Let's find a Level D Simulator, and re-create the 9/11 flights.

Originally posted by Lillydale
he was a bad one because simple logic eludes him so easily.

I don't think that logic eludes any of us, as we all understand what you guys are saying, but we do not agree with it. Much of the truth movement stuff may sound logical, but its still incorrect. That is one of the problems that many of us have with the truth movement. They sell stuff that sounds good to the layman, but its just not how things really are, or really work.

For example, the cell phone argument. Cell phones can work to a limited degree in aircraft, which is why they now make you shut them off, but the fact is that almost all of the calls were made from airphones. Another example is the rumor that they would not rent a plane to one of the pilots, when the fact of the matter is that on a first-time rental at any new airport you are required to make a check-ride with a flight instructor before being allowed to rent (its a money scam, and upsets many pilots because it adds several hundred dollars to your rental cost). Then there is the fact that NORAD was set up to protect from external threats entering the US from outside the country, not within it (ever hear of the DEW Line?). See stuff like this is fact, but the untrue stuff sounds more accurate to many people who have been weened on TV/Movie versions of how certain things in fact are.

I think that is where some of these misunderstandings stem from, and when you deal with someone that they are second nature to, they can tend to assume that you know many of them when you don't.

Originally posted by Lillydale
[Um...not one of them has posted on any one of the threads that I have posted on so that would mean they have not posted on any of the threads that we have crossed paths in.

Zaphod, for one, used to post in these threads frequently, but he gave up due to truther tactics. I also seldom post in any of these forums for the same reason. It gets both frustrating, and annoying after awhile, and makes you want to put a fist into your computer screen. Believe me I have been there, and its part of the reason that I now hate the truth movement so vehemently. It was intentionally caused by certain people, who were selling truth movement videos, books, and DVD's, to silence any dissenting opinion, and it chased many knowledgeable people away from the topic for good. Now every time I hear the words “911 truth” I throw up a little bit in my mouth.

[edit on 10/13/2009 by defcon5]

Another thing I want to add quick before I have to leave, is that many of us who have inside knowledge of certain things have to post with our hands tied on certain topics. I cannot tell you how many times I have been asked about alarms and transponders, which could easily be explained, but cannot be because none of us wants to write how to do certain things for security reasons. Obviously none of us wants a visit from the PTB, asking why we would put up such information for public consumption. There are certain folks here who seem to think that it would be grand if we wrote a “how-to 101” guide, which would just be stupid on our parts.

As a matter of fact, you guys one big leader, John Lear, did write just such a thing prior to coming to ATS. It might surprise you to know that he was in fact very anti-truth before he showed up here posting some of the most ridiculous claims that the truth movement ever conceived. You ever wonder as to why that is? Why would he be anti-truth, make a very detailed post on how it was done, then flip-flop and start posting the most outrageous stuff that any of us have ever read?

You think that maybe he got into some type of hot water over his original post? Hm...?

Originally posted by tezzajw
So no amount of video game simulation will recreate the alleged conditions of the hijacking experience.

So...you are equating a Level D simulator with a "video game"? That's *almost* as good as Turbo and Cap't Bob drawing up their little simulations and trying to pass them off as verified, validated and accurate sims.

Thanks again for playing and also for proving, for the umpteenth time, you are way out of your depth in these discussions.

Originally posted by defcon5
Obviously none of us wants a visit from the PTB, asking why we would put up such information for public consumption.

But hang on... you're using an anonymous login name, like many of the other so-called aviation experts here. How will TPTB find you?

Illegal wiretapping? Illegal ISP tracing? How many 'security' measures have they put in place to track down anonymous internet-flyboys to scold them for giving away trade secrets?

Some people claim that truthers are paranoid...

Originally posted by trebor451
So...you are equating a Level D simulator with a "video game"?

Hell yeah, I am.

When weedwhacker and presumably you, think that a simulator will recreate the entire hijacking event, it shows how little you discount human emotions to stressful situations.

Thanks for trying to make people believe that a video-game simulator can recreate the alleged hijacking script.

Crash a sim, big deal. Insert another quarter and try again...

[edit on 13-10-2009 by tezzajw]

reply to post by tezzajw


There is also the fact that WW, the 'pilot' originally did not understand what air pressure, altitude, and g-forces had to do with anything anyway and then eventually he understood the question enough to claim he could program that all in. I asked what data set he had been using so far and never got an answer. He also never explained how the sim compensates for g-forces both on the physical structure of the actual plane in flight as well as the person behind the controls. He also elaborated that circumstances change nothing about the handling of a plane in any way. No matter what "Up is up, left is left, etc." Sounds far more like a video game than an actual experience to me and if that is a real pilot, I hope he is easy to recognize in the airport.

