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"Ban the Koran" says Dutch politician

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posted on Oct, 12 2009 @ 07:32 PM
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Originally posted by fraterormus
Just like the Christian Bible passages can be used for convey a peaceful message or a message of violence, hate, and intolerance, so can the Qu'ran.

And it's not just the Abrahamic religious texts that are that way.

So, what do we do then? Ban all Religions that have Religious Texts with content that any minority disagrees with?

Not all Muslims are violent extremists that adhere to strict and literal sharia, commit pedophilia, and polygamy. Those are the rare exceptions to the rule, just as those kind of extremists are exceptions to the rule amongst Christians.

If we don't allow Freedom of Religion (or lack thereof) and the Wall of Separation to stand for ALL Religions, even if we don't agree with them, then what use is our Constitution? Constitutional Rights were never meant to be conditional or provisional. They were absolutes and unalienable. As such, any true Patriot of Democracy or our Constitution should be outright against the banning of any Religion.

I think people like this, suggesting the banning of any Religious Belief other than their own are no better than the extremists they are hating and speaking out against.

Boo be unto Geert Wilders! Your intolerance gives Atheists a bad name! (Who are equally protected under Freedom of Religion, I may add!)
[edit on 8-10-2009 by fraterormus]


Remember this article is about Holland so the US Constitution is irrelevant.




posted on Oct, 12 2009 @ 08:03 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 




Nothing to get mad about, bad people do bad things all time, as the saying goes, no use crying over spilt mil.


so you see how you are?


As far as your reply goes, you just made up a bunch of stuff, and claimed it was what I said, when I did not say any of the nonsense you made up.


let's see if you're right :-)




Never said to ban Muslim styles of dress or religious symbols. I stated that we need to ban two very specific items that Muslim women are forced to wear, burqas and head scarves.


which is, in fact - Muslim dress - didn't make it up. My mentioning religious symbols was not specifically directed towards you - but the current thinking being discussed in Europe - and here I might as well add



People can't walk around naked, because it is offensive, or wear T shirts with offensive language, and they should not be allowed to force their wives to travel in a cloth prison, it is offensive.


so many ways to go with this...

I don't know if you have a wife, girlfriend, daughter or sister? pretty sure you have a mother

should they wear bras? not interested in your reply as a man - interested in your thinking on this as a husband, boyfriend, brother, father or son



Once again, a gross distortion of my opinion, and not all all what I have said, you are just making stuff up, and all conquistadors are baby makers. Those are some pretty big mental gymnastics you are doing here.


several times you mention conquest via the womb - not making stuff up - not mental gymnastics - just words



First you go after Whites, now Mexicans. Sounds racist to me, at least I am basing my opinion on what you have stated.


try reading what I said again - or would you just rather not? Maybe it is easier to imply and run?



Once again, I never said anything about them not being able to reproduce.


it was you who said this:



What is the birth rate of Palestine?

Conquest by the womb is exactly what Muslims are trying to do.

so what did you mean by this?

as for the rest - you may be sincere in your support of Muslim women - I can't really know for sure

my argument is that this support comes across as a way to justify an anti-Muslim sentiment - one that's been expressed in this thread and many others

my apologies if I'm wrong

however - I am anxious to see your response to the question above



posted on Oct, 12 2009 @ 09:42 PM
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reply to post by Spiramirabilis
 


See how you are.

I say ban the burqa and the head scarves, and you claim I want to ban Muslim dress, when they could still wear all other styles of Muslim dress. It was a complete and intentional misrepresentation.

Of course you ignored all of the other distortions you have made.

What do women wearing bras have to do with the fact that people can't walk around clothing optional, or with offensive language on Tee shirts. The point remains the same, there are existing laws that govern what we are allowed to wear. What are you implying, that I think all women should run around in skimpy outfits for my pleasure? That is insulting. There are a great many options between burqa and stripper costume.

Saying conquest by the womb does not come close to saying that Muslims should not be allowed to breed. There is a massive difference.

You should go back and read what you said, it is racially derogatory on many levels. I am not worried abut how many white people there are, there are more than enough. Your comment here was not only uncalled for, it implies that all I care about are white people, because by your racially stereotyping me in this way, you attack me based on your opinion of how I must think because I am white. In fact most of your assumptions of my opinions have had a pretty biased slant.

You imply that Mexicans in the U.S. are like Muslims in Europe, and that is painting both sides in a stereotypical manner that has nothing to do with the situation. There isn't a cultural problem between Mexico and the U.S.. Our cultures blend pretty well. The problem is illegal immigration, which has nothing to do with religion or culture, but you make it out to be a problem of discrimination. Once again, projecting your stereotypical attitude about others.

