"Ban the Koran" says Dutch politician

reply to post by Jinni

Originally posted by Jinni
What I don't understand is that if Islam is such a terrible [insert metaphor here] religion then why is the fastest growing religion in the world? Men AND women around the world are turning to the Islamic religion from other faiths, mosques are full on Friday which is unlike the attendance that Christianity receives during Sunday. 'Mohammed' is the world's most popular name and the Koran is the most sold book. One could attribute it to births [some may think they like to have many kids] but I am seeing many many converts too. If Islam had such flawed principles then I doubt it would be where it is today.

JIHAD MY FRIEND JINNI , JIHAD. WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS TRY TAQIYYAH.

NOTHING LIKE IT EXCEPT FOR INQUISITION.

You see there is FAST JIHAD when the muslims are capable to fight the infidel on equal terms or when the infedel is weak.
This takes the form of war and genocide.Mostly carried out in Africa , India and The Balkans.

Then there is SLOW JIHAD where the muslim must keep low but resist on invisible , non-violent terms or high casualty to martyr ratio as he is outnumbered or has no power but is preparing for FAST JIHAD.
This is civil disobedience , protests , bribing politicians , suicide attacks , assassination of opponents , aggressive immigration , aggressive breeding , kidnapping. Basically INFILTRATION and SUBVERSION with some SABOTAGE.

The SLOW JIHAD is used mostly on enemies that are stronger than the UMMA (muslim community) and carried out covertly so as to attract as little attention as possible from them.This form is currently being carried out on the WEST , who's CORRUPT POLITICIAN can be bought and if not bought , blackmailed.

THE 1970S OIL CRISIS was a major victory as OPEC mostly muslim countries , held the WEST'S OIL FIX at ransom because they were feeling sore that their invasion of Israel had failed yet again. Our dependence on foreign energy just like a heroine addicts dependence made us the junky prostitute and the muslims the pimp , we were made to bow low and s#@k. America was spared most of the abuse as Bad Boy REAGAN HAD SOME B@@LLS and may have actually did the smart thing and used force. Europe's leaders did not have balls OPEC made them sign away the future and past of all Europeans living today,yesterday and to come. The nasty deal was for Europe to halt all support of Israel and to allow unregulated muslim invasion (immigration) of Europe under the guise of multiculturalism and the need for labour. In other words roll over and play dead.

TAQIYYAH meaning to conceal , is a concept in SHIA ISLAM JURISPRUDENCE that lets a muslim LIE about his faith to protect himself or his own. This is very insidious because of the way the koran is written as it follows the rule of ABROGATION , the latter verses overrule the former verses so if the koran says peace in an earlier verse later it will say kill them , so the later verse trumps the former and most of the peaceful verses are up front while the terrible verses of hate are at the back this is for two reasons one being to trick the disbeliever and two because that is the chronology of MOHAMMED'S movement he started out peaceful when that didn't work he went berserk and became a thieving , murdering , rapine , bandit. Now when a person picks up a koran he will see it's first verses as peaceful and flowery and be convinced it's a good religion but most muslim converters do not show you these verses and tell you about abrogation untill you become a muslim and have become fully indoctrinated then they move on to the HADITH which are the stories of the life of mohammed and his followers and they're ten times more full of hate and nasty deeds carried out in the name of islam at mohammed's request.

Also they conceal the fact that many muslims leave islam in the thousands every day to become either christian , buddhist or atheists but must hide this as muslim APOSTATES ARE ORDERED TO BE EXECUTED by order of the koran;

Koran 4:89 They would have you disbelieve as they themselves have disbelieved, so that you may be all like alike. Do not befriend them until they have fled their homes for the cause of God. If they desert you seize them and PUT THEM TO DEATH wherever you find them. Look for neither friends nor helpers among them…”

Oh and because something spreads fast doesn't mean it's good , stupidity is spreading fast and I don't see you cheering for that , disease spreads fast. Just means it's a self fulfilling prophecy ; a false assertion that causes followers of the prophecy to act on the assertion to MAKE IT COME TRUE to legitimise the prophesy thus the religion.Forcing their way through.


