First line of Bible translation error..

First line of Bible translation error..

www.rtl.nl

Dutch professor Ellen van Wolde has discoverd that the translation of the hebreew word "create" had to be seperate"..

this would mean that oure visions of the bible has to be renewed....

(visit the link for the full news article)

sorry that it is written in dutch... but I know lots of americans has dutch backgrounds... :-)
'God schiep hemel en aarde niet'
"God schiep de hemel en de aarde". Zo staat het in alle bijbelvertalingen. Maar de tekst klopt niet, zo heeft de Nederlandse hoogleraar Ellen van Wolde uitgezocht.
Volgens haar heeft God de hemel en de aarde niet zelf gemaakt. Ze waren er al en God heeft er alleen een scheiding in aangebracht, aldus Van Wolde. Ze leidt dat af uit een nieuwe vertaling van de Hebreeuwse bijbeltekst.

De nieuwe lezing druist in tegen alle vertalingen die er zijn. De mens is volgens Van Wolde overigens wél door God geschapen.







www.rtl.nl
(visit the link for the full news article)

Since we have the original texts, it's really kind of irrelevant if there were translation errors, Jews learn Hebrew, the old testament was in Hebrew, the New Testament in Greek; everyone already knows that the King James version of the bible was edited to keep the people unenlightened so they wouldn't rise up against the King...so, I don't know why this is news.

[edit on 8-10-2009 by yellowcard]

So op

Away from the Dutch thing,

The Author/Researcher is saying he has evidence that the original Torah (as copies of it still exist apparently word perfect) as written where the Jewish and everyone else has translated old Hebrew to mean

"in the Beginning he CREATED" etc.

when in fact the original word meant

"Separate"?

what does he say is the proof?

This is in fact every significant if he can prove it, and throws out the entire monotheistic abramistic religions, as it basically proves the mystery Gospels or Dead sea scrolls etc and all of Gnosticism.

He never created anything separate from himself He (he for want of a better word, a phrase better the universal mind) separated or rather WE separated ourselves or our perceptions of everything from one point of view to many, from the non dualistic to the dualistic.

Therefore everything is God, you are me etc...

this would back up the claims of many NDE and "merges with the light" and most mystical experiences, and profoundly supports the main path to enlightenment in the eastern religions of "emptiness" or the subjugation of the ego to merge with the one, to loose non duality.

As Jesus said in the Hidden Gospel of Thomas when asked by some disciples where they should find him or pray to him if away from him or, when he left the earth plane

If you want to find me, lift a stone
I am there,

Break a Piece of Wood
I am there,

Look in your brothers (neighbour) eye,
That is me, I am there

Please translate for me what his evidence is, and if I get the gist of what he is saying was mis translated from the ORIGINAL??? Torah???

Kind Regards

Elf

Edit for spelling

[edit on 8-10-2009 by MischeviousElf]

In metaphysical terms, "create" and "seperate" are the same thing. Infinity is ONE substance. In order to create something from ONE, something has to be seperated from it - which is the beginning of Duality.

[edit on 8-10-2009 by Skyfloating]

Are we to take this one lonely Dutch man's finding over the countless Hebrew scholars and Jews themselves? I think not. It would seem, especially with all the modern English translations of the Bible, someone would've caught it if בָּרָא (baw-raw) really meant separate instead of create.

By the way, here is what Strong's Hebrew Dictionary says about this word. It's Strong number is 1254.

A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

To aid in the discussion...

"God schiep de hemel en de aarde". Zo staat het in alle bijbelvertalingen. Maar de tekst klopt niet, zo heeft de Nederlandse hoogleraar Ellen van Wolde uitgezocht.

...

" God created the sky and the aarde". This way it stands in all bible translations. But the text is not correct, thus the Dutch professor Ellen van Wolde has selected.

and

Volgens haar heeft God de hemel en de aarde niet zelf gemaakt. Ze waren er al en God heeft er alleen een scheiding in aangebracht, aldus Van Wolde. Ze leidt dat af uit een nieuwe vertaling van de Hebreeuwse bijbeltekst.

...

According to her god has not made the sky and the ground himself. They were there already and god has only introduced one separation in, thus Van Wolde. She leads that from a new translation of the Jew bible text.

De nieuwe lezing druist in tegen alle vertalingen die er zijn. De mens is volgens Van Wolde overigens wél door God geschapen

...

The new reading druist against all translations which are there. People have been created according to Van Wolde moreover much by god.