Since I have answered two of your questions, please answer one for me.

Have you ever tried to open up a little and see that maybe this issue has nothing to do with discrimination or bias of any kind, and everything to do with what is right or wrong?

No need to apologize, we are just sharing different perspectives.

I think the only people who would be upset about the banning of burqas and head scarves are the radicals seeking conquest.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 07:42 AM
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reply to post by poet1b
 





Saying conquest by the womb does not come close to saying that Muslims should not be allowed to breed. There is a massive difference.


doesn't answer my question - not even close

so - what did you mean when you said:



What is the birth rate of Palestine?

Conquest by the womb is exactly what Muslims are trying to do.


it's a simple question poet1b - what did you mean by this?

I live in this country - as do you

do not even start with me on the immigration issue

if you haven't heard anyone mention the "numbers" and how whites will be outnumbered in the near future - then it's because you're not listening

on purpose



Since I have answered two of your questions, please answer one for me.

Have you ever tried to open up a little and see that maybe this issue has nothing to do with discrimination or bias of any kind, and everything to do with what is right or wrong?


you've sidestepped my questions - not answered them

define right and wrong for me here - and I will happily answer your question

this ought to be good

what is the right and the wrong in this situation?





[edit on 10/13/2009 by Spiramirabilis]



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 11:00 AM
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reply to post by poet1b
 

Hey Poet!
See, there is a huge assumption here on your part. You automatically equate headscarves/burqa with "oppression" "slavery", etc., and that isn't really fair (or true).

Just as you have plenty of anecdotal evidence about how all these men you see are leading their wives about in mobile tents as "slaves", and how you believe at a fundamental level, woman like to appear "pretty"; I have plenty of anecdotal evidence about women I know who consider the headscarf a symbol of their liberation, so that they don't have to be judged as a woman first and human second, so that they aren't just viewed as a pretty piece of meat, and wish to be taken seriously etc.
Now for some extreme examples(not necessarily to set the rules, or say "This is how it is", but just to show how extreme your position is):


  1. Stereotypical ditzy blonde who doesn't seem serious

  2. I'm a human being, take me seriously (Or if you're a certain kind of close-minded westerner, "I'm being oppressed by my muslim husband").



Should we ban dog-collars/leads because some people use them to tie up the dog in one place and never let them free?

Should we ban full-length skirts because it might be because some husbands might be forcing their wives not to show their legs?

Now I agree with you SLIGHTLY on the matter of the burqa. In some situations, it is detrimental. If a woman is a teacher, it would be helpful if her face (and her mouth) is visible so that the students can see how to speak and stuff like that. If a woman is a doctor, or works in a hospital, there may be elderly people, or deaf people, who subconsciously rely on seeing the mouth move to understand what a person is saying. So it kinda depends on what work a person is doing in their day-to-day lives.

Other than that, clothes are clothes. Freedom of expression and all that. Somewhat illegal to ban them.

Also, you haven't really thought this through. Is it only the muslim women who will be prohibited? What if they're wearing very provocative clothes, but have a headscarf on top? What about hindu women (who've assimilated some Islamic clothes into their culture)? Is it only one sort of head-scarf? The "dupatta"? Are they allowed to wear a shawl around their shoulders, but it will not be allowed if they wear it over their head? What if it is cold? Will they be allowed if they show 1 inch of hair? 1/2 an inch? Not allowed at all? Is it allowed if some arbitrary group considers it "fashionable" (instead of purely functional), will it be allowed? You see, while calling for such a blanket ban might be easy (if not somewhat naive), actually implementing it would be crazy, requiring tip-toeing around racism, religious intolerance, prejudice, and male chauvinism.

Ban?
Ban?
Ban?
Ban?
Ban?
Ban?
Ban?



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 11:17 AM
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Originally posted by Jinni
What I don't understand is that if Islam is such a terrible [insert metaphor here] religion then why is the fastest growing religion in the world?

Men AND women around the world are turning to the Islamic religion from other faiths, mosques are full on Friday which is unlike the attendance that Christianity receives during Sunday. 'Mohammed' is the world's most popular name and the Koran is the most sold book.

One could attribute it to births [some may think they like to have many kids] but I am seeing many many converts too.

If Islam had such flawed principles then I doubt it would be where it is today.




That isn't true, islam is not the fastest growing religion, that is a falsehood that has been circulated the past couple of years, part of the islamic propoganda machine.

Muslims don't just dissaprove of just Christians; they dissaprove of Jews, and anyone who isn't muslim. They are taught to "kill the infidel" and anyone who is not muslim is the infidel.

