Is compromise possible between militant atheists and religious believers?

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by antiopression

Originally posted by captaintyinknots


Science was simply written off as alchemy back in the day. Because it wasnt called science, doesnt mean it didnt exist.

Really? Prove it scientifically.

Line # 2

Nice strawman. your agenda is exposed. Take the rhetoric elsewhere.

Na, I'll continue my rhetoric right here. But thanks for revealing your arrogance.

Now, to the other atheists. I like science But atheists have latched on to science as a way to disprove God. On the contrary, the further science goes, the more they prove (to me anyway) that God does exists in everything.

For example. I was watching Mythbusters last night. They were trying to prove that physics is right, and that a bullet shot out of a gun drops at the same rate as a bullet dropped. I feel they successfully proved the theory correct.

Now, we all know who explained gravity. Newton. But, contrary to popular belief, he didn't make the law of gravity. Gravity existed way before Newton.

The boundries of gravity were set into place before Newton. So, to say Newton came up with the law of gravity, is indeed disingenuous.

And by the way, Newton was a man seeking God through experimentation. A true scientist.

[edit on 8-10-2009 by antiopression]

Originally posted by antiopression

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by antiopression

Originally posted by captaintyinknots


Science was simply written off as alchemy back in the day. Because it wasnt called science, doesnt mean it didnt exist.

Really? Prove it scientifically.

Line # 2

Nice strawman. your agenda is exposed. Take the rhetoric elsewhere.

Na, I'll continue my rhetoric right here. But thanks for revealing your arrogance.

Now, to the other atheists. I like science But atheists have latched on to science as a way to disprove God. On the contrary, the further science goes, the more they prove (to me anyway) that God does exists in everything.

For example. I was watching Mythbusters last night. They were trying to prove that physics is right, and that a bullet shot out of a gun drops at the same rate as a bullet dropped. I feel they successfully proved the theory correct.

Now, we all know who explained gravity. Newton. But, contrary to popular belief, he didn't make the law of gravity. Gravity existed way before Newton.

The boundries of gravity were set into place before Newton. So, to say Newton came up with the law of gravity, is indeed disingenuous.

And by the way, Newton was a man seeking God through experimentation. A true scientist.

[edit on 8-10-2009 by antiopression]

My arrogance? You are the one here making generalized claims about something you obviously know nothing about. Yikes

You then cite mythbusters as a credible source? Again-you are exposed.

Guess what-as you just said, the boundaries of gravity were around far before teh apple fell on Newton's head. Therefore, the science already existed. It simply wasnt understood yet.

Oops, you just proved yourself wrong....

reply to post by silent thunder


Doubtful. Those given to taking to the extremes will always conflict with those on the opposite.

reply to post by captaintyinknots


You are infected with hatred. Sorry, I don't argue with your ilk.

You get the honor of being the first on my ignore list.

Buh-bye.

Originally posted by silent thunder
Could a compromise be possible? This New York Times Op Ed guy seems to think so:

"Believers could scale back their conception of God's role in creation, and atheists could accept that some notions of 'higher purpose' are compatible with scientific materialism. And the two might learn to get along."

More at source:
www.nytimes.com...

What does scientific materialism have to do with atheism? The argument of religion vs non-religion has become so distorted over the years these people don't even know what they're debating.

Atheism simply affirms the non-existence of gods, you don't need to be educated in science to be an atheist. There has been atheists as long as there have been gods to disbelieve, long before science provided better answers. Atheism is a philosophy, science is a method used to explain the world around us; science ultimately leads to atheism, but atheism doesn't necessarily lead to science.

If a "higher purpose" infers a god, it hardly makes sense to ask an atheist to concede that possibility. Science doesn't start out with preconceptions about what may or may not be there, to ask scientists to keep the possibility of gods in mind when looking for answers isn't scientific.