Unfortunately it is a word for word translation and not a contextual one.

reply to post by Skyfloating


How true but how many times has this apparent juxtaposition in non "mystical" or such like understanding experiance been used for the exact opposite?

reply to post by Mirthful Me

According to her god has not made the sky and the ground himself. They were there already and god has only introduced one separation in, thus Van Wolde. She leads that from a new translation of the Jew bible text.

Seems to point to what I was trying to infer, maybe extrapolating my understanding out onto this OP...

The new reading druist against all translations which are there. People have been created according to Van Wolde moreover much by god.

Seems to confer with the status quo.

People created by an external thing/diety/force a dualistic function.


But thank you as I am more confused but understand more to.

The fact that the ground and sky 9aka also earth and air, were there already before "god" choose to experience them seperately leads to the universal mind and many ponints of veiw or systems of experiences of it.... based on whatever system you want Karma, sin, choice, i.e some parts of MY lol body are healthy now but some are not, are being eaten attacked by other parts, so the same for the people suffering etc extrapolated...?

Thank you... but really need a Dutch or holland resident with perfect english and hebrew to explain lol...


Elf

[edit on 8-10-2009 by MischeviousElf]

Double post please delete.
sorry

Elf

[edit on 8-10-2009 by MischeviousElf]

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
Thank you... but really need a Dutch or holland resident with perfect english and hebrew to explain lol...

[edit on 8-10-2009 by MischeviousElf]

For the Dutch-to-English part (not entirely perfect, maybe, but):

“God created heaven and earth”. That’s how it’s written in all bibletranslations. But this text isn’t correct, as the Dutch professor Ellen van Wolde found out.

According to her, God didn’t create heaven and earth himself. They already existed and God only created a separation in them, thus van Wolde. This is her conclusion from a new translation of the Hebrew bibletext.

This new way of reading violates all existing translations. Mankind, on the other hand, is created by God, according van Wolde.

It's a short article, doesn't say too much about her research, but I believe the conecpt of duality comes out more profound if you read it this way. Which makes sense.
How it affects people's believe depends on how (willing they are to) hold on to their interpretation of these words...




[edit on 8/10/09 by Movhisattva]

reply to post by Movhisattva


thank you

I find my ignorance of the written research and maybe TRUTH of what the researcher said is very much an indictation of the entire OP or concept to....

I stated

He

when infact the OP souce is a

She

So therefore my limited and separational and "labelling" "name" mistake ther shows the entire OP thrust maybe?

as most have heard on TV in a famous film

God is Black and she is a woman

Well and white, and male, but we have to label, seperate and dfine things to understand and such like, creating duality where in fact it does not exist.

Love to you and me and we all.

Elf

[edit on 8-10-2009 by MischeviousElf]

Hi Yellow Card--

Unfortunately (contrary to your claim !) we do NOT have the 'original texts' at all of any Hebrew 'sacred' scriptures, just very late copies of copies of copies of of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies etc. of oral material that morphed over time.

The post destruction Jews (i.e. after AD 70) did not start to count 'middle letters' in the proto-Masortetic texts they were copying until around AD 300.

Before that it was 'open season' in terms of copying by hand any text version in front of a scribe with no central control over the content until the middle ages (compare the unpointed (unvowelled) Hebrew 'underlay' Vorlage to the Greek LXX Septuaginta found amongst the fragments of the Dead Sea Scroll material.

And what has come down to us prior to AD 960 was copied BY HAND WITHOUT VOWELS (i.e. unpointed Hebrew consonants)--

A close examination of the Cave Fragments of the Torah and other Hebrew writings show that many versese were found to have been taken out of the later pointed (vowelled) Masoretic text of AD 960 from Leningrad (more than a 1000 years later than the Dead Sea Scroll fragments, found in caves 1 to 11 and sealed up in AD 68 during the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome, and when partly re-discovered in November 1946 (to as late as Jan 1957) these ancient textual hords were revealed clearly that the Dead Sea Scroll material formed an embarassing 'time capsule' for both Jews and Chrisitians in terms of their 'bible' texts--- since they revealed the actual mis-matched state of the confused copies of hand written texts of the Hebrews in the late 2nd Temple period up to AD 68 both in the actual texts themselves and in the books that were thought in those days to be 'sacred' (i.e. canonical), a different list of books than what is in the 'bible' today...

Small wonder that neither the Rebbes nor the Vatican nor the Protestant churches wanted to publish them for the prying eyes of their tax-free offering paying public to see and compare their 'sacred' and 'inviolate' text copies...!! )

The Qumran Dead Sea Scroll Caves also held copies of the so-called Samaritan Pentateuch (SamPent) of the Torah in copies that were even older reflecting an even earlier text type (from around c. BCE 420) and showed even MORE line by line and letter by letter differences between the texts.