So to summarize how it spread so fast and is around today ; AGGRESSION , COERCION , LIES AND IGNORANCE.

Originally posted by Udo Hohnekamp Lux.
Jinni (the devil), you have answered to my post, but you have not read it.

When Islam threatens its adherents by death penalty for apostasy (giving up
one´s own faith and/or converting to another), they can only increase the
number of their followers.

Every believing non-Muslim girl, when marrying an unbelieving Muslim, has
to convert to Islam. Unbelieving Muslim girls are generally not allowed by
their families to marry believing non-Muslim Westerners.

So we are talking here of foul play, intolerance and violation of human rights.

Here again, this time hopefully clickable, the "Fitna" video :

www.liveleak.com...

Eh?

I wasn't answering your post! LOL.

Are you suggesting that Islam is expanding today in the west because people are being threatened with death? I think you have either lost your mind or listening to strange people!

Lastly, Jinni does not mean 'The Devil' so I'll end my response to your post right there because it seems like you need a cold shower.

[edit on 11-10-2009 by Jinni]

reply to post by Jinni
You may not have encountered these tactics but they do exist. Death to the apostate and no marriage without conversion.

reply to post by sirnex


In the Netherlands:

56% religious

39% Christian

5% Muslim

And the system is based upon a Christian way of thought. (Am I saying that the right way? hehe )


But I think your point is correct. Every country would protest against fundamentalist Muslims preaching violence.

Ok, so I'm going to do 2 separate posts on this issue, one that's perhaps seen as anti-islamic and one pro-islamic. Though they're not really either, no religion is as bad as the people who follow it when you think about it, they're ideas upon which we act.

So, these are some of the things i've personally seen and been told by people who are either muslims or middle eastern but have gone christian etc, some stuff i saw on the news too, but whatever.

Firstly on the news, a sheikh in Sydney a few years ago was saying that women who are not covered are like pieces of meat. Also women in skirts deserve to be raped etc. etc. I'm not a big fan of hating on people so i wont go too much further with that.

I have been told that the reason for headscarves is because men would be so overcome with lust for a woman that they would rape her in the middle east. Though there were gang rapings in Sydney, Australia a few years ago which were quite nasty sustained and organised attacks against non muslims because raping a muslim woman is bad but not a non-believer. This is far from the average muslims workings though and thankfully there haven't been any repeats like this.

I have heard some muslim people in these parts say if a woman wears a skirt or dresses 'provocatively' that she is 'asking' to be raped.

Interestingly i was also told that in the coming Abramic super apocalypse between all 3 religions of the book it would play out a little something like this.
Muslims plus christians must kill the unbelieving jews who will worship the antichrist/dajjal.

VICTORY!

Muslims must now kill christians because christians fought the war for Jesus and Muslims fought it for Allah.

Only the Muslims are left having effectively killed off everyone else who doesn't believe and who does believe (with slight variations) in their religion.

That is the part that bothers me, that people who are quite non fundamentalists are taught that when the time comes we must kill the jews and then the christians...

I'm against killing and also spouting hate/generally talking about bad things so I'm going to move on to a more positive post showing that there is change in the muslim world and that in general everyone's getting alot more tolerant, the fanatics after all are quite a small minority.

So now to write about something good that's happening in the world regarding these issues, and this isn't Taqqiya, this is actually happening. Just as an aside i was not previously aware of Taqqiya, I'm going to have to ask someone about that.

Anyway i read most of this in an issue of TIME magazine, to be very precise the October 19, 2009 issue.

There is an article titled 'Saudi's Small Steps' about how women are steadily winning rights and greater freedom in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

The media company Rotana uses same sex offices and the women are often in positions of power, they use women in HR to interview men to see if they're comfortable and able to be around women. Rotana is in a special position though as one of it's principal holders is Prince Alwaleed bin Talal bin Abdulaziz al-Saud who is a forward thinking member of the royal family.

