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Originally posted by wayno
I read several pages of the website. Unfortunately I can't agree that it is unbiased. It is in fact a very Christian perspective on things. The author, an Arab himself, seems to have a vendetta against Islam.
I do acknowledge that this website appears to have a Christian bias. Unfortunately, it is virtually impossible to find a neutral, completely unbiased website when discussing these issues. This website is in my opinion honest, reasonable and concise - which is a rarity when dealing with controversial topics.
I strongly believe that Muslims, Christians and Jews are all inheritors of the same archaic, barbarian belief system that promotes and encourages violence towards neighbours and anyone outside of their group.
I strongly agree with you on this. All of these religions have archaic, barbaric and violent elements.
Originally posted by PSUSA
Muslims? Don't know much about them, other than they are being slaughtered. Ironically, we are murdering them because they won't convert, the very same thing "chrsitians" accuse them of wanting to do to us.
[edit on 8-10-2009 by PSUSA]
The sad reality is that most of the Muslims being killed around the world are being done so by other Muslims (Sunni vs. Shi'a conflict).
The illegal invasion of Iraq was not carried out because the Iraqi population would not convert to Christianity. It appears to have been done for material gain and power. (And some would argue to create an intense Western vs. Islam war.)
The problem with radical Islam is that the motivation for Holy war is almost always based off of religious ideology where the fight to protect and preserve Islam is considered more important than peace and stability.
reply to post by PSUSA
I'd like to see some numbers on that. On the face of it, I disagree.
This says the death toll was 655,000 and that was back in 2006. The pentagram won't even keep track of the numbers. They don't count, I guess.
Agreed.
But they used "christian" terms to sell the Iraq invasion to the drooling idiots, and they couldn't have done it without the "churches" support. Smirk even called it a crusade. I should have been more clear on this. I don't believe for one nanosecond that Chimp is a christian. Vermin like him simply use religion as a tool in their toolbox to be used when needed.
I remember what it was like, trying to reason with "christians" about this as it was happening. I got called every name in the book. And they meant it.
Good point. And if you substitute the word "churchianity" for Islam, it would still be accurate.
Religion is a curse. When we were kids, we'd tell other kids "my dad can beat up your dad!". They grew up (!) and now it's "my god can beat up your god!"
Firstly, those figures are very depressing, but they do not separate attacks carried out by Western militants and those carried out by insurgents. The number of civilians harmed/killed due to insurgency attacks is likely much higher than any intended or accidental attack carried out by Western forces.
Originally posted by PSUSA
Firstly, those figures are very depressing, but they do not separate attacks carried out by Western militants and those carried out by insurgents. The number of civilians harmed/killed due to insurgency attacks is likely much higher than any intended or accidental attack carried out by Western forces.
I would love to know what the real numbers are. But they either dont bother counting them, or they won't release those numbers.
Nevertheless, I still hold the US responsible, no matter who pulls the trigger or activates the detonator. If we hadn't invaded, those people would still be alive. It was a war of choice. None of the justifications held water. Every time a excuse was debunked, they'd give another excuse. Rinse and repeat.
The US acted worse than Saddam.
So, is it surprising that radical islam has found fertile ground? We're turning them into "radicals" in the same way our government is turning many of us into radicals. You can only kick a man in the balls so many times before he starts to fight back.
Originally posted by Axial Leader
I am completely confused by the OP.
Are you saying that this is what Islam believes, and what they believe is a myth? Or are you saying that it is a myth that this is what Islam believes
For example, are you saying it is a myth that Islam reveres Jesus Christ (and they actually don't believe in Jesus)? Or are you saying that Jesus Christ is a myth (and anyone who believes in Jesus is misguided?)
Having read the entire English version of the Quran in 2002 (a very daunting task!) I can tell you that the book deals quite a bit with Jesus, and that is a central component of the writings. Also, the Quran discusses Abraham, Moses and Noah, as well as other Biblical figures. The Quran elaborate on these figures, but doesn't substantially change their character.
Additionally, I can tell you that the Quran heavily promotes tolerance, compromise on many issues, patience, mercy, and understanding of different belief systems. There are a few exceptions (which are often highlighted) but the majority of the Quran deals with respecting others, forgiveness, compassion.
Additionally, It is obvious that Allah is exactly the same as Jehovah. It is the same deity, with similar characteristics and objectives for humanity. The word "Allah" is derived from the Arabic word for "The All" (according to footnotes in my copy of the Quran.)