This whole Christian/science cooperative thing is the pipe dream of desperate Christians looking for some kind of affirmation of their beliefs. Science has no reason to concede anything to religion, science churns out new and exciting answers day in and day out, while religion loses ground and their gods get smaller and smaller. They make this argument with their best poker face, as if they want to meet at some imagined middle, but their time is short and they can smell it.

Originally posted by antiopression
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

You are infected with hatred. Sorry, I don't argue with your ilk.

You get the honor of being the first on my ignore list.

Buh-bye.

Hahahaha. Sad. Just sad. If you are going to make claims, at least have the fortitude to back it up.

reply to post by John Matrix

Sirnex. You know very well that anyone can claim what they are doing is in the name of God. It doesn't mean the Christian God. You know there are many Gods...so don't play us for suckers here.

Oh please, typical response. Stop placing your moral convictions above the moral law and commands of the biblical God. Your moral convictions *do not* supersede those of the biblical God regardless of you agreeing with them or not. You ignoring the commands of the God you follow in his own divinely, infallibly inspired holy book is what makes you a sucker, not me pointing it out.

If you *choose* not to follow your Gods instructions as he lays them out in his own words, then that is your choice, he tells you how he'll deal with that later. Yet, mocking those who *do* follow his words and ostracizing them and placing them in the same grouping as non believers is just plain idiotic. Stop ignoring the double standards of your faith and placing blame on the atheists who do *not* murder in the name of God.

The first thing that should come to your mind by a simple reading of your quote from Hitler is that Hitler had a perverted unbiblical perception of God.

More accurately, you choose not to accept what you consider as immoral regardless of God commanding it in his own holy scripture. You can not claim Hitler had a perverted sense of God when God has commanded acts such as that as permissible in his eyes. Read your own holy book damnit.

Also, the source for those quotes I posted is clearly stated at the bottom of the page....and you can do the research....so don't just come on here and try to discredit them as if it's impossible to verify.

The original source, not the website discussing it. The translations of one man who claims, note that... claims to be the only person who had this information. That is what I'm calling into question, particularly because it goes against everything recorded in writing and video transcripts that we know about Hitler's beliefs in God. Use a smidgen of common sense please.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I don't pretend to speak for atheists...

No, you don't pretend. You come right out and do it.

You tell us what we think and believe. You are wrong.

I do not tell anyone what they think.

I tell others what atheists believe.....I never said I know what they think.

I know what an atheist is....and that doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

I made no personal attack....so relax your calm please!!

Atheists reject God because they don't want to accept the idea

that a higher moral authority than themselves exists.

Like it or not, the atheist places faith in a belief that says there is no God.

The Atheists ultimate moral standard of right and wrong is themselves.

If you disagree, tell me what your moral standard is, and from whence it

came?

Originally posted by John Matrix

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I don't pretend to speak for atheists...

No, you don't pretend. You come right out and do it.

You tell us what we think and believe. You are wrong.

I do not tell anyone what they think.

I tell others what atheists believe.....I never said I know what they think.

I know what an atheist is....and that doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

I made no personal attack....so relax your calm please!!

Atheists reject God because they don't want to accept the idea

that a higher moral authority than themselves exists.

Like it or not, the atheist places faith in a belief that says there is no God.

The Atheists ultimate moral standard of right and wrong is themselves.

If you disagree, tell me what your moral standard is, and from whence it

came?

Thank you for proving you have no horse in this race and therefore have no ground to speak on it.
I am amazed that out of one side of your mouth you all want to group all atheists as one, and out of the other you want to argue why certain christians shouldnt count as christians.

The hypocrisy apparently knows no bounds.

You obviously DO NOT know what an atheist is. So let me break it down for you:
An atheist is one who does not believe in god. To say ANYTHING else, is stereotyping and generalizing, and false.

There is no specific reason why all atheists do not believe in god. Most have their own reasons.

There is no specific set of morals for an atheist. Most go by their own belief of right and wrong.

Simply amazing....