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by Lillydale
he was a bad one because simple logic eludes him so easily.

I don't think that logic eludes any of us, as we all understand what you guys are saying, but we do not agree with it.

Um...no. Are you speaking for Joey Canoli? Jthomas? Have you read every post by WW ever? If so, then please proudly proclaim how logical you all are again for me and I will read the rest. I seriously doubt you know who this "we" is. There are plenty of people that do not agree with me but I do not say they are all illogical. Someone claiming to be a pilot and then not understanding what air has to do with the plane flying through it...not logical.

Originally posted by defcon5
As a matter of fact, I just had a discussion with one of the Mods here in the last month, because she realized that Weed, her, and myself all worked for the same airline.

So you, someone we do not know from any other name online and some nameless mod that is also another stranger with no proof claim he is really a pilot. Interesting. What airline did you all work for and when? I am willing to believe WW is a pilot. I am not willing to believe he is one that is allowed to fly actual planes. You can all buddy up with your internet proof all you want to but the man has revealed himself as just simply not understanding enough of the things he copies and posts to be a real pilot. You kids have fun with your circle jerk though.

Originally posted by defcon5
Another thing I want to add quick before I have to leave, is that many of us who have inside knowledge of certain things have to post with our hands tied on certain topics. I cannot tell you how many times I have been asked about alarms and transponders, which could easily be explained, but cannot be because none of us wants to write how to do certain things for security reasons. Obviously none of us wants a visit from the PTB, asking why we would put up such information for public consumption. There are certain folks here who seem to think that it would be grand if we wrote a “how-to 101” guide, which would just be stupid on our parts.

As a matter of fact, you guys one big leader, John Lear, did write just such a thing prior to coming to ATS. It might surprise you to know that he was in fact very anti-truth before he showed up here posting some of the most ridiculous claims that the truth movement ever conceived. You ever wonder as to why that is? Why would he be anti-truth, make a very detailed post on how it was done, then flip-flop and start posting the most outrageous stuff that any of us have ever read?

You think that maybe he got into some type of hot water over his original post? Hm...?

Tonight is one treat after another. So you post about how you are afraid the men in black will visit you for explaining where a transponder is on a plane?

Then you go on to explain how the punishment for far higher levels of inside info spreading will lead to....a successful career doing what you were successfully doing before - selling BS.

Not only is he not my leader, how often do you see his name brought up by or in the truth movement? In years, I have still only seen it coming from people like you. I never read his crap and I do not discuss him.

I want to make sure that I understand you though. The technical layout of a commercial aircraft is confidential now? When did that happen. How is the law phrased? Why do I know two 'electricians', for lack of a better word, that used to have that kind of access as independent contractors?

To really be clear here. Telling us that stuff would be bad. Are you saying it would be as bad as explaining how to pull off a 9/11? Are you saying your punishment would not be as harsh as Lear's? His punishment again was that people asked him to change the subject?

Originally posted by tezzajw
But hang on... you're using an anonymous login name, like many of the other so-called aviation experts here. How will TPTB find you?

Even if they wouldn’t, anyone with a conscience would not give out that type of information in a forum like this, where God knows who can access it. Besides that, I don’t know about you, but I had to register here with my information.

Originally posted by tezzajw
How many 'security' measures have they put in place to track down anonymous internet-flyboys to scold them for giving away trade secrets?

You bet if you gave away certain information that you would get a knock on your door. These are not trade secrets on McDonalds special sauce we are talking about here.

Originally posted by defcon5

You bet if you gave away certain information that you would get a knock on your door. These are not trade secrets on McDonalds special sauce we are talking about here.

And after they knock, they will come in and tell you keep writing your BS books but write them about something else and then they will leave...neatly shutting the door behind them whooooooooooooooo.

I get chills thinking about it.

I will take that bet because I am more afraid of the King and that clown than anyone in gov't.

Originally posted by defcon5
Even if they wouldn’t, anyone with a conscience would not give out that type of information in a forum like this, where God knows who can access it.

But if the information is coming from anonymous usernames, like your's, then it doesn't necessarily mean that the information is verifiable or correct.

Originally posted by defcon5
You bet if you gave away certain information that you would get a knock on your door. These are not trade secrets on McDonalds special sauce we are talking about here.