Which is where I'm going to make my point, even though Rotana is a small drop in the ocean, it's important to note that it's the head of state who are pushing an agenda of equality.

"People used to say, 'Why is she working? Why does she need the money?' Now they say, 'it takes a woman to solve a problem.'"

It has been operating women's universities so women can get an education and the first co-educational university open in Saudi Arabia last month.

King Abdullah is so concerned about domestic violence in the kingdom that the 'National Family Safety Program' created in 1999 would be lead by his daughter princess Adelah in order to garner serious attention.

"For us as Arabs and Saudis and Muslims, you can't believe in these values and look at these stories and not want to put an and to them," Princess Adelah told TIME.

The last part I'll repeat is possibly one of the parts i am happiest with.

During a meeting in Abha, a city on the red sea, a senior judge argued that a husband sometimes needs to beat his wife - if she spends too much money shopping, for instance. The uproar from the women in the audience, and critical coverage from the local press, were signs that such attitudes are no longer acceptable. "One of the most important things my father did was initiate dialogue," says Princess Adelah. "Women need to be heard, and noone can speak for women but women."

So no, this didn't address radical Islam taking over through the use of the womb, but at least it shows that there are sensible people out there who have their heads screwed on, who are in positions of power and are willing to lead people into a better way of life. Regardless of whatever people might think the religion says.

Kudos to King Abdullah on that one!

Also the Naqab (face covering) has been banned by the highest religious authority in Egypt from being worn in educational institutions stating that it has no place in Islam. Another example of some non-radical all round cool dudes sorting things out.

I'm sure there are comebacks to this post, especially on this thread, but damn it's gloomy in here! Let's remember not all muslims are like Mohammed

And props to Andrew Lee Butters of TIME magazine for a great read!

reply to post by ShadowScholar


That's encouraging, thanks.

Hopefully with time, Princess Adelah & King Abdullah are able to extend their influence to neighbouring countries as well.

reply to post by poet1b

But they are being forced to wear them, through intimidation and harassment.

that's not necessarily true - anymore than anything a culture comes to accept as normal is being forced on them. There are many things that we do - or don't do - that seem reasonable here in the West (for those of us that reside in the West) that other people on this planet don't understand at all.

Deciding that the burkha or head coverings are only the result of intimidation, control or abuse shows some lack of understanding

While many are happy to wear them, it forces those who do not want them to comply, so the only answer is to completely ban them all together. The headscarves are just another way of forcing subservience.

Ban them because they are symbols of oppression.

Free the women, and end the attempt to conquer through the womb.

I understand how you see it - and what you intend - but I have to wonder - how many Muslim women do you know - what are their ages - and where are they from?

by deciding for them that it's in their best interest to ban them - it looks to me like just another attempt by men to decide what's right for women

In this case to indirectly use it as a weapon against Muslim men - a Trojan horse of sorts.

Banning the wearing of these also is not allowing for freedom of expression - religious or otherwise - and you are pretty much telling women that choose to dress themselves in this way that not only are they NOT welcome in public - but that they are doing something wrong.

Maybe, maybe not - not really up to "us" to decide - is it?

The way it looks - in reality - is that people fear and hate Muslims

pretty simple really

One or two short steps away from making them sew a "star" onto their sleeves and then start sealing off their neighborhoods

if the burka goes away - it should be because Muslim women themselves have decided they no longer care to wear them

Muslim women are perfectly capable of fighting their own battles - they already are, and will continue to do so - just as we did

They don't deserve to be used in this way - and they're not stupid

I know this sounds like an attack - but it's not - it sounds like a good thing superficially - free the women...