I am of the opinion that

BOTH SIDES

needs to not worry so much what the other side believes. You disagree, as long as you hold to your respective positions you will ALWAYS disagree. This need not cause conflict if you learn to repsect other viewpoints even if you don't share them. Neither one of you can prove your case beyond a shadow of a doubt and all this conflict is pointless masterbation that is doing little more than holding us back as a species.

[edit on 8-10-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

reply to post by John Matrix


You are insane man, listen to reason and open your eyes! We don't reject God so we can make up our own morals!

There are countless differing cultures and religious beliefs on this planet, all with their own moral code of conduct that are not in agreement with your biblical God's moral code of conduct. There is no inherent sense of right and wrong as each culture and belief structure has their own sense of right and wrong, what's right for you is wrong for someone else.

No where does an atheist claim or has ever claimed to have rejected God in order to claim their own moral conduct. Never has this been done in all of history, and to top that off there have been atheists before monotheism was ever devised as a religious structure.

Read your own bible damnit, your God commands his followers to commit acts that we atheists would deem as immoral. Sorry if we don't accept that it's ok to stone your kids when they get out of line.

reply to post by sirnex


As usual, Thank you for your kind remarks sirnex.

But I already rebutted your claim and proved you wrong.

You came back with one silly statement from Hitler and

claimed...see...see...Hitler was a Christian...when I already proved you

wrong with numerous quotes right from Hitler himself.
No WW2 historian worth listening to would put his reputation on the line by

agreeing with your view.

reply to post by ZombieOctopus


No, science does not lead to atheism at all (see my posts on the last page which were ignored). Some of THE brightest minds in science today, are moving towards an all-encompassing God hypothesis, and it appears to involve a synthesis between a veriety of disciplines, including the study of consciousness itself as being fundamenal to reality.

reply to post by John Matrix


So you disagree with recorded history? You disagree with Hitler himself? Are you calling Hitler a liar when he states a belief in the biblical God? How arrogant of yourself to deem all of history in this regard as a lie. See folks, this is *why* atheists and the religious can never find any compromise. Unless it's their way, then it's no way. They disregard their own history and try to pass that bad stuff onto us. It's disgusting, it's insulting and perhaps this is why some atheists are militant, sick of the BS.

You disregarding Hitler's own words does not disprove what he said, it just make's you out to be a purposeful delusional imbecile. Don't call me a holocaust denier when your claiming Hitler had no belief in God and claiming he never said what he was doing was Gods work. I don't care if you don't like what Hitler did, just don't place the blame on atheists when *we* don't conduct ourselves the way you people have done throughout history.

Christian denier.

Ahem Sirnex. About Hitler.

Views as an adult
Something of Hitler's religious beliefs can be gathered from his public and private statements. However, they present a discrepant picture. Some private statements attributed to him remain disputed; his public statements come from works of propaganda.

[edit] Public statements
Early on, Hitler expressed his opinion about God and religion as follows, "We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany."[7]

In public statements, especially at the beginning of his rule, Hitler frequently spoke positively about the Christian heritage of German culture and his belief in the "Aryan" Christ. Joachim Fest wrote, "Hitler knew, through the constant invocation of the God the Lord (German: Herrgott) or of providence (German: Vorsehung), to make the impression of a godly way of thought."[8] He used his "ability to simulate, even to potentially critical Church leaders, an image of a leader keen to uphold and protect Christianity," according to Ian Kershaw. Kershaw adds that Hitler by this ability also succeeded in appeasing possible Church resistance to anti-Christian Nazi Party radicals.[9] For example, on March 23, 1933, he addressed the Reichstag: "The National Government regards the two Christian confessions (i.e. Catholicism and Protestantism) as factors essential to the soul of the German people. ... We hold the spiritual forces of Christianity to be indispensable elements in the moral uplift of most of the German people."[10] At one point he described his religious status: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."[11]