So would this knock on the door be legal? Would it be breaching the Constitutional rights to harass a citizen with that knock on the door?

I can't figure out the logic of some official government story believers. Some of them want us to believe that the government isn't all that powerful and that things slip through the cracks and they don't listen in on us... yet here you are stating that the government agents would be straight on to someone for giving away transponder information???

Which is it Defcon, does the government really pry on people or not - and why?

[edit on 13-10-2009 by tezzajw]

Originally posted by Lillydale
There is also the fact that WW, the 'pilot' originally did not understand what air pressure, altitude, and g-forces had to do with anything anyway and then eventually he understood the question enough to claim he could program that all in.

I am sure its because most of that stuff is factored into the flight model algorithm that simulators use. They can tweak certain values, like weather, time, starting location, emergencies, System failures, but things specific to that aircrafts performance are coded in its physics model.

Originally posted by Lillydale
I asked what data set he had been using so far and never got an answer.

That does not surprise me he is a pilot not a computer programmer. I have been both an aviation employee and a computer programmer on the other hand.

Originally posted by Lillydale
He also never explained how the sim compensates for g-forces both on the physical structure of the actual plane in flight as well as the person behind the controls.

The flight model of a simulator would be set to compensate for the forces acting on an aircraft of the type that the algorithm was designed for. The physical strains on a human would only be simulated in as much is possible with a multi-axis motion platform. These can simulate increasing and decreasing speed, turning, climbing, diving, and bumps like turbulence. I don’t think that the aircraft would have stayed together if the G’s were severe enough to make the pilot unconscious. There have been a few commercial aircraft that have been used to do stunts, but they are not fighter planes.

Originally posted by Lillydale
He also elaborated that circumstances change nothing about the handling of a plane in any way.

Things like damage can be simulated in a simulator, and the reaction of the aircraft to those instances are based on that aircrafts flight model. A real aircraft is actually more robust then the simulators are, and a simulator will fail exactly when a certain mathematical number is exceeded, while actual aircraft vary slightly in design from each other and may be able to withstand greater forces then the mathematical model itself is designed to withstand. So with that in mind simulators are less forgiving then actual aircraft are.

Originally posted by Lillydale
No matter what "Up is up, left is left, etc." Sounds far more like a video game than an actual experience to me.

I guess that shows how little you know about the topic in general then.

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by Lillydale
There is also the fact that WW, the 'pilot' originally did not understand what air pressure, altitude, and g-forces had to do with anything anyway and then eventually he understood the question enough to claim he could program that all in.

I am sure its because most of that stuff is factored into the flight model algorithm that simulators use. They can tweak certain values, like weather, time, starting location, emergencies, System failures, but things specific to that aircrafts performance are coded in its physics model.

Originally posted by Lillydale
I asked what data set he had been using so far and never got an answer.

That does not surprise me he is a pilot not a computer programmer. I have been both an aviation employee and a computer programmer on the other hand.

Apparently you missed something. He claimed he has and could continue to make this run. I asked about these things and he did not know why they would matter. You failed to address that part of what I said. Are you really a pilot? Can you understand why altitude, air pressure, you know dynamic pressures would be acting on the plane and pilot? I hope so. If so, you are one up on WW.

I asked what data set because he claimed to have made this run already. Why is it that he has no idea what the weather was like that day or anything about the barometric pressure or wind speed and direction of that day?

Originally posted by Lillydale
Um...no. Are you speaking for Joey Canoli? Jthomas?

Nope, don’t know them. I am speaking about the folks mentioned here, Weed, Zaphod, etc.

Originally posted by Lillydale
Have you read every post by WW ever? If so, then please proudly proclaim how logical you all are again for me and I will read the rest.

Yeah, and I have read many in this thread. Each person has their own posting style, and not everyone is a professional debater like some of you guys apparently are. I have not seen anything incorrect in what I have read from Weed in this thread so far.

Originally posted by Lillydale
Someone claiming to be a pilot and then not understanding what air has to do with the plane flying through it...not logical.

I would like to see where he did not know about the air he was flying through… Or are you misrepresenting the fact that he may not have known how a simulator works? Those are two entirely different topics my friend. Pilots are not trained in how a simulator works, they are only trained in them. Companies like Relfectone, build simulators black box, and ship them out to the purchaser. Once in the field the airline would hire technicians who work on, and deal with the simulators themselves.