I hear this sort of thing all the time - we have this need to go around the world "liberating" people - freeing them from their outdated ways - educating them and saving them from their stupid, ignorant selves

Truthfully - we barely understand ourselves - it's a bit much to decide what's right or wrong for cultures that different from our own.

edit to ad:

about this conquering through the womb - I can't think of a way to explain how much I detest that saying - and that way of thinking

is what you're afraid of the possibility that there will not be enough white people in the future?

is that it then?

wake up - or admit - you support curbing the numbers - because that's what this is really about







[edit on 10/12/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

reply to post by ladyinwaiting

The muslims must be the most sexually oppressed and frustrated population of people on this planet. Sex is an important human function, of course, (I'm mean really. Are the men so sexually out of control they fear they might rape any woman they see without all that garb on?) Are they that terrified of becoming sexually aroused? And if they do, they blame the women for it?

couldn't the same be said of Baptists - along with other Christians?

even in Christianity - clothing styles have changed, attitudes towards women have changed - dancing is now allowed...mostly

:-)

[edit on 10/12/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Sorry, but it is completely true, Muslim women are forced to wear the burkas and the headscarves.

If you bothered to read what other posters are reporting, now European women in their own countries are being forced to wear the head scarves when they go through certain neighborhoods, and that is straight up wrong.

Another poster from Belgium, if I remember right, posted on another thread how when Muslims become the majority in a school the boys start harassing all girls who do not conform and start wearing headscarves.

If you do not see how completely wrong this is, then you are without a moral compass. You have no understanding of right and wrong. Somehow, you lost it.

Ban headscarves and burqas everywhere. Ban them in the airports, ban them everywhere.

You don't understand how I see it. You don't have a clue.

How many Muslim women do I know? About as many as I know trees. I see them all the time, but we do not have conversations. When they are with their husbands they do not even look at anyone, except women dressed the way they want to dress. When they are by themselves they are more curious. What I see is the misery, and resentment, especially when they see western women dressed the way they want to dress.

It has been my experience that women like to be pretty. They spend all that money on clothes and shoes, because they want to look good.

Just like many men, many women crave attention. They want to be seen as beautiful, interesting, and intelligent. This is kind of hard to do in a burka.

Maybe Muslim women are different than all other women, but I doubt it.

Here is a clue, you don't have to put a star on their sleeves, when they are wearing a burqa. The BURqA is one giant label, I am so repressed I can not show my face in public. My husband is my master. If I go outside I must be in a traveling prison.

It disgusts me. Am I not allowed to have a right to my own opinion?

In my own country?

I am not trying to go around the world liberating people, I just don't like seeing slavery being practiced when I go to the grocery store.

I am not trying to tell people how to live in their own countries, but I think I have a right to defend my own culture in my own country. Oppression of women is not acceptable in the Western world, IT IS WRONG. The way to stop it would be to first ban the burqa and the headscarves.

Just couldn't keep yourself from racially attacking white people, could you? Had to come back and edit in a racial comment. I know far more about you than you know about me.

It isn't that there are not enough white people, our population numbers are doing fine. There are too many people period. Have you ever looked at the changes in population over the last 100 years?

What is the birth rate of Palestine?

Conquest by the womb is exactly what Muslims are trying to do.

What you don't like is revelation of the truth.

reply to post by poet1b


Mr. Poet - you sound really, really angry

I wasn't attacking you - I was only disagreeing with you

Up for a genuine discussion - or are you going to go all pouty now and start hurling insults?

If you bothered to read what other posters are reporting, now European women in their own countries are being forced to wear the head scarves when they go through certain neighborhoods, and that is straight up wrong.

Yes - that is wrong - it's also not what I'm talking about

There has been a movement in Europe to ban the wearing of certain items by certain people - does this also include the cross?

I believe that no matter what your religion - whether or not any one else agrees with it or not - you are entitled to practice that religion however you see fit - so long as it doesn't interfere with any other groups right to do the same and it causes no harm

When you tell people they can't wear what they want - whether or not it's clothing, or a symbol - you are restricting their freedom of expression. I'm against that - even when it seems like the simplest, the most effective - the safest solution

In the end it won't solve the problem and you've only paved a smoother path to eliminating those rights for good - for anybody and everybody.