Additionally, although the Quran does not put women on the same level as men, the treatment of women is about on the same level as the Old Testament, which is about the same level as USA society during the mid-20th century.
I think the point of the OP is that Islamists misrepresent their religion to non-Muslims, that the Islamic religion actually doesn’t worship the same God as Christians and Jews, and doesn't consider Jesus Christ to be a holy and Godlike figure, and does not advocate peace, and advocates mistreatment of women. All these are incorrect statements, according to my personal direct readings.
I haven't studied Islam beyond reading the Quran, so this is my particular opinion taken only from what is said in the Quran and nothing else.
Frankly, I think a lot of Islam consists of a belief in mythology, but that is true with all religions, which is something I accept and am willing to dignify.
If the point of the OP is that Islam is heavily based on mythology, I will agree to that. However, if the point of the OP is that Islam contradicts Judaism and Christianity, I would disagree based upon what I have personally read, because it has become clear to me that Islam is just an extension (not a contradiction) to Christianity, much the same way Christianity extends Judaism.
There is propaganda on both sides, friend.
Sunni and Shia factions have been killing those of opposing sects for decades. Islamic extremism has been a danger since at least 1948 (creation of Israel).
Originally posted by PSUSA
This is true. My immediate reaction is to totally disbelieve anything our leaders say and judge them by their fruits. In this instance I believe the muslims hold the moral high ground when compared to the US and especially our string-puller "israel".
[...]
Again, true. This is why I consider religion to be a curse. No matter what the faith is, they just can't leave other people alone, they try and beat them into submitting.
[..]
I don't know much about Islam, but "christians" are told to preach the gospel to everyone. That is all well and good, if they knew what the gospel is. They generally don't. If they did know, there would be no problem.
And before "israel" was created, arabs were allies.
Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Islam does revere Jesus to an extent. They recognise him as a prophet/messenger of God, but not as the Messiah or Redeemer of Mankind. This is a big difference between Christianity and Islam. Apologists often say "yes we believe Jesus is the Al-Mahdi (Messiah in Islamic mythology)" but this is not true. Islam teaches that Muhammad is the final prophet and the one most revered by God. In addition, Islam does not acknowledge the crucifixion of Jesus, and does not believe that he died for the sins of man.
Originally posted by Dark Ghost
This is another misconception and you will see it covered in the website I quoted. The teachings of Jesus and Muhammad (as documented in history) are rather different. Muhammad is very much more militarily offensive, less merciful and much more sexually active. (Not assuming these are all bad considering the contexts, but they do illustrate information about the individual and their ideals).
Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last prophet and messenger of God. Muslims also believe that God will grant total and comprehensive victory to Islam over other religions. The holy Qur’ãn talks about this promise in three different verses. It says:
He (Allãh) is the one who sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with the guidance and the religion of truth so that He may grant victory to it over every religion.
(The Qur’ãn 9:33; 48:28; 61:9)
"According to the unanimously accepted saying of the Prophet Muhammad, God will bring about a saviour before the end of time to establish the global domination of Islam over all religions. In other words, the saviour will establish the Kingdom of God on this earth. In Islamic traditions, that saviour is known by the name of "al-Mahdi".
The establishment of God’s Kingdom on earth at the hand of the righteous people has been clearly mentioned in the holy Qur’ãn. God says:
We would like to bestow a favour upon those who have been oppressed in the earth and make them leaders and make them inheritors (of the world)." (The Qur’ãn 28:5)
The belief in al-Mahdi —as the embodiment of the messiah or the saviour who will appear at the end of time— is a belief in the fulfilment of God’s promise. It is a belief common to all Muslims based on the unanimously accepted sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.).
Ibn Khaldun, the 14th century historian famous for his pioneering work in philosophy of history, writes in his Muqaddima:
"It has been (accepted) by all the Muslims in every epoch, that at the end of time a man from the family (of the Prophet) will, without fail, make his appearance, one who will strengthen Islam and make justice triumph. Muslims will follow him, and he will gain domination over the Muslim realm. He will be called the Mahdi."
"In trying to identify the person who will be the Mahdi and the Saviour, the only source we have is the Prophet of Islam. According to his sayings, the basic characteristics of Mahdi are as follows:
1. He will be an Arab, from the tribe of Banû Hãshim.
2. He will be from the descendants of the Prophet Muhammad
through his daughter Fatima.