Originally posted by Lillydale
Apparently you missed something. He claimed he has and could continue to make this run. I asked about these things and he did not know why they would matter.

Because he would not be the one RUNNING the simulator. I don’t care how much you pay the company, unless you straight out buy your own simulator, they are not going to let you, me, or him adjust those things. They have a technician that would do that for you. All weed has to do is tell them how he wants it set up to run, like in a pre-flight briefing.

Originally posted by Lillydale
Are you really a pilot? Can you understand why altitude, air pressure, you know dynamic pressures would be acting on the plane and pilot? I hope so.

I am not a pilot, I was a airline ramp supervisor. I did take some flying lessons though I never found the time to complete them. I mess with the sims all the time, and actually attempted to get into programming them professionally. Unfortunately, you have to have come from a military background to get most jobs with flight simulator companies, as they are their main customers. And yes I understand how the physics of flying work, I am sure that Weed does even better then I do.

Originally posted by Lillydale
I asked what data set because he claimed to have made this run already.

Maybe because “dataset” means nothing to him. To me it means that you have no idea what your asking for since we are not programming a database here. Did you perchance mean to ask what parameters the simulator was set for?

Originally posted by Lillydale
Why is it that he has no idea what the weather was like that day or anything about the barometric pressure or wind speed and direction of that day?

Maybe because he has a life outside arguing with you guy about this topic. I myself have no idea on what the weather was that day either, and why would I for that matter. Its easy enough to look that up if need be, is there some pressing reason I must commit it to memory?

Originally posted by Lillydale
So you post about how you are afraid the men in black will visit you for explaining where a transponder is on a plane?

No, the local FBI office would be the ones to handle something like that.

Originally posted by Lillydale
Then you go on to explain how the punishment for far higher levels of inside info spreading will lead to....a successful career doing what you were successfully doing before - selling BS.

The only person selling BS here ATM is you.

Originally posted by Lillydale
Not only is he not my leader, how often do you see his name brought up by or in the truth movement?

Oh, when he showed up here, he was hailed as the know all of aviation, and the truth movement. Then he started spewing such inane nonsense that only the most deranged of people could believe what he was speaking. Of course that was a bit before your time, considering that you have only been here for a whole month.

Originally posted by Lillydale
I want to make sure that I understand you though. The technical layout of a commercial aircraft is confidential now?

No, I was being asked things about doors, alarms, etc. Stuff that was defiantly confidential. Some of that has changed since 911 though, and it had to be changed, because it was only a matter of time until something like this occurred with the old systems. Some of it may still apply, which is why I still don’t talk about certain things.

Originally posted by Lillydale
When did that happen. How is the law phrased?

I don’t know what law it is, but even back when I was there, you could not go spouting off on certain topics of security sensitive information. I do not recall ever signing anything that said I could not, but you just knew not to. Crap is REALLY Serious out there, and if you do something wrong its federal. I have seen people pulled in for stupid stuff, and jokes, to spend serious time discussing things with the AP. What kind of stuff they got charged with, I have no idea.

Originally posted by Lillydale
Why do I know two 'electricians', for lack of a better word, that used to have that kind of access as independent contractors?

Did these ‘electricians’ work for the aviation authority on the buildings, on the radar’s and runway equipment, or were they avionics mechanics?

Originally posted by Lillydale
To really be clear here. Telling us that stuff would be bad. Are you saying it would be as bad as explaining how to pull off a 9/11? Are you saying your punishment would not be as harsh as Lear's? His punishment again was that people asked him to change the subject?

I don’t know, I only know that he changed how he posted in one big hurry after that, and he was in tight with the government to begin with. I was simply speculating as to why he would flip-flop the way he did, as fast as he did, and as radically as he did.

Originally posted by Lillydale
And after they knock, they will come in and tell you keep writing your BS books but write them about something else and then they will leave...neatly shutting the door behind them whooooooooooooooo.

No, your post would most likely be flagged for review by an agent; who, if it did in fact contain something sensitive, would have the server remotely taken down. We have seen this actually happen to another web site, and it almost happened here thanks to Nans DESMICHELS. They then sent officers from the local field office to serve a warrant on the server, and pull the information on the person who made the post. The Site owners, of course, comply because they fear prosecution themselves. They then pass the posters information on to the local field office, where that person is, and arrest them. You think you can post anything you want on here…
Think again…

INDYMEDIA UK SERVERS SIEZED BY FBI!

