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Is compromise possible between militant atheists and religious believers?

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posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 10:47 AM
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reply to post by John Matrix
 



Also: I see nothing wrong with saying God is behind (1)what we cannot explain or (2) what we don't no for certain. Taking this position does not stop the process of discovery and learning.


It most certainly does when such a belief cause one to fully accept some of the fundamentals of evolutionary theory and processes, but reject the naturalistic claim of those processes in it's entirety.

Or how about the previous held religious belief that not only was man the greatest of all creation, but we were at the center of said creation. This form of belief led to Galileo's death, something that took the church four-hundred years to apologize for. For the blatant sense of arrogance and wishful thinking that they thought they were right, because God deemed it so.

What about the religious pressure to not conduct stem cell research? A wondrous discovery that cal lead to longer and healthier lives well into ripe old age. Discoveries that would have been made to eradicate cancers and diseases. Religion has continuously applied pressure against scientific knowledge throughout history, and it continues to do so this very day.




posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 10:48 AM
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A comprimise is very achievable.....just don't talk about it if you get that riled up. Very, very simple.

I don't discuss my religious viewpoints with people who i think are going to raise a big stink. Challenge them? Sure....but no need to fight.

Seems like a simple solution that puts personal responsibility first.



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 10:53 AM
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reply to post by sirnex
 


When Michael the archangel was contending with Satan during a

dispute he did not make any reviling accusation against Satan....

such as the type of attacks and insults you make against anyone that

demonstrates more common sense than you do.

What Michael said to Satan is : "The Lord rebuke you Satan!'' Jude 1.9

One more childish outburst and you go back on my ignore list as the only

one to earn that honor.


[edit on 9/10/09 by John Matrix]



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 11:11 AM
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reply to post by John Matrix
 


So that is how your going to skirt around arguing the actual issue? By placing me on ignore? How would that solve anything, honestly.

Look, you tried to paint a negative picture of me here on this thread in hopes that no one here has seen the other thread in where these or similar arguments have already been discussed by you and I. You are the one acting as if it never happened and as if your in shock and awe that I could even say such things *which have already been said*.

You want to play games and put me on ignore, go for. Play your games, I'll play to, but you won't like it.

[EDIT TO ADD]

BTW, using disused terminology to argue against a theory or using assumptions in attempt to prove further assumptions is not what one would call common sense. Good for you for thinking that! You have fun now, I've got some work to do if we're playing games. Welcome to hell.

[edit on 9-10-2009 by sirnex]



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by John Matrix
 


So that is how your going to skirt around arguing the actual issue? By placing me on ignore? How would that solve anything, honestly.

Look, you tried to paint a negative picture of me here on this thread in hopes that no one here has seen the other thread in where these or similar arguments have already been discussed by you and I. You are the one acting as if it never happened and as if your in shock and awe that I could even say such things *which have already been said*.

You want to play games and put me on ignore, go for. Play your games, I'll play to, but you won't like it.

[EDIT TO ADD]

BTW, using disused terminology to argue against a theory or using assumptions in attempt to prove further assumptions is not what one would call common sense. Good for you for thinking that! You have fun now, I've got some work to do if we're playing games. Welcome to hell.


I am not skirting the issues. I asked you to prove your false accusations

and you came back with another personal attack....typical of atheists who

lack moral and ethical foundations, or adjust them as it suits them.

I did not try to paint a negative picture of you. You did an excellent job on

your own.

I'll pass on your "Welcome to Hell" doormat thank you. Enjoy your stay

there without me.



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 11:37 AM
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reply to post by John Matrix
 


Your already bound for hell for following a false prophet, something the original God warns about and the reason the Jews never accepted Christ as the messiah, because he wasn't. You don't even follow your God's commands and laws, so stuff it. Not a single one of you religious folks do anymore.

I already have proven whatever it was I've set out to prove. I proved you were arguing with hypocritical contradictions, to the point where I even quoted you on what they were. You damn well know this, it's in another thread and if you'd like *in case you've forgotten* I will bring them to light in this thread.

You keep arguing with the assumption that your God is real and using other assumptions in attempt to prove it, I have again already show this to be the case in this very thread as well with that video you posted. Yet, you would rather continue to assume that the laws of this universe apply to beyond the creation of this universe without proving that to be the case. You know why? Because you can't and instead of listening to reason and common sense you would rather throw me on ignore because you fail at logic, reasoning and common sense.

You continue to think there is this air of negativity and evilness being seen of me, from the amount of replies in private I have received you would be shocked to find out what people think of you in comparison to myself. Yes, I am damn well blunt in what I have to say. You argue the wrong way I will let you know where your wrong and why your wrong. You and I have already gone over this so stop tooling around pretending this is all flipping new to you because I will not tolerate you pretending and playing games much longer.



