I agree with this. Science cannot prove God does not exist. And Religion cannot prove he/she DOES exist. So my question is: wat da problem is? I agree
with Sirnex in his post. People are all children at heart, I know too many people who say this. And how true it is. (This is a generalization, not to
be interpreted as a personal attack against ANYONE). Humans are children who squabble over who has the best new toy. Atheists toy is the Almighty
Science God. And religious fanatics Toy is the Almighty God/Allah/Jehovah/Elohim/Buddha/Mary/Jesus...whatever.
Point is, earth is a playground of kids that like to boast about whos toy is better. Always has been since science was invented.
Science=Theory
Belief=Faith
Theory means something cannot be proven but is most likely what occurs in all instances.
Faith means to accept something as truth without proof.
Well....neither faith NOR theory offer any proof. So the question still stands: wat da problem is?
edit cause I quoted the wrong post...woopsies
[edit on 8-10-2009 by Mr. Toodles]
Is compromise possible between militant atheists and religious believers?, page 3
privacy
reply posted on 8-10-2009 @ 03:28 AM by whitewave
reply to post by sirnex
The title of this thread: Is compromise possible between militant atheists and religious believers:
Your response to the first non-atheist who shows up on the thread:
"The god path and the naturalistic path are so insanely different that they can not ever be reconciled into one grand unified theory of idiocy."
It seems the question has been answered.
What was it someone was saying earlier about atheists not being the ones to rail on Christians?.......
[edit on 8-10-2009 by whitewave]
The title of this thread: Is compromise possible between militant atheists and religious believers:
Your response to the first non-atheist who shows up on the thread:
"The god path and the naturalistic path are so insanely different that they can not ever be reconciled into one grand unified theory of idiocy."
It seems the question has been answered.
What was it someone was saying earlier about atheists not being the ones to rail on Christians?.......
[edit on 8-10-2009 by whitewave]
reply posted on 8-10-2009 @ 05:06 AM by sirnex
reply to post by whitewave
Oh please, atheists aren't railing on the Christians, I'm just letting them no that there God has no place in a naturalistic explanation to the universe. You want to brandish around the word 'militant' in regards to any belief structure, keep it with your own. Christians have caused more deaths and genocides than any one group in history. Talk about militant in your beliefs!
Face it, this is a fact and has always been a fact.
God is an explanation for the universes beginning through an act of supernatural creation, created and designed by God alone.
The naturalistic theories, for which there are many, postulate a universe that was neither created nor design by any supernatural entities but arose through a natural process that is of yet still unexplained and unknown.
The glaring issue facing reconciliation between God and science is that they both postulate a beginning to the universe, but at opposite ends of the spectrum, there is no middle ground.
When I 'railed' on bluejay, I did so in context of the personal experience argument. People claim personal experience for religious truth in well over one-thousand different deities. Seeing as how most personal experience arguers believe in the monotheistic god, we can validly state that god doesn't exist as a real entity as he is the new team player on the proverbial ball field. To reconcile *that* particular god, science would have to throw out *everything* consider to be archeological fact showing that god as being created by mankind like all the rest.
I had also given other explanations of where we would have to thrown out most if not all of science or naturalistic explanations if we attempt to create a middle ground. That one variable of including God would create a huge mess in physics, chemistry and biology. All of our advances in those fields are due to naturalistic explanations *without god* for how they work. Throwing God into any one specific point in any of those processes would invalidate all those theories and facts and make all of our technological advances made from those sciences an impossibility as they all rely on the sole reasoning that these forces or processes don't require a supernatural entity to work and have been demonstrated as to not require a supernatural entity.
Even if we throw God into morality, we *still* can't reconcile him with atheists. Attempting to show that God is required for a person to be moral is plain dumb. The biblical god tells parents to stone their children, immoral in my book. There are many different cultures and religious doctrines that all dictate different moral codes of conduct and not all of them are in agreement with each other. There is no universal morality and there never will be unless mankind unites as one people living on one planet.
I understand some of you religiously minded folks may find statements such as this as being 'militant', but honestly it's just common sense. Until you prove your god is a real entity, keep him to yourself and stop trying to push back our advancement as you have been doing for two-thousand years. Who care's if we discover thing's that go against the idea of a naked invisible daddy of creation, you want to believe in that, go for it. We don't so stop shoving it upon us. Get it off our money, keep it out of my schools, stop preaching it at abortion clinics and most of all, stop knocking on my damn door! You people are the militant one's, you bother and pester in hopes that you might convert us. If your god is so real, let HIM convert us, let him prove he is real.