So - what you just described is a problem. Yes. The solution (to a problem that isn't really being defined here) is not to ban Muslim styles of dress - the solution is much more difficult than that.

Another poster from Belgium, if I remember right, posted on another thread how when Muslims become the majority in a school the boys start harassing all girls who do not conform and start wearing headscarves.

Your source for all this is one poster from Belgium? How many schools are we talking about - how many actual incidents?

Do you not see how easy it is for people to become hysterical based on individual anecdotes - that are repeated, and embellished - then passed on again?

If you do not see how completely wrong this is, then you are without a moral compass. You have no understanding of right and wrong. Somehow, you lost it.

Where is your moral compass sir?

You support treating an entire group of people (which incidentally can't really be treated as one group due to the fact that they are not any more "all the same" than any other group of people on this planet) as criminals - potential criminals - and baby making conquistadors

This is reprehensible. At least it is to me.

Ban headscarves and burqas everywhere. Ban them in the airports, ban them everywhere.

What gets banned next then? Nothing? Just the clothing? What problems does this solve? Please list them.

You don't understand how I see it. You don't have a clue.

I have plenty of clues

How many Muslim women do I know? About as many as I know trees. I see them all the time, but we do not have conversations.

I'm going to repeat my question - since you seem not to have understood it: how many Muslim women do you know? By their first name?

It has been my experience that women like to be pretty. They spend all that money on clothes and shoes, because they want to look good.

Just like many men, many women crave attention. They want to be seen as beautiful, interesting, and intelligent. This is kind of hard to do in a burka.

What does this have to do with anything? You want to ban these clothes because you can't see all the pretty girls? That will no doubt make you angry - but then we're even.

Muslim women do enjoy being pretty. Yes.

And a great many of them would dump their burkas in a heartbeat. Yes.

None of this has anything to do with what we're talking about here.

Ban the Koran? Ban their clothing? What else? Would you like to discuss forced sterilization? Deportation? What - what comes next?

Crime - is that all you're afraid of? There's crime all over - we don't need to rely on demonizing the Muslims in Europe - we have the Mexicans here in the states.

Same difference - well - no, not exactly the same - but close enough. They are a growing population too - and people here are freaking out - I kid you not.

Freaking out...and only a handful of disagreeable men and women are at least honest enough to come out and say why. Every one else is content to blame it on "crime" or other statistics that demonstrate that their numbers will lead to certain ruin for the American way of life.

:-)

Maybe Muslim women are different than all other women, but I doubt it.

Interesting. What about Muslim men - are they quite unlike other men then? So different from yourself? It's only the women that you find tolerable?

Here is a clue, you don't have to put a star on their sleeves, when they are wearing a burqa. The BURqA is one giant label, I am so repressed I can not show my face in public. My husband is my master. If I go outside I must be in a traveling prison.

You're right about this - all the easier then to round them up then - treat them as less than everyone else - because they are different and they don't live the way you believe they should all live. The correct way to live being exactly as you choose to live.

I'm going to remind you one more time that I asked - I am very interested to hear - how many Muslim women do you actually know? How many men for that matter?

It disgusts me. Am I not allowed to have a right to my own opinion?
In my own country?

Of course you are - as am I - why are you here? Can you only discuss things with people who think exactly as you do?

I am not trying to tell people how to live in their own countries, but I think I have a right to defend my own culture in my own country.

Is the only way you can enjoy and defend your own culture made possible by destroying the cultures of others? And before you bring up slavery again - I'm going to ask you - how many Muslim women do you actually know?

You talk about them as if they're cattle. :-)

Oppression of women is not acceptable in the Western world, IT IS WRONG. The way to stop it would be to first ban the burqa and the headscarves.

Should they stop being Muslim as well?