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 11:47 AM
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Like every other ATS religion thread, it's like beating a dead horse, the problem comes down to PEOPLE who have to be respective of others beliefs regardless of what they are, up until they infringe on your way of life or well being. Also the responsibility of knowing other religions even though you don't share that truth.

If everybody had this mentality people would get along better.

A good example I use is Christianity . You can't have sexual relations before marriage, so that leads to it being a subject that's looked upon negatively and not talked about. In turn we don't teach young adults about it much or properly for that matter and it leads to a whole bunch of problems.

People who believe that to be true have now molded society so that it's woven in and the ones who don't believe it are stuck fighting for what they think is right. How is that fair?

Don't slander those who do and don't insist others are missing out. Period. Everyone should be happy.



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 12:46 PM
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Whoa!

No more beating the dead horse guys. For i have just had a religious experience.

God just came to me in a dream, telling me that he is displeased with the sinners involved in all current false religions of the world... He has demanded that me and my bretheren strike them down where ever we find them. Particularly christians.

Iv got no evidence of this for you, youll just have to take my word on it. But dont worry. Il write a book that will be devinely inspired. Hopefully itl become a best seller worldwide.



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 12:49 PM
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reply to post by alpha-erectus
 




Somebody hearing the voice of God 1000+ years ago means it's set in stone and that''s what we believe but hear the voice of God in 2009 and your given pills and labeled as a loony. Funny how it works, eh?



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 02:52 PM
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Originally posted by alpha-erectus
Whoa!

No more beating the dead horse guys. For i have just had a religious experience.

God just came to me in a dream, telling me that he is displeased with the sinners involved in all current false religions of the world... He has demanded that me and my brethren strike them down where ever we find them. Particularly Christians.

Iv got no evidence of this for you, youll just have to take my word on it. But dont worry. Il write a book that will be devinely inspired. Hopefully itl become a best seller worldwide.


Sounds exactly like the way Hitler thought, spoke, and what he did.


Hitler is the scurge of humanity......his name is synonymous with the Devil.


You might think you are being funny, but what you just said is enough to

put you on the radar screen of the authorities.


Look....If you knew anything about mainstream Christian doctrine you

would know that any visions or dreams must square up with the teachings

in scripture because the Bible is God's Revelation to us until Christ Himself

appears again. There are no modern day prophets being given new

revelations that extend beyond what is taught in scripture.

A true believer has the complete revelation of God in scripture, so

the believer seeks is to understand the Bible. The believer seeks to

experience Truth, Justice, Love, transformation, and enlightenment.

When one claims to be hearing voices they are directed to seek help.

The conduct and hatred you just spewed comes straight from the pit of

H.E. double toothpicks.


Some people would take it as a serious threat. It's like joking about a

bomb in an airport....a very calous, ignorant, and stupid thing to do.


[edit on 9/10/09 by John Matrix]



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 04:46 PM
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reply to post by John Matrix
 



Sounds exactly like the way Hitler thought, spoke, and what he did.


He was being sarcastic and poking fun at how in biblical times people who heard voices in their head were considered prophets of god compared to how now a days we put them in cute little white jackets.


Hitler is the scurge of humanity......his name is synonymous with the Devil.


Which is a crying shame that he was religious and claimed to be doing the work of God. This is why us atheists try and remove ourselves as far away from the insane ramblings of your ilk.


You might think you are being funny, but what you just said is enough to put you on the radar screen of the authorities.


Well, thankfully he doesn't have much to worry about as the authorities, heck even the pope can pinpoint sarcasm from seriousness.


Look....If you knew anything about mainstream Christian doctrine you would know that any visions or dreams must square up with the teachings in scripture because the Bible is God's Revelation to us until Christ Himself appears again.


Actually, Jesus won't return as he indicated the end of days would be seen by the very people he was talking to at the time of his reign on Earth. Seeing as how Jesus never fulfilled the messianic prophecies of the Jews and that Jesus' own prophecy of when the end days would occur, it stands to reason that you Christians are following the wrong doctrine. Lest I remind you, there were no Christians back then and Jesus was Jewish.


There are no modern day prophets being given new revelations that extend beyond what is taught in scripture.


I beg to differ, if you follow the news enough then you can find a fair amount of people claiming new revelations from God.


A true believer has the complete revelation of God in scripture, so the believer seeks is to understand the Bible. The believer seeks to experience Truth, Justice, Love, transformation, and enlightenment.


Actually, if you follow Christian history, they seek to convert by any force necessary. In the first one-thousand years it was through bloody wars and genocides of various cultures and beliefs. Last eight-hundred the bloodshed from genocidal mass murders subsided and they went a more political route, but still killed on the bounds of what was law. Past two-hundred years, thankfully the violence has subsided enough to be at a more tolerable level and now we can just quietly prosecute violent Christians for their crimes against humanity as they commit them. If you'd like I would be more than happy to start a new thread chronicling the violent beginnings of your Christian beliefs.


