Hey dad, you wanna hear something funny? There was a man who was drowning, and a boat came, and the man on the boat said "Do you need help?" and the man said "God will save me". Then another boat came and he tried to help him, but he said "God will save me", then he drowned and went to Heaven. Then the man told God, "God, why didn't you save me?" and God said "I sent you two boats, you dummy!"

- From the movie pursuit of happiness.

I come from a neutral stand point as I don't believe in God nor do I believe there is no God. However, this topic is obviously here to debate the existance of God and here's what I believe is a good counter argument for christians.

You see, God is complicated to understand. As the creator of the universe more powerful then any 'mere mortal' should be. Arguments concerning why he's not there when a little girl needs him can easily be countered by a "miracle" arguement where somebody points out that "someone or something must have been looking out for them". They are almost pointless to bring up in debate.

Though I thought I would enlighten you with that movie quote. A cute joke but one with a message behind it. That message being sometimes when we think God is not there he is reaching out for us by sending us the solution, but we ignore his efforts to assist us. We expect miracles and sometimes the miracle is right in front of us. We expect God to save us while a medical staff more then capable of saving her life is begging them to let them treat the little girl, but they keep saying "no thank you - God will save me". Then they reach the gates of heaven and say "God, why did you let my little girl die?", and God says, "I sent you medical staff". "Why did you let us go to jail?" - "You murdered your daughter when you wouldn't allow her to be treated for her illness. Instead of helping her, you let her die".

Good news.

Nutjobs like these deserve prison for life.

My dad was a back-country doctor, waaaay back in the paleolithic age when doctors carried around those little black bags and knew everyone in town by name. He'd take his beat-up pickup out at any hour of the day or night if somebody in our tiny little rural town or a nearby area called, just like a beat cop. If the guy couldn't pay (which was often the case), he'd just negotiate a swap, like, "maybe you can help my son tar the roof next spring" or whatever).

Aaaanyway, the point being, he was very much loved and respected in the community, and a good doc, too, despite being a bit (well, more than a bit) of a drunk. He never, ever talked about his cases (that was rule #1 in our house: don't ask daddy about his work)...except one time. I'd NEVER seen him so mad, so furious. He came stomping into the house and threw a tumbler of bourbon against the wall and started screaming and shouting. It was the closest I'd ever seen him to tears, too; he was a military doc when he was young and saw some pretty awful stuff in Asia that made him a hard man. This was the first time for me as a little boy to see him totally lose control of himself, which was frightening in the extreme.

The problem? A family down the road had refused medical care he could have easily provided and insisted on praying for their sick daughter. He said he stood out in the driveway for 5 hours shouting instructions at the family, trying to get through to them. He offered to come in and pray with them, anything to get the girl the medicine and care she needed. They ignored him, shut the shutters, and eventually stuck a shotgun out the window and said "we like you an all, doc, but a man's home is his castle and you'd best be on yer way home to yours."

Predictably, the girl died a few hours later. It was a kid I played with at school and in the woods. I sobbed my 5-year-old self to sleep.

I was too young to know what disease she had or what he could have done for her, but I learned then and there that The Lord Helps Those Who Help Themselves.

Just imagine in 100 years we'll be laughing at what we do today just as today we laugh at what they do 100 years ago.


"Parents sent to jail for vaccinating their children with mercury."

Originally posted by Angus123
I find this outrageous, but not surprising...

A central Wisconsin couple who prayed rather than seeking medical care for their 11-year-old dying daughter were sentenced to six months in jail and 10 years probation in the girl's death.

People have gotten more time for beating their dog.

I'd like to know where it's written in scriptures that going to the doctor is a sin.

This is sick. It has nothing to do with Gods' compassion. It has everything to do with the "parents" idiocy.

Originally posted by brainwreck
Good news.

Nutjobs like these deserve prison for life.

What about the fact that she may be better of not living on this planet with filth. No one knows what the real answer to this is. Why would anyone want to bring someone into this world, for these people to decide things like this.

Doctors and police are killing people all the time, so why are they not locked up in prison, oh no, i forgot they are scum and thats what society wants.

Theres no winners in that story, it's just incredibly sad. Im fine with people having faith but for it to have such a hold you would risk a family members life on your own convictions just seems like brainwashing to me. Maybe its easier to hold the faith when it someone elses life on the line.

I dont think the jail sentence serves a purpose, there not bad people who are a danger to society; as punishment they should be forced to do community service, maybe in a childrens hospital they might just see their god in the compassion and hard work of the doctors and nurses who are actively trying to answer parents prayers.

It could be a cult thing, you never know.

Originally posted by Hyde70

Hey dad, you wanna hear something funny? There was a man who was drowning, and a boat came, and the man on the boat said "Do you need help?" and the man said "God will save me". Then another boat came and he tried to help him, but he said "God will save me", then he drowned and went to Heaven. Then the man told God, "God, why didn't you save me?" and God said "I sent you two boats, you dummy!"

love it just love thats so funny

Originally posted by Angus123
If I as a mere mortal would save this child if it was in my power, why would a compassionate, loving God just let her die?
Either we humans are morally superior to our creator or he simply isn't there.

Another possibility is that God has no interest in doing things for people that they are fully capable of doing themselves. Why would God heal their daughter when the most logical thing for them to do is go to a doctor? I consider this to be laziness on their part.
If God isn't real, obviously the girl dies.
If God IS real, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't approve of irrational requests.

In my opinion, they deserve jail for either scenario. They allowed the girl to die.

Just like the starving children that are forced into sex slavery. God sent them tons of boats.... they could have left.... or even used the telephone.

See, those children that are raped and forced into slavery had TONS of boats that god gave them... so now they deserve to suffer and die.

/sarcasm.

I wish i could reach through this monitor.

It's ironic that some religious nut jobs can be soooooo PRO-LIFE, until it comes to medicine....then it's all about the opposite.

Plain and simple, this is neglect...I hope their prayers were answered!

No-one has the right to let someone else die if the means of saving are available.

No-one has a right over anyone, and that includes their children.

Unfortunately, too many people think they have rights over others.

[edit on 10/17/2009 by double_frick]

Prosecutors claimed that the Neumanns recklessly killed their youngest of four children by ignoring obvious symptoms of severe illness as she became too weak to speak, eat, drink or walk.

took the time to read the article. and retract my insistence they had the right of choice here. it sounds more like neglect than choice. i was thinking this was a similar scenario as that boy with cancer that didn't want chemo. i think THAT kid should have a choice to use alternative therapy as he wishes.

[edit on 10/17/2009 by double_frick]