I don't want to overgeneralize, but if I recall, when the twin towers were destroyed, muslims of every gender and age literally danced in the streets. Little kids and old women included.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 11:17 AM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


hail fellow - well met

thank you



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 11:20 AM
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reply to post by Bombeni
 





I don't want to overgeneralize


then don't

put your money where your mouth is Bombeni - how many Muslims do you know personally (and I do mean personally) that were taught - actually taught - to kill anybody?



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 11:30 AM
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You guys are comparing apples and oranges.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by Bombeni
 





I don't want to overgeneralize


then don't

put your money where your mouth is Bombeni - how many Muslims do you know personally (and I do mean personally) that were taught - actually taught - to kill anybody?


You are rearranging my words. The rest of the paragraph spoke of the celebrations in ME countries due to 9/11. True story.

I know a LOT of muslims, my family has been in the fast food business many many years. I've heard plenty. I am not talking fantasy ok? Muslims have a culture, and even when they immigrate to the US, it is very hard for them to completely change their culture. The men are extremely controlling of their wives and children. I've seen more than a few black eyes on muslim wives. While it is true their is spousal abuse in all societies, few societies can match the muslim as far as the abusive controlling treatment of the women. But to the women who have grown up in that culture, it is normal. Fortunately there are some muslim women now who are taking up the cause and trying to make changes for the women, but it is going to be a long long wait.

If you want to promote Islam, you've come to the wrong place.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 11:52 AM
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reply to post by Bombeni
 



You are rearranging my words. The rest of the paragraph spoke of the celebrations in ME countries due to 9/11. True story.


I don't give a rodent's hind end about the rest of the paragraph

why do people keep insisting that I've rearranged things that are in print right in front of all our noses?

why is it so difficult for people to answer a question directly?



Muslims don't just dissaprove of just Christians; they dissaprove of Jews, and anyone who isn't muslim.

They are taught to "kill the infidel" and anyone who is not muslim is the infidel.


so - I'll ask again - how many Muslims do you know - on a first name basis - that were taught to kill anybody?



If you want to promote Islam, you've come to the wrong place.


duh

your international expertise and no doubt extensive knowledge of Muslim culture and psychology gathered from doing hard time in the fast food industry aside - I don't think you're looking at the whole picture

I think you see what you want to see

while that is an easy thing to say - and it applies perhaps equally to everyone - including myself...I find this statement to be very revealing:



Muslims have a culture, and even when they immigrate to the US, it is very hard for them to completely change their culture.


so how about it - can you answer my question?

by the way - there were more than a few black eyes in the Polish community earlier in the last century - I happen to know this is true

same with the Czechs - Ukrainians, Italians...

hard times on immigrants might be one reason - and people used to spout the same nonsense about all of them - and more

but I've seen a few black eyes among the blue bloods as well - among other things

weak argument





[edit on 10/13/2009 by Spiramirabilis]



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
I say ban the burqa..


Poet1b -don't know if you've seen it before but theres an extensive link here detailing mandatory burqa wearing and women's rights abuses under islam.
It also contains some highly disturbing images of women being beaten, scalded and stoned to death.


This article is a fatwa to unveil the veil and liberate the world from violent and lethal punishments for adultery. It is designed to be explanatory, for Muslims, and non-Muslims alike, on the status of the veil, and its more oppressive forms. If you are a Muslim, it is set out as a valid religious opinion. If you are not a Muslim, its grounds are human common sense and compassion. It includes scientific and biological arguments, which are valid for all human beings, traversing all human cultures, and have implications for the practices of other religions as well as Islam. In religious terms, this is a fatwa rejecting the claim that, under Muslim teachings, women are required to wear the veil, or that it is desirable to do so.


Link:
www.dhushara.com...



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 01:42 PM
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reply to post by Spiramirabilis
 


Your post is much too long to quote here. What was that, a dig at people who own or operate fast food businesses? Is there something dishonest about that? I imagine you've had your share of chili cheese fries. And didn't you say, you see what you want to see? Were you looking in a mirror when you said that? I said my FAMILY was in the fast food business, as in, owning one. I didn't say I work there. I have worked at a state college for 24 years.

I live in America so no one has personally told me he wishes to kill to non-muslims. Would a cowboy walk into a biker bar and tell people he wanted to take a few bikers out of the way? To steal one of your words: duh. But this isn't muslim country. Head yourself over to the middle east where the sentence is death for abandoning the muslim faith, where you might get a more REALISTIC answer to your question.



