Abortion, the death penalty, and euthanasia , page 3
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 6 times


reply posted on 8-10-2009 @ 09:07 PM by Raist
reply to post by Blaine91555


You know I am as well. I am actually pleased this thread has even gained the life it has.

I invited quite a few people some I knew would have a different view than myself and those that might feel the same. Some I had no idea how they would feel. Others I completely forgot to invite because of the U2U thing keeping you from sending them too quickly. It took me some time to invite those I did.

I am not looking to change minds with this thread I simply am hoping we all can at least get a better chance to see the views more closely of others even if they are in disagreement. If we can at least has some coming together on something we can progress past having politicians deciding this for us. We could actually decide it for ourselves.

Much like I said I am against abortions but know they are going to happen. I think if they are going to happen we should possibly find a spot that they are no longer aloud at. I am surprised to say the least that some would say let them go up until the day of birth, but I should have guessed there might be a few like that.

I think that at some point we surely can see that the child should at least be born premature rather than aborting it and let it be put up for adoption. Surely that seems less cruel than the murder of a child weeks from being born.

I was not making the thread for flags though it is nice to see it get a few. I made it mostly to get some things on my mind out. It took me days to get the jumble that I did out. It seems rather messy but it all sort of spilled out at one time. I was hoping we could all get a good discussion going and so far it seems it is a good discussion. For the most part all is civil and people seem to be bringing their points out in a great manner (even if I disagree with them). Yes I am pretty pleased with how well the thread is going so far.

I want to thank all who have added to it so far and hope it grows more. Not only will this help us further understand each other but it will help me understand the opposing sides better in a thread designed for such a discussion. So many other threads could be derailed or taken off topic to discuss these topics so I added them all into one.

Death is something that is coming for each of us and is highly personal. Here we can discuss the unnatural forms brought on by mankind.

Raist


reply posted on 8-10-2009 @ 09:59 PM by A Fortiori
Originally posted by Raist
reply to post by A Fortiori


I never thought about the technology part of abortion.

I think I recall reading/hearing/seeing something about ancient abortions though it might have just been some vague dream I had as well.


There are some references to what might have been abortifacients in the ancient world, but given that they had "pater familia" laws in most cultures, not to mention that adoption in certain states like Rome was a big market, it just was not an issue.

I believe you are on to something though with the technology giving us the ability to make the decisions we do today. I guess in the cases of an unwanted child they could have murdered it soon after birth in times far in the past, but I also think that there would be many who might change their minds after seeing their child.


And that is also a stone in my heel, my cousin went to a clinic to get information on abortions and had to fight to see the sonogram. Once she saw it she changed her mind because he suddenly became "real" to her. How does anyone know how they will feel nine months later, or how life's circumstances might change?

But...society has spoken, and for better or for worse this is the direction we have chosen regardless of any and all unforeseen consequences of the future.

Maybe technology will end up being our downfall because it seems we embrace it before fully understanding all the repercussions.


This is my thoughts exactly. I have this theory that in 4.5 billion years we've destroyed ourselves and built ourselves back up several times over. That the "fire in the sky" of ancient texts was the last great war to end civilization.

Also off topic I must say I like this avatar better than you other one

Raist


Thank you.



reply posted on 9-10-2009 @ 02:39 AM by StevenDye
reply to post by Raist


Aye, rape is an extremely difficult option. (one of the many places I argued with my friend) She said that the mental pain it could cause would be terrible and unfair.

Though I countered with, many women become terribly depressed AFTER depression.

AND

This world isn't a fair one, I wish it was but it isn't. Every day around the world innocent people are put into prison, every day soldiers are sent into places that could kill them, every day people have their lives taken away from them (i.e. eviction not murder). Does none of that cause mental pain? Of course it does, but it's accepted and continued... so I fail to see the significance of taking a life to save mental pain in a world where we force it on others routinely.

Now of course, if the mother is driven to depression and the brink of suicide, abortion becomes a viable option again sadly, because then we run the risk of losing two lives and need to take the lesser of two evils.



I saw someone mention the age of consent...I mus say I'm tired and didn't read it, it just stuck in my mind.

In the UK the age of consent is 16. NOW, we hit two problems, many 16 year olds are not mature enough for a family but many are. Many 14 year olds are mature enough for a family, but more arn't. It isn't a black and white area as the law tries to make it. However, beyond being mature enough for a family we hit a more important issue...