Oh that that were true - about oppression in the west. Even if it is mostly true - it's not completely true. But - recognizing where we are now in the west - this time where women are as near equal as they have ever been - how exactly did we achieve all this freedom and equality?

Interested to hear your view on this.

Just couldn't keep yourself from racially attacking white people, could you? Had to come back and edit in a racial comment. I know far more about you than you know about me.

I came back and added something I'd forgotten to put in earlier

Sir, are you calling me a racist?

Really?

Because I find the whole concept of attacking an entire people's right to reproduce morally reprehensible?

:-)

Conquest by the womb is exactly what Muslims are trying to do.

And how do you know this? Please be specific.

What you don't like is revelation of the truth.

Not true - I love the truth like nobody's business

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Hi Spira.....I absolutely agree with your thinking, and see your points.
But I don't think the correlation between the way muslim women and christian women are treated is a just parellel.

In fact, I think they are worlds, and worlds apart. About one year ago I met a Muslim woman who had been visiting my state, and tried to "fit in" with American women, consequently having participated in some "unsavory" behaviors. (Specifically, she had dated a non-muslim man).
When I met her, she was seeking santuary. Word had gotten "home" over some of her antics, and she assured us she would be put to death if she returned home. She was convincing in her belief of this. She would be killed.
I believed her. She was assisted in getting a visa here, until she could figure out what to do.
So, it is different. Whether we like it or whether we don't. It's different.
They play by their own rules like no others I've ever seen, and it's hard ball.
We want to be fair, and unbiased. Sometimes I think I offer the benefit of the doubt to the point of absurdity. But they are way, way different in their beliefs, standards of living, and mores of behaviors. So different that it can be difficult for us to accept. And maybe we do accept it. But we don't have to like it and we don't have to agree with it. Ya know?

The change is definitely happening, from what I've read King Abdullah would change alot more but realises you can't just change a strict society overnight, these things take time and patience to ensure we carry them out in the right way.

As i also mentioned Egypt has banned the Naqab in schools and universities, as they identify it not as a religious observance but as a middle eastern tradition, with no basis in the Koran.

Not many people realise that Saudi Arabia is basically always on the wests side in any disagreements, but it's pretty cool they can keep their way of life and dress and still be comfortable around us. Saudi Arabia also disagrees with Iran on alot of issues, as they're worried about a military build up in the middle east. As anyone with brains should be. Arms races tend to lead to wars.

I'm going to come out and say that perhaps Gert is a little ignorant on this topic, the problem is not the Koran or the muslims, the problem lies in quality education. If we look at muslims in the light of this thread we are looking at poorly educated refugees and immigrants trying to find a better life. There is always crime and a sense of danger when walking through less desirable neighbourhoods, whether islamic or not. Hell i used to live in Salford in the UK which is almost exclusively white and is one of the worst places for violent crime in the western world.

But i tell you what a muslim who is a doctor would never hit anyone for saying they don't believe in the koran, a muslim doctor would put just as much into saving your life in the emergency room than to a muslim and I'm pretty sure they'd sit down with you over a latte and discuss the finer points of islam.

If these people got a good chance at education, then they'd have a much better chance of integrating with society, you have to remember in these circumstances you're dealing with people who don't necessarily know better. If the state produced some good education programs for teaching the local language and giving workplace skills (proper ones) then you'd see a boost in the workforce and a reduction in crime.

A lack of education and NOT religion is the problem.

Also rather than talking about this issue I'm doing something about it, I personally am sick of talkers, I'm a doer. I am currently undertaking a bachelor of security, terrorism and counter-terrorism, and when i complete that I'm going to go for jobs in the most desolate god forsaken hell holes on earth, and i'll love it, you know why? I'm going to tell ANYONE with interests in these places (oil companies, occupying governments, contractors) to fix the problems they're encountering through education and tolerance. I'm going to do what i can to fix the world instead of being a commentator on it, then i can ensure things happen my way. Bullets don't fix things. End of story.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


hey Lady :-)

But I don't think the correlation between the way muslim women and christian women are treated is a just parellel.