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 02:00 PM
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reply to post by Bombeni
 




Your post is much too long to quote here.


as per usual


What was that, a dig at people who own or operate fast food businesses? Is there something dishonest about that?


of course not

deflection? you want to make this personal? nice try

you were the one that chose to use that bit of information - supposedly to your advantage - as something that might somehow give you inside knowledge regarding Muslim culture

I simply don't feel that it makes what you know about Muslims any more insightful than what anybody, anywhere - in any other profession - might know about Muslims


I live in America


as do I - and I have met real life Muslims - right here - in America

some of them have been close friends


so no one has personally told me he wishes to kill to non-muslims. Would a cowboy walk into a biker bar and tell people he wanted to take a few bikers out of the way? To steal one of your words: duh. But this isn't muslim country. Head yourself over to the middle east where the sentence is death for abandoning the muslim faith, where you might get a more REALISTIC answer to your question.


now all that was just silly - but thank you - I'm more in the mood for silly now

have you ever lived in the Middle East - or in any Islamic countries ever - at all?

also - thank you for a real answer to my real question

I mean that sincerely



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 02:29 PM
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reply to post by Spiramirabilis
 


Well you're just as welcome as you can be. And by the way, I have muslim friends too, a few. Some that immigrate may reject the muslim teachings, mostly the women who see what it is like for American women who have freedom. But muslim men, they keep a lot of secrets when they immigrate, you can be sure of that. I don't need to be educated about them, I've learned more than I ever really cared to.

If you want a thorough essay on the modern muslim jump over to the thread "Is Islam the Synagogue of Satan" and read the post on the last page I think, by loosh. You'd find it most interesting.




[edit on 13-10-2009 by Bombeni]



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 02:37 PM
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reply to post by Bombeni
 


will have to do it later

but thanks for the info

I will say this

I never decide anything about anyone - group or individual - based on hearsay

now I have to leave - here in my real life

later Bombeni



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 02:39 PM
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Check out these pictures, namely that of a muslim woman with a sign telling us to "beware of the REAL holocaust" --- and how about "Behead those who insult Islam" -- "Islam will rule the world" -- for anyone to question the intent of the muslim world now is ludicrous. You'd have to hide behind a chat room entity to have the nerve.

oops forgot the link originalsongsite.com...

[edit on 13-10-2009 by Bombeni]



posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 04:34 PM
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reply to post by Spiramirabilis
 



put your money where your mouth is Bombeni - how many Muslims do you know personally (and I do mean personally) that were taught - actually taught - to kill anybody?


OKAY , THEN. DENY THERE AREN'T ANY!

"I don't give a rodent's hind end about the rest of the paragraph." It says something about you.

I knew 2 men , we were freinds as children but as they grew older they changed. JAMAL and ASSEF. Now I testify that this is the truth and I'm not just saying so . JAMAL was a TERRORIST, ASSEF was HARDLINE FUNDAMENTAL , both were indoctrinated to hate and kill by their local mosque , a small rundown shia mosque. There's a much larger , fancy sunni mosque across town this is in a "Christian" country .

BUT here's the killer , how would you know if I knew them or not?
(Other than me telling you so e.i hearsay)





posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by De La Valletta
 


My Hero.




posted on Oct, 13 2009 @ 06:07 PM
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Originally posted by De La Valletta
reply to post by Spiramirabilis
 



put your money where your mouth is Bombeni - how many Muslims do you know personally (and I do mean personally) that were taught - actually taught - to kill anybody?


OKAY , THEN. DENY THERE AREN'T ANY!

"I don't give a rodent's hind end about the rest of the paragraph." It says something about you.

I knew 2 men , we were freinds as children but as they grew older they changed. JAMAL and ASSEF. Now I testify that this is the truth and I'm not just saying so . JAMAL was a TERRORIST, ASSEF was HARDLINE FUNDAMENTAL , both were indoctrinated to hate and kill by their local mosque , a small rundown shia mosque. There's a much larger , fancy sunni mosque across town this is in a "Christian" country .

BUT here's the killer , how would you know if I knew them or not?
(Other than me telling you so e.i hearsay)





So you are judging over a billion people in the world based on some -potentially- exceptional cases (where there may be a story behind those exceptional cases e.g. they are mad, manipulated, forced, employed by secret service etc).

If that is the case then the rest of the world must be child raping, satanist, sado-machositic, lying, mass murdering, wife beating, polygamous, racist, fascist, cannibal drunkards. I can find thousands of case for each of the points above that are non-muslim, so shall we now perceive the non-muslim world as above? I don't think so.

What we have here are brainwashed, hypnotised, conditioned with hate posters that do nothing but post anti-muslim poppycock as if they are being paid $$ by the blog post.




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