A 16 year old girl may not be mature enough to have a child, but you can bet by 12 she was ready for and wanting sex. And by natures standards, she is likely ready for it and her hormones are telling her to have it. Now we hit the extremely difficult question of do we keep it illegal and tll her to deny what is natural. Do we make it legal and tell her to do what is natural. Or do we make it legal with strings attatched so she can do what is natural without the risk of becoming pregnant...i.e. sex is legal at a certain age, but only legal without contraception at another.

I am not a paedophile, and I do not condone them. however I am a 17 year old guy who gets hit on by plenty of 12 and 13 year olds. They know exactly what they want just as I did at their age.

[edit on 9-10-2009 by StevenDye]


reply posted on 9-10-2009 @ 10:48 AM by orangetom1999
Wow...some of you are really out there on Abortion. You are looking at it from a personal stance. While I can understand this I don't necessarily agree with the stance pro or against both.

I say this because over time I began to notice another trend in issues like this and it is not one taught or advertised by those behind the scenes pulling the strings on an issue like this one..abortion.

You folks...all of you tend to look at the personal side or your feelings but are somehow unable to step back and see a parasite taking advantage of you and your sentiments ..for votes and power.

Totally missed and obviously unrecognized by you...almost all of you.
Amazing to me how good a con job someone has pulled over most of you.

Many years ago..the body politic began to look for a way to take advantage of demographics for the purpose of getting and controlling votes. This became particularly true in high electoral vote states. They quickly realized that in states with high populations...at least half or better of the registered voters were women. Strategically and tactically they quickly realized that they needed an issue which would guarantee the votes of women....not men. This issue in dealing with women came down to emotions...thus meaning sex and sexuality. An issue with which women would immediately and instinctively flock to and recognize. Preferably without thinking..but instead emoting. The issue chosen here was abortion.

With an abortion issue...a body politic could now almost guarantee the votes of at least half the electorate and particularly in high electoral vote states.

However...the body politic also knew that this issue could not be put to the electorate to get passed into law. It had to be done through the courts and thus made into law. Which is exactly what happened.
This is why it is so important as to who or whom is put on the Supreme Courts and appellate courts. Because they can make issues into law for political purposes and bypass the will of the public. The Supreme Court is the avenue by which the body politic can default through certain issues with the effect of law for power and votes.

What most of you miss is the political angle while sitting back like dummies and debating issues which are to the body politic..placebo issues. They have the rest of us urinating into the wind while they control votes and power and on the public purse.
We are paying for and financing their elections through abortions.
No one seems want to speak up about this other avenue while debating the emotional issues of abortion.

The body politic does not care about the emotional, moral issues of this topic as long as they can use or misuse it to get and maintain votes.

For those of you who do not understand what has happened here....the abortion issue marks the beginning of what was to become the "Victim Dictum" so often used and misused by politicians and the body politic to gain and get power over the public and at public expense....all for votes.
The "Victim Dictum" also marks the begining of the parallel dogma used as a control mechanism on a unknowledgable and unwary public ..."Guilt Politics."

The other issues which have become emotional and defaulted through like abortion....Victims and Guilt.....are racism, homosexual issues, and soon also to be joining them will be illegal aliens. All for power and votes as soon as the control mechanisms can be suitably refined.
Once you begin to understand this Victim/Guilt template and see it for what it is in political terms...you begin to realize that the same bunch are behind the scenes controlling all these groups for power and votes. They are one and the same and mostly unseen by an overly emotional public.
Drama Queens. They have turned you into Drama Queens in order to control you for votes and power.

All of these issues to become political and on the public purse. Just like abortion..they are all emotional issues and thereby easily defaulted through by an ignorant and unthinking public. You have been preconditioned by a public education/television movie education template to be thusly emotional and a puppet on a string which the body politic controls.

Many of you need to step out of your emotional blinders and take a look around you to see the real parasite here taking advantage of you without you even noticing it. The body politic.

Is this not how a good parasite works ...attaching itself to its host without the host being aware of its presence until it is to late?? Even unto death. This is a double and triple whammy here on the backs of the public....think it through carefully...very carefully.

The proof of what I am saying is that when you go back and read carefully the history of this abortion issue...abortion became quickly the very "litmus test " for any office across this land. The issue quickly became, not were you qualified to serve or for this office, but what was your stance on abortion. This was true even if you were running for dog catcher. Amazing...yet almost no one caught the manner in which the public was being scammed here by the body politic. You are so obviously still being scammed.

Abortion is a rigged issue and most of you are so obviously unaware of it.

This is an issue for which the body politic can hide behind it and never be seen while you ..the public are chasing your tails on phony issues in which this same body politic cares nothing. For they are not seen here.