When one claims to be hearing voices they are directed to seek help.


And yet you have no problem in treating the people back two-thousand years ago as prophets despite ... hearing voices in their heads.

*that's a contradictory belief BTW.*


The conduct and hatred you just spewed comes straight from the pit of H.E. double toothpicks.


Yet somehow when us atheists pick on the poor Christians for picketing with hateful slander against abortions and gays, we're somehow the bad guys... Hypocrites.


Some people would take it as a serious threat. It's like joking about a

bomb in an airport....a very calous, ignorant, and stupid thing to do.


He was clearly being sarcastic, hardly a threatening tone. Ask anyone in law enforcement. The only aspect of ignorance I see is a failure to detect such a bold tone even if it's typed out on the internet.



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 04:59 PM
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Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by John Matrix
 


The video is right to the point when it equates the unknown energy source with god or started to antropomorphise it and give it properties like "mind" and "intelligence".
The only reason for this is the complexity of the universe. But as I showed earlier in the other threads, complexity (low entropy) does not imply design or designer. Many complex systems arise naturally without intelligence from simple laws, given enough resources, energy and time.

www.talkorigins.org...
www.talkorigins.org...


Okay I going to tread here where I said in an earlier post I don't normally tread - so sue me
but this is a good natured comment in the spirit of "think about this" -

DNA is considered a map - an architecture if you like or a language - mathematics could be looked in the same way - its values are embedded in the physics of the Universe - and these "languages" were discovered by human beings - Language or architecture implies a designer - in fact if you ask any software designer if a program could design itself you would get a laugh - so the implication is indicative of at the very least an amazing designer.. to me at least


One other thing to think about - according to Richard Hawkings the notion of randomness being responsible for the existence of the Universe is itself a non starter because the numbers required for this random expression would be exponentially larger/longer than the age of the universe...doesn't "prove" anything but still.....interesting and intriguing



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 05:07 PM
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reply to post by realshanti
 



in fact if you ask any software designer if a program could design itself you would get a laugh


Only because there exist no physical law of the universe that allows for an inorganic computer to come about with software intact.

This thought process disregards that DNA is ultimately governed by the laws of physics and chemistry, which *do* permit organic self replicating molecules to form from non organic molecules. Which is why thoughts such as these get a hearty laugh as well.


One other thing to think about - according to Richard Hawkings the notion of randomness being responsible for the existence of the Universe is itself a non starter because the numbers required for this random expression would be exponentially larger/longer than the age of the universe...doesn't "prove" anything but still.....interesting and intriguing


In reality, there is no such thing as randomness or chance so arguments in regards to life with these terms are moot. Everything follows the laws of physics as they exist within the boundaries of our universe and thus they *have* to act accordingly. When given the proper conditions, organic molecules will form and with further proper conditions those organic molecules are permitted to become self replicating molecules which then would change over time eventually leading to complex life.

Randomness and chance are arguments used by those who hate physics, chemistry and biology.



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 


but the question of "language" - and chemistry, physics etc - those values really are a kind of language - language implies a speaker ...I suppose you could put this down to perception but still it was compelling enough for me to rethink my own atheist notions years ago - anyway all the best to you - and thanks for commenting



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 05:31 PM
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reply to post by realshanti
 


Doesn't imply much to me. I consider arguments like that to be nothing more than a play on words. DNA isn't a language, it's a chemical process. The laws of physics isn't a language, it's just a discovery of how thing's work. Math isn't a language, it's just a means of adding, subtracting, multiplying, dividing and other more abstract concepts.

I understand some people *want* our universe or more particularly our species to be something more special than it already is, but the arrogant notion that everything was created for us is just going a bit overboard. The usage of wordplay to further that particular belief implies an agenda to stop advancement of knowledge that would contradict that belief.

Yes, there are *a lot* of thing's we do not know about our universe, about how life arises or how a species can become as intelligent as we have, but not knowing anything doesn't imply a supernatural explanation, no matter how much we wish it so. The belief of the monotheistic God is perhaps the most popular belief in creationism, yet it denies the equal validity of any other God as being the one true answer to the universes beginnings. Suffice it to say, the monotheistic believers scare the living feces out of me, they have been the most detrimental instrument in stopping advancement and destroying entire beliefs. If there is a God out there and he is their God, he can kiss my hairy ape bunghole.



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 


"He who denies me denies the one who sent me."

I don't think there was any need for you to say what you did. Must you go so far..?



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 05:42 PM
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Whatever you believe - some evidence can be found that proves or disproves it.