According to Albert Speer, Hitler remained a formal member of the Catholic Church until his death (unlike other leading Nazis who had formally, publicly and with agitation left the Church), although Speer also notes that Hitler "had no real attachment to it."[12] According to Hitler biographer John Toland, writing of Hitler's religious views and their effects: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of God...."[13] Hitler's own words from Mein Kampf, however, seem to refute this notion of religious antisemitism inspiring Hitler's mind. From childhood onward, Hitler seems to have continued to reject antisemitism or anti-Judaism based on religious arguments like the deicide claim:

“ "There were very few Jews in Linz. In the course of centuries the Jews who lived there had become Europeanized in external appearance and were so much like other human beings that I even looked upon them as Germans. The reason why I did not then perceive the absurdity of such an illusion was that the only external mark which I recognized as distinguishing them from us was the practice of their strange religion. As I thought that they were persecuted on account of their Faith my aversion to hearing remarks against them grew almost into a feeling of abhorrence. I did not in the least suspect that there could be such a thing as a systematic anti-Semitism.
Then I came to Vienna.

Confused by the mass of impressions I received from the architectural surroundings and depressed by my own troubles, I did not at first distinguish between the different social strata of which the population of that mammoth city was composed. Although Vienna then had about two hundred thousand Jews among its population of two millions, I did not notice them. During the first weeks of my sojourn my eyes and my mind were unable to cope with the onrush of new ideas and values. Not until I gradually settled down to my surroundings, and the confused picture began to grow clearer, did I acquire a more discriminating view of my new world. And with that I came up against the Jewish problem.

I will not say that the manner in which I first became acquainted with it was particularly unpleasant for me. In the Jew I still saw only a man who was of a different religion, and therefore, on grounds of human tolerance, I was against the idea that he should be attacked because he had a different faith. And so I considered that the tone adopted by the anti-Semitic Press in Vienna was unworthy of the cultural traditions of a great people. The memory of certain events which happened in the Middle Ages came into my mind, and I felt that I should not like to see them repeated...."[14]
”

Professor Guenter Lewy, author of "The Catholic Church and Nazi Germany" quotes Hitler as saying that he "... regard Christianity as the foundation of our national morality and the family as the basis of our national life."

According to historian Richard Steigmann-Gall, much is known about Hitler's views on religion through Hitler's book, Mein Kampf.[15] In Mein Kampf, Hitler wrote neither as an atheist, nor an agnostic, nor as a believer in a remote, rationalist divinity; instead he expressed his belief in one providential, active, deity:

"What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and the reproduction of our race...so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe...Peoples that bastardize themselves, or let themselves be bastardized, sin against the will of eternal Providence."[15]

In an attempt to justify Nazi intolerance he recommends militantism, which he associates with Christianity's rise to Roman state religion, as a model for the Nazis in their pursuit of power, while simultaneously lamenting the demise of Pre-Christian Roman Religion,

"The individual may establish with pain today that with the appearance of Christianity the first spiritual terror entered into the far freer ancient world, but he will not be able to contest the fact that since then the world has been afflicted and dominated by this coercion, and that coercion is broken only by coercion, and terror only by terror. Only then can a new state of affairs be constructively created. Political parties are inclined to compromises; philosophies never. Political parties even reckon with opponents; philosophies proclaim their infallibility. "[16]

Elsewhere in Mein Kampf Hitler speaks of the "creator of the universe" and "eternal Providence." He also states his belief that the Aryan race was created by God, and that it would be a sin to dilute it through racial intermixing. Hitler writes:

"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will."