So many of you need to wise up here because the very platform for this kind of political parasite is being expanded by the "Victim Dictum" dogma into other arenas for votes and control....over you ...the public. They are counting on your ignorance in this to get away with and maintain power over you.

I am not for abortion for these very reasons...and particularly because it has become an issue on the public purse. The public purse alone should be sufficient to tell you it is for the purpose of getting votes, power and control.

I am not interested in financing such a scam on the public.
Abortion is just another issue by which the very souls of the public are bought, sold, and bartered for political lucre.

There are more such issues coming quickly now with the same emotional baggage and for the same reasons...perpetual re election and power.
Learn to follow the emotional "Victim Dictum" trail on issues and then look to see if it is going to be carried out on the public purse...this is a prime telltale indicator that you are being scammed.

Death penalty follows the same template....though it does not draw the votes as does abortion.
On a personal level I am for it though the system obviously needs refinement. Once again here the politicians dont really care anything about it ..except that a mistake can hurt their re elections. This should be obvious to most of you.

Same with euthanasia. Politicians dont want to touch this issue for the same reason. They, like the death penalty, have not figured out how to stack this one in their favor.

Personally..if someone really wants to die...you are not going to stop them.

Nonetheless..some of you need to take a serious re look at the abortion issue with this new informations and then expand this out to other issues currently taking place and projected into the future. To look at it from the political scam angle and wake up to what is the real nature of the body politic. They will sell your very souls if it allows them to keep and maintain power and control. And it is very very subversive and insidious in how they are doing it. And most of you are asleep at the wheel here.

Thanks,
Orangetom



[edit on 9-10-2009 by orangetom1999]


reply posted on 10-10-2009 @ 11:01 AM by TheRedneck
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Bump, bump...

Sorry to all for the delay, but this redneck has been busy. Now, I got a whole day off! So fasten your seatbelts.... to continue onto the other subjects addressed:

Death Penalty

I have heard both sides of the death penalty debate, and to be honest, I have changed my thinking on this over the course of my lifetime. I'm not going into what I used to believe, but rather how I see things now.

I support the death penalty, in a limited sense only. Death is indeed a deterrent for criminal activity, if only for the person who experiences it. Dead men commit no crimes. Now as to whether it is a deterrent in general society, that may or may not be the case. I maintain that it could be a general deterrent, however, and if it is not, it is due to the following reasons:
  • The death penalty takes far too long. Usually the cases where capital punishment occurs are so long past by the time the punishment is carried out, no one really remembers the crime (except possibly for family of someone killed). Thus, given the limited memory ca[pability of general society, there is no mental link established between action and punishment.

  • Capital punishment is typically carried out behind closed doors. A man walks into a room from a prison cell, and the next scene is orderlies wheeling out a body bag. The entire process is sterilized to prevent offense to sensitive eyes. Personally, I would like to see a CSPAN-like TV channel, devoted to broadcasting video of the actual execution on a pay-per-view basis. I would also like to make this service not only free to those poor deprived souls in prison, but mandatory to at least be in the room while it is broadcast. Would it be offensive to many of them? Probably, but which is worse: to be offended while in prison, or to be subjected later to the punishment itself? I believe such an experience would scare many inmates onto a more socially benevolent life-path, and thereby prevent not only more crime, but themselves from suffering the same fate.

    Not to mention, revenue from the pay-per-views.

  • There seems to be some media reluctance to fully cover both sides of a capital punishment. Typically, at least to my eyes, the media attention is focused less on the deeds done to warrant this punishment, and more on the protests being made (usually tearfully) to stop it. Perhaps this is the sign of the times, that the media are hesitant to broadcast a story that is both old and liable to stir emotions that could be uncomfortable to their viewers.

    This is in many ways understandable. the purpose of any company (including the media) is to make money, and little money is ever made by upsetting one's customers (except for government anyway). But a more balanced view of executions in the media, if it could be accomplished, would IMHO make for a more balanced public viewpoint of the pros and cons of such punishment.


Now, I just mentioned pros and cons. There are concerns I have about the death penalty, primarily the possibility that someone could be subjected to it innocently. Capital punishment is final, with no possibility of reprieve. the laws of physics, which always seem able to trump the laws of man, make such a reprieve impossible. therefore, any capital punishment case must be absolutely determined that there is no waty the convicted can be innocent. the burden of proof must be great on the prosecution, and there must be no stone left unturned in an attempt to either acquit or at least mitigate.