Because there are so many ways to interpret and present data to support a case - and there is not an infinite amount of data - and data has to be interpreted - means there is no such thing as proof, or truth.

Wake up - if you believe something - then great for you - but your belief is based on things that you decide are true or false - they literally cannot be PROVEN - because there is no such thing as proof.

Even in a court, where someone might be executed - the measuring stick is 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Meaning - there is always some doubt - so give it up already - understand that belief always relies on you ASSUMING that one or other piece of evidence is true.

NOTHING can ever be completely PROVED. It is all simply a stupid way of thinking - once you believe something, you are easily manipulated - because you have decided to label some pieces of data as TRUE and others as FALSE. They are neither true or false - they are pieces of data.

Belief is just a lazy way to think. Logic requires data to be converted into 0 and 1 bits - thats the way logic works - but data is analog. ALWAYS understand, that when you decide something is true or false - it is a personal decision.

Logic is important - so to preserve your data - you can use a mental excersise - and say LET ME ASSUME THAT SUCH AND SUCH IS TRUE - now that doesnt make it true - its an assumption - and when you are done with the logical process, then you should hand the data back into memory in its original form, which is analog - and neither true nor false.

Belief is personal - it allows people to apply logic by rendering data into 0 and 1 - but it is ALL BASED ON PERSONAL ASSUMPTIONS.

While you have beliefs - you are just cattle to be controlled - and you will never be able to understand anything. Understanding requires analog data - ie. uncertainty.

All your doing with your failed model is becoming like a computer - DOES NOT COMPUTE - DOES NOT COMPUTE - you will never be able to accept and hold multiple conflicting views at the same time - you will filter data, unconsciously - you hamper your learning, you restrict your experience - you confine your mind - its all based on your personal choices to make this or that true or false.

What makes a person think he can possibly know the difference between what is true and what is false? We cant even tell if milk is bad before we smell it - we cant see through a wall, we cant see radio waves - we experience nothing - we live for a length of time that could be approximated to zero - or most profound sense has the range of 'touch'.

We have a pathetic array of senses - and proving something as absolute means you have to subject it to an infinite number of tests over an infinirte duration of time - we cant even come close.

Give up the stupid - your wrong, Im right paradigm when discussing physical reality. Only in abstract can true and false exist - never in the real world.

Right and wrong are personal choices - even if we did get it right - and our choice of true actually was a universal truth - we wouldn't know it, and couldnt possibly prove it.

So do I believe what I am saying? No, I understand it - which means I can apply it practically and get an expected result - or rather it fits a conceptual model that agrees with itself. It is an abstract - and therefore not constrained by reality.

Thought exists outside of reality - as does your concious mind - fantasy, logic, imagination and reason are all equally appropriate when applying abstracts - logic and reason are only applicable to reality, which is beyond our capacity to know with certainty - because our consciousness DOESN'T EXIST THERE! It exists external to reality - and does not experience it directly - but rather through the faculty of our senses - which are extremely limited.

Probably all sounds like psycho babble to most - unfortunately it is the one thing you can ever truly know - that we can know nothing about reality, but we can understand it.

[edit on 9-10-2009 by Amagnon]



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by OmegaPoint
 


He who denies a false prophet has done a good job!

Jesus never fulfilled the messianic prophecies nor was the messiah to usher in a new religious faith of Christianity. The Jewish messiah was for the Jewish people as foretold by the original holy book held by the Jewish people. So yes... I did have to go that far because you Christians thrive off of ignorance and need to learn your place.
LINK

Please do not forget, Jesus was Jewish. Say it with me, Jesus was Jewish and Jesus was supposed to fulfill the Jewish messianic prophecies and not usher in any new religions. The original biblical God is the Jewish God and according to that original biblical God, his word and law is forever unchanging.

That is till you Christians showed up.



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 05:58 PM
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in fact if you ask any software designer if a program could design itself you would get a laugh



Not true. Programs can design themselves.

www.talkorigins.org...:mathematics

www.talkorigins.org...:electrical

Interesting stuff btw...



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by realshanti
 



Suffice it to say, the monotheistic believers scare the living feces out of me, they have been the most detrimental instrument in stopping advancement and destroying entire beliefs.


This is actually an emotional and not a true statement - the Catholic church has been instrumental in the advance of science among other things - the intellectual rigor of the Jesuits is legendary - the advancement of human rights, the abolition of slavery, in fact much of the your way life is a result of the action of great religious thinkers and activists - so you have no need to be afraid of Christians - the church has had her dark moments to be sure - as any organization of humans is bound to do at times unfortunately, however she has come through it intact and with a renewed sense of purpose for good....honestly I don't pretend that you will be convinced by my arguments so no need for a rant...we can agree to disagree without enmity.



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