According to Steigmann-Gall, Hitler's reference to God as the "Lord of Creation" and the necessity of obeying "His will" along with several references to Jesus, reveals the infusion of Christianity into his thinking. Other sources also show Hitler's Christian thinking, according to Steigmann-Gall. He notes an unpublished manuscript where Hitler sketched out his world-view with similar Christian references, and he gives as an example a speech on April 1922 where Hitler said that Jesus was "the true God." Finally, Steigmann-Gall gives another example where in a private Nazi meeting Hitler again stated the centrality of Jesus' teachings to the Nazi movement.[citation needed]

[edit] Private statements
Hitler’s private statements about Christianity were largely negative. Hitler’s intimates, such as Joseph Goebbels, Albert Speer, and Martin Bormann, report many such statements, although the historical validity of some remarks has been questioned, particularly the collection called Hitler's Table Talk. Ian Kershaw makes clear the questionable nature of Table Talk as a source;[17] however, although Kershaw recommends treating the work with caution, he does not suggest dispensing with it altogether. Atheist activist/historian Richard Carrier goes further, contending that certain portions of Table Talk, especially those regarding Hitler's hatred of Christianity, are inventions. [18] Speer confirmed the authenticity of those of Hitler's table talk transcripts made by Henry Picker in his 1976 Spandau: The Secret Diaries, and rejected accusations calling Picker a cunning forger.

There is less controversy about other statements. Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939: "The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay." Albert Speer reports a similar statement: “You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"[19][20] In the Hossbach Memorandum, Hitler is recorded as saying that "only the disintegrating effect of Christianity, and the symptoms of age" were responsible for the demise of the Roman Empire.[21] In 1941, Hitler praised an anti-Christian tract from AD 362, neo-platonist and pagan Roman emperor Julian the Apostate's Against the Galileans, saying "I really hadn't known how clearly a man like Julian had judged Christians and Christianity, one must read this...."

en.wikipedia.org...'s_religious_beliefs

Otherwords... You are wrong.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

You obviously DO NOT know what an atheist is. So let me break it down for you:

An atheist is one who does not believe in god. To say ANYTHING else, is stereotyping and generalizing, and false.

That is exactly what I said several times alread. If you read my posts,

which I deliberately try to keep "simple" so all can understand, you would

have realized that my understanding of an atheist is no different than what

you just stated.

There is no specific reason why all atheists do not believe in god. Most have their own reasons.

Own reasons hey???? Sounds pretty darn specific to me?

There is no specific set of morals for an atheist. Most go by their own belief of right and wrong.

Right on my friend!! That is exactly what I said several times!!!

It's the same as saying "each man doing right in their own eyes." The

results are self-evident. Just watch the evening news.

I appreciate your honesty, and thank you for verifying those very points

that I already made.

I'm right you're wrong na na na na na na - is the gist of the thread. Not much thoughtful debate or consideration for other perspectives or viewpoints. I offered one for a scientific frame of refernece by which there could be some shared commonality, but it was just ignored.

Originally posted by John Matrix

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

You obviously DO NOT know what an atheist is. So let me break it down for you:

An atheist is one who does not believe in god. To say ANYTHING else, is stereotyping and generalizing, and false.

That is exactly what I said several times alread. If you read my posts,

which I deliberately try to keep "simple" so all can understand, you would

have realized that my understanding of an atheist is no different than what

you just stated.

There is no specific reason why all atheists do not believe in god. Most have their own reasons.

Own reasons hey???? Sounds pretty darn specific to me?

There is no specific set of morals for an atheist. Most go by their own belief of right and wrong.

Right on my friend!! That is exactly what I said several times!!!

It's the same as saying "each man doing right in their own eyes." The

results are self-evident. Just watch the evening news.

I appreciate your honesty, and thank you for verifying those very points

that I already made.

I did read all your posts. And what you have claimed is that all atheists perscribe to the religion of science. You are wrong in that, as I just said. As much as you want to twist my words and play the "strawman" game, the fact is, you said it.

You are right in some of the points you made. But the fact is, you still dont know what an atheist is.

reply to post by OmegaPoint


Such a lovely example as to why they will never get along if you ask me Omega. They can't leave each other alone.



[edit on 8-10-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


Interesting. It would be nice to find another source other than wiki. But

I'm starring you for your efforts. My quotes a few pages back are from handwritten accounts made by Hitler's aid. There are other sources that verify them....so it's reasonable to conclude that Hitler was not a Christian in nature, manner, practice, actions, deeds, etc.