So we are not dealing with a single text at all, but several CONTRADICTORY text families of the Torah and Psalms and Prophets that only became sorted down to the single ('authorised') 'protoMasoretic' version by the Rebbes after the Rabinnic Council of Javneh (=Jamnia) in 90CE under the Babylonian Hillel II's orders AFTER Rome groundd Jerusalem to powder.

All other copies of the Torah floating around in those days were destroyed/supressed by the Hillel backed Rebbes who imposed THEIR OWN TEXT TYPE on modern Rabinnic Judaeism even to this day (but they did not know about the time capsule copies in caves 1-11, otherwise they would have supressed them too !)

Still all those variant reflecting Greek versions of the Torah and prophets/psalms that had been floating all around Asia Minor and Egypt after Javneh survived for centuries in the Synagogues in the Diaspora away from all the Jerusalem destruction--so that glimpses of the textual confusion could be clearly seen and pondered by persons such as Origen who in in the late 3rd century AD (scratching his head no doubt ! ) tried to line up all the different Greek translations of the Hebrew scriptures which were being translated OUT OF different Hebrew originals in his Hexapla, fragments of which still survive to this day, in COLUMNS lid out side by side in TEN VOLUMES to show all the tiny differences in the text--

All this proves that the coyists of the Hebrew Scriptures before AD 70 were NOT copying the middle letters of a page of copy until much later when the text started to become 'settled'

We can see this from what survives of Origen's HEXAPLA, where a close verse by verse comparison of the Proto-Masoretic unpointed (unvowelled MT) Hebrew next is written next to to Aquila's LXX Greek in its own column and next to Theodotion's LXX Greek in its own column next to Symmmachus' LXX Greek, etc. all showing vast differences in the Greek translations -- clearly arising from a translation of DIFFERENT Hebrew consonantal texts, just as we moderns found in the embarassingly older Hebrew underlay copies (vorlagen) in the caves 1-11 at Qumran beginning again in 1946).

But back on topic: the heb. consonants B-R-A (prob pronounced 'bara') in the opening verses of Genesis comes from the 1st Creation Myth (Gen 1:1 to Gen 2:4a) and generally means 'to create from zero' as opposed to the other Hebrew word for 'form from pre-existent material' as we see in the Creation Myth #2 starting in Chapter 2:4b where ADAM is formed from mud.

This is just too stupid to entertain. The Torah is the best preserved ancient text in existance bar none. To claim that 3000yrs plus of Jewish scholarship is so completely wrong shows unbelievable arrogance on her part. My hebrew bible says create, so I suggest she invests in a proper copy.

Not only that but the Jesus confirms the traditional translation of create. I'm afraid she another in a long line loonies. And she won't be the last I don't suppose.

Hi Speakin’ Plain--

First off I cannot see how the dutch claim for B-R-A being 'to separate' is supported linguistically, but your claim that the ‘Babylonian’ Masoretic (MT) version of the Torah is the best preserved MS in existence ‘bar none’ is ALSO untenable – that is, if you take the 2nd Temple period hand written text copies that have been fairly recently discovered into account. in terms of its earliest period of hand copying (BCE 480 to BCE 150) and earlier ‘versions’ from antiquity have surfaced, especially at Qumran (since say, 1946 and later).

Closely comparing the unpointed Hebrew Vorlage to the LXX (dated c. BCE 380)--which was found amongst the DSS fragments-- with the SamPent (dated around BCE 420) with the 1500 year later (960CE) pointed Masoretic text with all its curious variants was a shock to a lot of Rebes. Line up the copies for yourself…you might be in for something of a shock too … unless you are not conversant in Paleo Hebrew and Greek, then the exercise in your case would be pointless.

You may or may not have seen excerpts from Origen’s Hexapla: Origen spent DECADES very carefully poring over the oldest MSS of the Greek versions of the Torah and the prophets and the writings he could lay his hands on---and was TOTALLY at a loss at times as to what an ‘original’ unpointed Hebrew text may have looked like at an earlier stage in its development—which by the way was a LONG hand copying development period. He opened a very large Can ‘o Worms which the common masses were never told about—even to this day.

Do you have ANY idea how FLUID the text of the Torah was BEFORE Javneh in 90 CE? Have you seen any Dead Sea Scroll material (I’m speaking of the fragments found in caves 1-11, sealed up in AD 68, not the later ones found outside the caves during the Bar Kokhba revolt post Javneh dating from AD 136) close up and personal?