No, instead get all up in a bind for telling you a simple common sense truth, but then again, since when have you guys listened to common sense and logical reasoning.
[edit on 8-10-2009 by sirnex]
[edit on 8-10-2009 by sirnex]
Oh please, atheists aren't railing on the Christians, I'm just letting them no that there God has no place in a naturalistic explanation to the universe. You want to brandish around the word 'militant' in regards to any belief structure, keep it with your own. Christians have caused more deaths and genocides than any one group in history. Talk about militant in your beliefs!
Face it, this is a fact and has always been a fact.
God is an explanation for the universes beginning through an act of supernatural creation, created and designed by God alone.
The naturalistic theories, for which there are many, postulate a universe that was neither created nor design by any supernatural entities but arose through a natural process that is of yet still unexplained and unknown.
The glaring issue facing reconciliation between God and science is that they both postulate a beginning to the universe, but at opposite ends of the spectrum, there is no middle ground.
When I 'railed' on bluejay, I did so in context of the personal experience argument. People claim personal experience for religious truth in well over one-thousand different deities. Seeing as how most personal experience arguers believe in the monotheistic god, we can validly state that god doesn't exist as a real entity as he is the new team player on the proverbial ball field. To reconcile *that* particular god, science would have to throw out *everything* consider to be archeological fact showing that god as being created by mankind like all the rest.
I had also given other explanations of where we would have to thrown out most if not all of science or naturalistic explanations if we attempt to create a middle ground. That one variable of including God would create a huge mess in physics, chemistry and biology. All of our advances in those fields are due to naturalistic explanations *without god* for how they work. Throwing God into any one specific point in any of those processes would invalidate all those theories and facts and make all of our technological advances made from those sciences an impossibility as they all rely on the sole reasoning that these forces or processes don't require a supernatural entity to work and have been demonstrated as to not require a supernatural entity.
Even if we throw God into morality, we *still* can't reconcile him with atheists. Attempting to show that God is required for a person to be moral is plain dumb. The biblical god tells parents to stone their children, immoral in my book. There are many different cultures and religious doctrines that all dictate different moral codes of conduct and not all of them are in agreement with each other. There is no universal morality and there never will be unless mankind unites as one people living on one planet.
I understand some of you religiously minded folks may find statements such as this as being 'militant', but honestly it's just common sense. Until you prove your god is a real entity, keep him to yourself and stop trying to push back our advancement as you have been doing for two-thousand years. Who care's if we discover thing's that go against the idea of a naked invisible daddy of creation, you want to believe in that, go for it. We don't so stop shoving it upon us. Get it off our money, keep it out of my schools, stop preaching it at abortion clinics and most of all, stop knocking on my damn door! You people are the militant one's, you bother and pester in hopes that you might convert us. If your god is so real, let HIM convert us, let him prove he is real.
No, instead get all up in a bind for telling you a simple common sense truth, but then again, since when have you guys listened to common sense and logical reasoning.
[edit on 8-10-2009 by sirnex]
[edit on 8-10-2009 by sirnex]
reply posted on 8-10-2009 @ 06:46 AM by John Matrix
Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by whitewave
Christians have caused more deaths and genocides than any one group in history. Talk about militant in your beliefs!
Sirnex: Can you qualify that statement?
Before you point to the crusades, I have already demonstrated the Roman Catholic Church was in control and the protestant reformation did not take place until 1517.......77 years after the invention of the printing press. There were very VERY few true Christian believers back then. In fact, there are very few even today. Back in the 1200 to 1400's the masses were not well educated and they were dumned down as far as spiritual beliefs by the opressive rule of the RCC (people were forbid to read a bible and only a few understood Latin.
Also consider: I have presented the evidence to debunk the belief that Hitler was a Christian. He was raised a Catholic, accepted Darwin's survival of the fittest, natural selection, etc. and he despised Christianity.
In reply to "Lookingup" on another thread, I slaughtered his statements in which he insisted Hitler was a Christian: www.abovetopsecret.com...
So, naturalist/evolutionist teachings led leaders to justify more mass killings in a 100 year period than what had occurred in all previous known history.
reply posted on 8-10-2009 @ 08:14 AM by Republican08
reply to post by John Matrix
Assuming things again about people you don't know?
Please walk up to the dvd player take out "Expelled" and burn the disinfo and lies and manipulation of an ignorant fool, named Ben Stein.
Assuming things again about people you don't know?