Thursday morning, US authorities issued a federal order to Rackspace ordering them to hand over Indymedia web servers to the requesting agency. Rackspace, which provides hosting services for more that 20 Indymedia sites at its London facility, complied and turned over the requested servers, effectively removing those sites from the internet. Since the subpoena was issued to Rackspace and not to Indymedia, the reasons for this action are still unknown to Indymedia. Talking to Indymedia volunteers, Rackspace stated that "they cannot provide Indymedia with any information regarding the order." ISPs have received gag orders in similar situations which prevent them from updating the concerned parties on what is happening.

And why did this craziness go on?

The servers were taken because they had pictures of undercover swiss police taking pictures of protesters.
Yay, now i get to learn if the feds really do read ATS...if i mysteriously stop posting, they do!

Not even sensitive information, simply pictures of Swiss foreign agents taking pictures of protesters in Canada. Welcome to the world of the Patriot Act.

[edit on 10/14/2009 by defcon5]

Originally posted by tezzajw
then it doesn't necessarily mean that the information is verifiable or correct.

I only post information that is from first hand experience, so it would be correct to my knowledge. See, you are assuming that we are making stuff up, and I know that we are not.

Originally posted by tezzajw
So would this knock on the door be legal? Would it be breaching the Constitutional rights to harass a citizen with that knock on the door?

Nope, its called serving a warrant, and its done thousands of times every day in this country.

Originally posted by tezzajw
Some of them want us to believe that the government isn't all that powerful and that things slip through the cracks and they don't listen in on us... yet here you are stating that the government agents would be straight on to someone for giving away transponder information???

Our government has REALLY good intelligence gathering, and law enforcement abilities, they have one of the most powerful militaries in the world, and so on. They are not, however, all powerful, and they have never been particularly good at keeping secrets. If you honestly think that they could get the thousands of people who would have had to be in on this, from the truther perspective, to keep quite for 8 years…. Nah-ah, not going to happen.

Originally posted by defcon5
I only post information that is from first hand experience, so it would be correct to my knowledge. See, you are assuming that we are making stuff up, and I know that we are not.

I haven't assumed anything. I stated that it may not be possible to verify information from an anonymous source.

You should stop assuming things that I don't state.

Originally posted by defcon5
Nope, its called serving a warrant, and its done thousands of times every day in this country.

So what crime would you be charged with for typing out the details of transponders, using an anonymous name, on an internet forum. Please, be specific. You've made the claim, so let's see what crime would be broken.

Originally posted by defcon5
Our government has REALLY good intelligence gathering, and law enforcement abilities, they have one of the most powerful militaries in the world, and so on.

Good Intel, huh? Good enough to stop the alleged hijackers? Good enough to know about Iraq's WMD?

Yet, you're telling me they're good enough to chase down one anonymous internet poster who happens to type how transponders work, etc...

Right...

Would you like to select a position and stick with it, rather than contradict yourself within your own post?

Originally posted by tezzajw
I haven't assumed anything. I stated that it may not be possible to verify information from an anonymous source.

I am not getting what you are saying then.
Are you trying to say that they could not verify that its accurate information, then seize the server to get both IP’s and registration information of the poster. Wrong…

Originally posted by tezzajw
So what crime would you be charged with for typing out the details of transponders, using an anonymous name, on an internet forum. Please, be specific. You've made the claim, so let's see what crime would be broken.

I have no idea, I am not an attorney. I know that if they want you for something they can always find someway to get you. Just ask Al Capone.

Originally posted by tezzajw
Good Intel, huh? Good enough to stop the alleged hijackers? Good enough to know about Iraq's WMD?
Yet, you're telling me they're good enough to chase down one anonymous internet poster who happens to type how transponders work, etc...
Would you like to select a position and stick with it, rather than contradict yourself within your own post?

There is no contradiction there other then you trying to hedge me into a corner, which you’re not going to do. Things changed, and the pivot point on which they changed is the exact topic that we are discussing here. Yes, we have good Intel, and we knew that there was nothing in Iraq, but the American people post-911 were not going to be satisfied with them pounding the crap out of a pile of sand like Clinton did. I am sure that Bush’s personal agenda also went into choosing Iraq as a target.

Pre-911, intelligence was spread out, some here, some there; post-911 it’s consolidated. Pre-911 they could not admit to domestic surveillance without a warrant; post-911 they monitor everything.

Simply look at my post above, they caught those guys within hours of them posting that information, and it was not even about American personnel. So, yeah the world has changed since a little event called 911 occurred.