3. He will be the descendant of Husayn, son of Fatima and ‘Ali.
4. He will appear in Mecca.
5. Finally, one of the most interesting things that we find in the sayings of the Prophet is that Imam al-Mahdi will be helped by Prophet Jesus.
We are told that Jesus will descend to the earth soon after the appearance of the Mahdi; he will join the Mahdi in establishing the Kingdom of God on earth; and he will pray behind Imam al-Mahdi. The true Christians will follow Jesus in accepting Imam al-Mahdi as the leader at the time and become Muslims."
"In the Qur’ãn, God has selected Abraham and his descendants and preferred them over the others. Abraham’s children were from his two sons: Ishmael and Isaac. From the line of Isaac, we have all the great prophets of the Israelites (Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, Solomon and, finally, Jesus). From the line of Ishmael, we the Prophet of Islam and the Imams from his family, the last being Imam Muhammad al-Mahdi.
God has, by His decree, preserved the last representatives from both lines of Abraham for the establishment of His Kingdom. At the end of time, He will bring Imam al-Mahdi and Prophet Jesus together for the fulfilment of His plan.
This is the optimistic outlook that we have towards human history; and incidentally it also shows how closely the destiny of the Muslims and the Christians is linked together."
Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Hi babloyi, thank you for your input. It seems there is debate within Islam on this topic of a Messianic figure. After much reading, I am of the opinion that there is confusion on Jesus, Muhammad and a redeemer figure within Islamic eschatology.
This is the transcript of the talk given on "Islam in Focus" TV program on December 6, 1997. Sayyid Rizvi elaborates on the concept of a Messiah figure in Islam. Please read through this transcript and tell me if you find anything he says alarming in regard to the concept of Messiah in Islam. I do realise he does not speak for all Muslims, but he does seem to share views that tie in with that of many Muslims around the world.
Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last prophet and messenger of God. Muslims also believe that God will grant total and comprehensive victory to Islam over other religions. The holy Qur’ãn talks about this promise in three different verses. It says:
He (Allãh) is the one who sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with the guidance and the religion of truth so that He may grant victory to it over every religion.
(The Qur’ãn 9:33; 48:28; 61:9)
We would like to bestow a favour upon those who have been oppressed in the earth and make them leaders and make them inheritors (of the world)." (The Qur’ãn 28:5)
Surah 28 Verse 03 (Yusuf Ali Translation)
We rehearse to thee some of the story of Moses and Pharaoh in Truth, for people who believe.
Truly Pharaoh elated himself in the land and broke up its people into sections, depressing a small group among them: their sons he slew, but he kept alive their females: for he was indeed a maker of mischief.
And We wished to be Gracious to those who were being depressed in the land, to make them leaders (in Faith) and make them heirs,
To establish a firm place for them in the land, and to show Pharaoh, Haman, and their hosts, at their hands, the very things against which they were taking precautions.
Originally posted by babloyi
There is certainly belief in an end-times figure known as "Al-Mahdi", but I've never heard of Jesus being called the Mahdi. About the transcript, I certainly find it disturbing that they'd be using the term "Messiah" for anyone other than Jesus. This is definitely NOT supported by Islamic scripture. While I would have no problem in accepting the idea of this "Mahdi" figure, it is hardly a universally accepted (within Muslims) concept.
This again I disagree with, as it seems a distortion of the the verses quoted. Yusuf Ali translates it as "to proclaim it over". The actual word used here لِيُظْهِرَهُ "liyuthhirahu" can be translated as "to manifest" or to "make it apparent/visible". So it is definitely not talking about it in a military sense. In fact, if you ask me, the Quran supports the idea that there will never be only 1 worldwide group or 1 religion, etc.
This again being a misuse of the quote. If you read the actual quote in the Quran, it is talking about the Phaoroh's oppression of Moses's people.
If you'll excuse me for posting the whole quote:
Surah 28 Verse 03 (Yusuf Ali Translation)
We rehearse to thee some of the story of Moses and Pharaoh in Truth, for people who believe.
Truly Pharaoh elated himself in the land and broke up its people into sections, depressing a small group among them: their sons he slew, but he kept alive their females: for he was indeed a maker of mischief.
And We wished to be Gracious to those who were being depressed in the land, to make them leaders (in Faith) and make them heirs,
To establish a firm place for them in the land, and to show Pharaoh, Haman, and their hosts, at their hands, the very things against which they were taking precautions.
Now obviously, as most muslims believe, if Jesus returns, it is assumed (by muslims) that he will preach the "truth" (a return to the basics of Islam). That I do not disagree with.