I agree - completely - it's not exactly the same - and I am in no way saying that change isn't necessary

there are some things that absolutely must change - and I believe they will

it's just what kind of change, for what reasons - and who decides?

to me part of the problem with all this is - we expect everything to be simple - easy to define - easy to point at and fix

it's become too easy to look at a people, decide they're "different" and then decide that's wrong - especially if it suits our needs

I believe you - about the woman you just mentioned - I believe she probably did have good reason to fear for her safety - her life

you had mentioned how sexually repressed Islamic culture appears to be - especially as compared with our own culture

even within our own culture we disagree on many things - there was a time (still continues) where dancing was seen as something that would lead directly to hanky panky - so, no dancing

:-)

there was also a time - not too long ago - when certain races were considered to be "oversexed"

some Mormons (apparently - I can't say I know this first hand) wear specific kinds of underwear - and there's more...

we all have our stuff

some people - even within our own culture - think we could all stand to wear more clothing - some wish for less

when I made my rather flip comparison between Islam and Christianity earlier - the only real point I was trying to make is this:

change takes time - and it doesn't come (for real) by issuing decrees - even when we believe we are making them for the right reasons

I believe real change has to happen from within the culture itself

[edit on 10/12/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Absolutely agreed. Americans can be arrogant at times in thinking they have the right to make everyone like us, correct every perceived wrong, and pass judgments on what should, and should not be allowed. I have always found American arrogance dispicable.

The change should come within the culture itself. And that is their business, I totally agree. But the fear comes, and you are right, it is fear which motivates us as far as they are concerned....this fear comes when they seem capable of extreme physical violence and manipulation to cause others to adapt to their way of life.

I don't consider the fear to be "fear of diminishing whites......" I consider it, in my case, fear of losing a way of life. I don't want to be a Muslim.
I really don't. At the same time I do want to respect other cultures, and other religions. For the most part I do. But that has to be a two-way street. I need to be respected also. Especially my freedom. I am almost phobic when it comes to anything threatening my freedom, or trying to control me.

[edit to add- So yes, I guess I do perceive facets of this group as a threat.


[edit on 10/12/0909 by ladyinwaiting]

reply to post by ladyinwaiting

I am almost phobic when it comes to anything threatening my freedom, or trying to control me.

This will only sound condescending - I hope you understand how I mean it

Your fear (our fears) is what makes it possible for other people to control you

when we are told the Muslims are out to conquer the world - our fear makes us too afraid to take a chance on this NOT being true - even when we don't quite believe it

What do the Muslims fear? What are they being told - and by who?

You see? Plenty of fear to go around - they are no different from us

Originally posted by Solidus Green eye
We'll I'll give the man one thing.
He's brave, because his precursor 'Pim Fortuyn' got shot in the head.
And another visionary 'Theo van Gogh' got stabbed to death and shot in the head for making a movie about the islam and their beliefs.

Sick isn't it.

Who stabbed the Zeitgeist guy? or Bill Maher? no one... It's basic probability, muslims are more likely to kill other people for their beliefs (meaning right now, not 500 years ago)

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Oh, I'm sure they are paranoid and anxious as can be. Of course they are.

But nix on the controlling me. I think I was about nine years old when I made a promise to myself that I would always control my own decisions.
So far, I've kept that promise.

It's a very, very complicated situation. I don't pretend to know what the answer is. I just hope it's not continued war and terrorism.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


LOL!

I think I was about nine years old when I made a promise to myself that I would always control my own decisions.

So far, I've kept that promise.

I made a very similar promise to myself - but I had to wait until I was 12 to be that smart

so far, so good...

It's a very, very complicated situation. I don't pretend to know what the answer is. I just hope it's not continued war and terrorism.

amen

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Nothing to get mad about, bad people do bad things all time, as the saying goes, no use crying over spilt mil.

