - not the posters.

Anything else and its hammer time.


Cheers.

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