There was ‘no counting of middle letters’ when copying the text of the Torah until the early middle ages to judge by the fluidity in the Dead Sea Scroll Material we can hold in our hands today for comparison…and the farther you go back in time the MORE FLUID the text becomes…
After AD 300 the proto-Masoretic unpointed text became settled, and by the time the Masoretes ADDED the Vowels (pointing) to the proto-Masoretic Babylonian Text by AD 960 the text was settled comparatively firmly.

My advice to you would be to avoid generalizing about things without backing it up (which in this case, the evidence will point you in the OTHER direction)—it only obscures the truth of the actual textual situation at present…and any serious scholar (Rabinnic or Catholic or Protestant or even an athiest Textual Scholar) who has any first hand experience with these texts (and is not lying to his parishioners, as some do…to keep their offering plates filled every week) will tell you the same thing.

Originally posted by speakplain
This is just too stupid to entertain. The Torah is the best preserved ancient text in existance bar none. To claim that 3000yrs plus of Jewish scholarship is so completely wrong shows unbelievable arrogance on her part. My hebrew bible says create, so I suggest she invests in a proper copy.

Not only that but the Jesus confirms the traditional translation of create. I'm afraid she another in a long line loonies. And she won't be the last I don't suppose.

The Authorized King James Version is an English translation of the Christian Bible begun in 1604 and completed in 1611
en.wikipedia.org...

The Statenvertaling (Dutch for State Bible) was completed in 1635 and authorized by the States-General in 1637
en.wikipedia.org...

This translation was made in Leiden.
Leiden is a famous New World Order city.

Leiden: Obama and Bush
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Leiden: Bilderberg
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
So op

Away from the Dutch thing,

The Author/Researcher is saying he has evidence that the original Torah (as copies of it still exist apparently word perfect) as written where the Jewish and everyone else has translated old Hebrew to mean

"in the Beginning he CREATED" etc.

when in fact the original word meant

"Separate"?

what does he say is the proof?

This is in fact every significant if he can prove it, and throws out the entire monotheistic abramistic religions, as it basically proves the mystery Gospels or Dead sea scrolls etc and all of Gnosticism.

He never created anything separate from himself He (he for want of a better word, a phrase better the universal mind) separated or rather WE separated ourselves or our perceptions of everything from one point of view to many, from the non dualistic to the dualistic.

Therefore everything is God, you are me etc...

this would back up the claims of many NDE and "merges with the light" and most mystical experiences, and profoundly supports the main path to enlightenment in the eastern religions of "emptiness" or the subjugation of the ego to merge with the one, to loose non duality.

As Jesus said in the Hidden Gospel of Thomas when asked by some disciples where they should find him or pray to him if away from him or, when he left the earth plane

If you want to find me, lift a stone
I am there,

Break a Piece of Wood
I am there,

Look in your brothers (neighbour) eye,
That is me, I am there

Please translate for me what his evidence is, and if I get the gist of what he is saying was mis translated from the ORIGINAL??? Torah???

Kind Regards

Elf

Edit for spelling

[edit on 8-10-2009 by MischeviousElf]

DING! A cookie for you, everything is God. Dualism is what separates us from the Eternal. Matter of fact the tree should've been called the tree of dualism and self righteous behavior.

Starting back from the TORAH the translation is easier.

www.biblewheel.com...

Bere#h bara Elohim ...
The word bara (value 203) is translated to Created.

CREATED = ברא = bara

Be aware that Above Top Secret (ATS) is modifying the first word of the Bible.
ATS does not like the translation for the word: In the beginning.
But this can easily be bypassed by selecting the following link:
www.biblewheel.com...


[edit on 10-10-2009 by hawk123]

Here is a link to that news in a english translation that i posted in an other thread.

Link to translation


Here is the thread What is The Book of Genesis Really Describing?

Originally posted by jaamaan
Here is a link to that news in a english translation that i posted in an other thread.

Link to translation


Here is the thread What is The Book of Genesis Really Describing?

Text from the first link:
Ellen Van Wolde concludes the Hebrew word 'bara' does not mean 'create' but 'spacial separation'

I do not understand her conclusion, because the translation is
CREATED = ברא = bara (Value = 203)






[edit on 10-10-2009 by hawk123]

The same word bara is used in Genesis chapter 1 verse 27.

CREATED = ברא = bara (Value = 203)

Elohim Bara Adam = God Created Man

Ellen Van Wolde should then also conclude that Genesis chapter 1 vers 27 is wrong.
Why she got promoted?


[edit on 10-10-2009 by hawk123]