As far as your reply goes, you just made up a bunch of stuff, and claimed it was what I said, when I did not say any of the nonsense you made up.

The solution (to a problem that isn't really being defined here) is not to ban Muslim styles of dress

Never said to ban Muslim styles of dress or religious symbols. I stated that we need to ban two very specific items that Muslim women are forced to wear, burqas and head scarves. Would it be ok if some guy took his wife out all the time in shackles? Because it is basically the same thing.

People can't walk around naked, because it is offensive, or wear T shirts with offensive language, and they should not be allowed to force their wives to travel in a cloth prison, it is offensive.

They can wear all the religious symbols they want, but they should not be allowed to a symbol of oppression.

You support treating an entire group of people (which incidentally can't really be treated as one group due to the fact that they are not any more "all the same" than any other group of people on this planet) as criminals - potential criminals - and baby making conquistadors

Once again, a gross distortion of my opinion, and not all all what I have said, you are just making stuff up, and all conquistadors are baby makers. Those are some pretty big mental gymnastics you are doing here.

What does this have to do with anything? You want to ban these clothes because you can't see all the pretty girls? That will no doubt make you angry - but then we're even.

Ban the Koran? Ban their clothing? What else? Would you like to discuss forced sterilization? Deportation? What - what comes next?

Crime - is that all you're afraid of? There's crime all over - we don't need to rely on demonizing the Muslims in Europe - we have the Mexicans here in the states.

Is the only way you can enjoy and defend your own culture made possible by destroying the cultures of others? And before you bring up slavery again - I'm going to ask you - how many Muslim women do you actually know?

You talk about them as if they're cattle. :-)

Wow, those are some pretty big leaps of assumptions you are making. How do you get to these opinions, when you have essentially agreed to every point I actually made. You have based your whole post on stuff I never came close to saying, and these are not beliefs that I hold. Not to mention that you have taken some pretty cheap shots at me here.

And what is wrong with the Mexicans? I get along fine with Mexicans, and all people of color, even people from the Middle East. First you go after Whites, now Mexicans. Sounds racist to me, at least I am basing my opinion on what you have stated.

Should they stop being Muslim as well?

No, they should stop treating their women like cattle. It is offensive.

Because I find the whole concept of attacking an entire people's right to reproduce morally reprehensible?

Once again, I never said anything about them not being able to reproduce.

Banning the ability of Muslims, or anyone, from being able to treat their women like slaves, forcing them to wear clothing specifically designed to eliminate their rights as human beings is the first place to start. Like I explained earlier, setting up shelters to protect women from honor killings would be another step. Prosecuting those people who seek to enslave others is exactly what should be done.

This is what I am talking about.

Do some research, there are plenty of articles by Muslim women talking about these offenses. I don't need to get to know a women on a first base name to know about the problem. I certainly shouldn't be trying to talk to a woman who clearly does not want to talk with me, because she just might get her butt kicked when she gets home, and no one will know because she has to cover here body from head to toe in public.

At some point in time, people need to start taking a stand for what is right.

You do agree this is a problem. You have admitted this.

Muslim men dress however they want. When I see the men dressed like the women, then I have respect. When the guy is wearing a suit, and his wife is wearing a curtain, then I am offended.

How did we get to our levels of freedom. Social evolution mainly. It is a thing. 'Thing' is literally the name of a meeting ancient Europeans would have, where the laws of a community would be decided by the men in that community, as opposed to the laws being created by a guy who claims that he talks to god. A few centuries ago an Englishman came up with the concept of the rights of man, and a balance of power in government. Then some colonists staged a revolution and started a nation based on those rights. Not everyone was granted rights at the beginning, but it was still a huge step forward. Eventually through various movements, people fought for their rights, and guess what, they were supported by those who, while among the group in power, felt that these types of oppressions were wrong. In a nut shell, this is how things went down.

So what is wrong with people of the western world seeking to help free Muslim women from oppression, especially considering that these women are asking for help.