Unfortunately, this is typically at odds with the problems I mentioned above. Research takes time, and oftentimes witnesses are not quick to come forward. The tiresome barrage of appeal after appeal, some of these required by law at present to be heard, can be extremely tedious and cause the public eye to turn to other, more exciting stories. It is a sad fact that society prefers quick solutions over proper solutions.

The extreme nature of capital punishment is such that I also would not support its use except in cases where the perpetrator took another human life. I personally like the laws of Alabama in this respect. I learned the capital punishment laws through an experience as a member of a Grand jury a while back. Capital punishment here is an option under one of the following conditions:
  • The crime must consist of Murder - First Degree (pre-meditated), with a minimum of two counts, or

  • A conviction of Murder - First Degree, which occurred during the commission of a violent felony (rape, armed robbery, etc.).

  • Appeals are automatic in any case where the result is a sentence of capital punishment.


So, the bottom line: yes, I support capital punishment. It also scares me.

Call me confused (as usual).

TheRedneck

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


reply posted on 10-10-2009 @ 03:42 PM by missvicky
Well you certainly hit three of the hottest hot buttons debated today all in one little thread! A star for your coutage!

Two of these issues are personal choice, one is penalty carried out by laws.
I was alwyas against abortion until my daughter became pregnant at the age of 16. It was then I was hit square in the face with the question "Do I have the right to decide for her?" I had to say No. I am Pro Choice. No one has the right to impose a belief on someone else. For me it has less to do with the vialbilty of the fetus than empowering a woman to make a very difficult decision. Once a woman is pregnant, her life is forever changed. No going back. So we sat down with our daughter and gave her what I now call the three options: have the baby and keep it, have the baby and give it up for adoption, abortion. Any of those three are life changing and potential for mental and emotional anguish is huge. To take away the personal power to decide for herself is in itself is demeaning. And on a side note, if abortion is to be illegal, then the State is also assuming resposibilty to help the woman support and care for that child. I do not see Pro Life and Anti Welfare as being intellectually honest.
Euthanasia: I agree with personal choice. Period. And I also agree with severe cases to assist soemeone in passing.
Death Penalty: I do not agree with it because our criminal system is not yet a justice system. Until it is, do not allow the death penalty. I strongly recommend the movie "The Life of David Gale".

Thank you for the opportunity to spew!


reply posted on 11-10-2009 @ 07:40 AM by Raist
reply to post by intrepid


That is a good point. Though for those who are not the type that can be rehabilitated we could build a floating island type thing (like several air craft carriers built together) the island can be put in the upper Pacific. Those placed on the island could be give the materials to grow their own food and left without a means to leave. If they want to live they can fend for themselves.

Of course I have not figured out all of the details but surely this would cost us much less than the current system. Then on occasion we could do repairs so that it does not sink.


The words you say he spoke made me chuckle. He certainly sounds like a great gentleman to have known.


Raist


reply posted on 11-10-2009 @ 07:49 AM by Raist
reply to post by Annee


I never said you were trying to tell me what to believe. At least I do not see that in my post anywhere.

I also am not asking you to debate anything, though this is a discussion/debate board.


I was simply saying that there are many who believe that people who are born, whether they are adults or children are not viable humans.

So according to the idea you mention we should allow anyone to remove someone from the face of the planet as long as they believe that persons is not viable. Thus it seems a bit of a cop out.

Whether you believe that or not is up to you. But just stating that believing something is not viable is really a weak way to put it.

If you do not want to debate it fine, don’t. I was simply asking for opinions and discussions that could be challenged. If we do not want our ideas challenged we should not put them out for the public to know.

Raist


reply posted on 11-10-2009 @ 08:07 AM by Raist
reply to post by oneclickaway


I understand you view on abortion and sort of get what you mean with the belief of a soul or not.

As for the male not having a say though, I have to ask. What if the male agreed to pay for everything and take the child with no financial responsibility from the female after the child is born. What if the male even provided a fee (like rental space) for the nine months of carrying? I think the male should have some say seeing as how it takes two to get the job done. If the woman wants to keep it but the male does not the woman could agree to take all responsibility for finances for the kid’s life. Sort of a two way road there.

I take it you are not an Obama fan

I agree “they” do waste far more money than most people could ever spend. If they took that money and invested it in the homeless and saving people things would be far better here.

There have been a number of people who have came out of things but a coma and being a “vegetable” seems to be different things. In comas there is still an amount of brain activity where as the “vegetables” seem to lack really anything. Not saying that they cannot come out of it just that they are less likely to do so.

I am curious though how you felt about the Florida (I think that is where he was from) man who had his wife’s feeding tube removed? She basically starved to death. On this case I would say that I was pretty upset at how it turned out. If they were going to let her die it should have been in a more humane way as I would think that starving anybody would be unpleasant to say the least. I also am not sure I was all for him having it done when her family want to keep her alive. It was as if he was in possession of her and she was nothing but an object.

I am not sure what you are talking about though with the letting a deformed child be born so that the mother could see it and let it die. Is that in reference to what Blaine posted about? If not I would like to see some information on this. It sounds rather horrific.


Raist


reply posted on 11-10-2009 @ 08:16 AM by Raist
reply to post by A Fortiori


I need to look up the ancient abortion stuff to see exactly what cultures had them and what “rules” they had set in place for them. I would imagine though that more often than not people were more apt to have their children if for no other reason than to help provide for the family/village.

Personally I think they should have to view the ultrasound before going forward with an abortion. But that is simply my opinion. I agree that no one knows exactly how they will feel in nine months. Not to mention that many times the mother’s hormones will start to change her as well.

I have thought about the civilization starting over many times before. Though I am not really sure how far each progressed I do see that some societies have certainly destroyed themselves through their own doings. Mankind has always been mankind’s own worst enemy. I think for the most part people start losing their care for one another and start to care only for the self more often than not. Not saying it is bad to think of yourself, after all that is the whole point of self survival, but that they do not care if anyone survives sort of thing.

Raist



reply posted on 11-10-2009 @ 08:21 AM by Raist
reply to post by Annee


That was not the intention as you are trying to imply. It does seem to be one of the three that many are choosing to center on the most though. I am not sure why that should bother you though as it was a part of the thread to start with and this is a discussion/debate board.

I did not have a hidden message behind anything.
I actually centered the most on abortion and the death penalty because those two subjects I have the strongest thoughts on. As I mentioned in the OP I am not fully sure on the euthanasia thing but I have commented on those who have posted their ideas on it.


If the abortion issue is such a tough subject for you just avoid that part and discuss the rest.

Raist


reply posted on 11-10-2009 @ 08:30 AM by Raist
reply to post by OzWeatherman


I have a question though about euthanasia for you.

What about those who are extremely depressed? Should we have suicide machines for anyone to use? I ask this because one form of suffering is really not far different from another. Suffering in depression though is perceived differently from one to the next.

I recall many years ago there was a cartoon called Futurama (sp?) and they had suicide booths that looked like phone booths on the streets. In one episode someone used it thinking it was a telephone booth (in the cartoon it was sort of funny).

If we allow euthanasia for one group why could we not allow it for all? Some seem to get no help from therapy. Maybe they really do not want help or maybe no one knows how to reach them. If we do not give them death as they ask for it should we drug them to remove the pain as we would someone who suffers from physical pain? Again pain is pain and it is perceived differently for all.

This is one of those questionable things that I have thought about with euthanasia before. Sort of one of the reasons I am not really able to make a full decision on the subject I guess.

Raist


reply posted on 11-10-2009 @ 08:34 AM by Raist
reply to post by Donnie Darko


What about suffering mentally?

This is a question I have thought a lot about and I am asking this to others wondering on their thoughts about it.

Suffering one pain is not fully different from suffering another. I have been affected by those who have ended their own lives and believe that felt torment and suffering that they perceived that was not really there (in this case at least).

Anyway I am wondering should we offer a suicide machine for those who feel they are suffering from say depression, or any number of mental illnesses? Some of these people just seem to be unreachable. Could or should we end their suffering as well?

Raist


reply posted on 11-10-2009 @ 08:46 AM by Raist
reply to post by orangetom1999


Well I certainly understand how abortion and the other issues both you and I mentioned are very political. I do not think they originated that way though.

In my opinion they became such hot topic issues with the politicians is because of a few citizens and one or two politicians to start with. Then the other politicians realized that people felt strongly about them one way or the other and decided they could use that. Just like most use their beliefs religious wise to attract votes. I always doubt their true beliefs on religions as most are nothing more than career politicians who sold their soul years ago.

I think though the issues became “issues” because a few people went to their representatives to try and force others to follow their own beliefs. When really all of this might have been solved years ago if the people had just sat down with each other and discussed it much like we are doing now.

I have come to think over the years that politicians are the wolves in sheep’s clothing when it comes to people.

Raist


reply posted on 11-10-2009 @ 08:52 AM by Raist
reply to post by TheRedneck


I will come back to you and any posting after you later. I have been at work all night and I am getting pretty tiered. But I did want to let you know that I have not forgotten you.

I would have been back to the thread sooner but some other issues have come up and I was too busy and not in the frame of mind to be posting much.

Raist
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