Please walk up to the dvd player take out "Expelled" and burn the disinfo and lies and manipulation of an ignorant fool, named Ben Stein.
reply posted on 8-10-2009 @ 08:28 AM by John Matrix
Originally posted by Republican08
reply to post by John Matrix
Assuming things again about people you don't know?
Please walk up to the dvd player take out "Expelled" and burn the disinfo and lies and manipulation of an ignorant fool, named Ben Stein.
First, your post is off topic.
Second you are attacking people and their views without knowing them or what you are talking about.
What are the "assuming things" are you referring to? You did not quote anything specific to qualify your criticism.
I enjoyed Ben Stein and the others featured in the video....including Dawkins. I thought the video was well done....unlike some of the more militant style videos that the atheist evolutionists put out about creationsists.
I saw no disinfo, lies and manipulation. If you want fraud and lies look up recapitualation and pitdown man.
reply posted on 8-10-2009 @ 08:36 AM by Republican08
reply posted on 8-10-2009 @ 09:07 AM by John Matrix
reply to post by Republican08
I will review the video and get back to you on it.
Since it involves Dawkins and Stein who are at the forefront in the heated debate on evolution vs. creation, I expect some embarrassing moments from both sides. But I have not been able to view the video yet....so hang in there.
Do you think evolutionists/atheists haven't engaged in disinfo, out right lies, and fraud?
BTW, thank you for responding to my post....i'm trying to increase my response to posts ratio.
I will review the video and get back to you on it.
Since it involves Dawkins and Stein who are at the forefront in the heated debate on evolution vs. creation, I expect some embarrassing moments from both sides. But I have not been able to view the video yet....so hang in there.
Do you think evolutionists/atheists haven't engaged in disinfo, out right lies, and fraud?
BTW, thank you for responding to my post....i'm trying to increase my response to posts ratio.
reply posted on 8-10-2009 @ 09:24 AM by Republican08
reply to post by John Matrix
Posts to reply ratio... hmm
Is that effective, like if I hit post reply, does it go up, I thought it was just for responses to your threads...hmm
There is lies and fraud in everything, admittingly.
We still get taxed like the .... oh no.. that's just us isn't it...
Free pass for churches...
A youtuber, I think, made the example that atheism is as much a religion as bald is a hair color.
I believe it's also the creationist that use the human footprint in the dinosaur foot print, and quickly made tons of textbooks and sold them for a pretty penny.
No research was actually done...... oh and when there was research done.... yeah, it was all a hoax, but part of the youth, now believed in people walking with dinosaurs...
... Who believes that they are wrong... no one really walks around being like, well i'm a muslim, but its okay because I know it's not right. lol
And to make feminist happy, it should be he/she.
And the laws of physics... the basic principles, I don't rape, I don't steal, I don't kill, I obey the gov't when seen fit.
I'm not god... aw shucks, my ego is pretty big, but not infinite.
... bald... hair color.
Most likely the muslims got this one in the bag
The Gospel will most likely be preached on all corners, and science won't.
Still tribes in africa who think getting rid of aids is done only by having sex with a virgin.
Yet we send bibles, and the pope condemns condoms....
I think they should be funded.
I mean, what's so wrong with that...?
Even though, funding isn't enough, NASA can't even fund it's neccesary and mandatory objectives.
But a pastor can say he needs some millions of dollars immediately or god is going to kill him.... and he receives it. Sigh.
Posts to reply ratio... hmm
Is that effective, like if I hit post reply, does it go up, I thought it was just for responses to your threads...hmm
There is lies and fraud in everything, admittingly.
As long as atheists can teach there religion to our kids and receive government funding, there will be no compromise, and Creation science will continue to expose the lies and fraud inherent in the atheists religion.
We still get taxed like the .... oh no.. that's just us isn't it...
Free pass for churches...
A youtuber, I think, made the example that atheism is as much a religion as bald is a hair color.
I believe it's also the creationist that use the human footprint in the dinosaur foot print, and quickly made tons of textbooks and sold them for a pretty penny.
No research was actually done...... oh and when there was research done.... yeah, it was all a hoax, but part of the youth, now believed in people walking with dinosaurs...
The atheist believes he is right.
... Who believes that they are wrong... no one really walks around being like, well i'm a muslim, but its okay because I know it's not right. lol
And to make feminist happy, it should be he/she.
The atheist obeys himself.
And the laws of physics... the basic principles, I don't rape, I don't steal, I don't kill, I obey the gov't when seen fit.
The atheist is his own God.
I'm not god... aw shucks, my ego is pretty big, but not infinite.
The atheist is a religious believer.
... bald... hair color.
The Gospel message will be preached throughout all corners of the earth.
Most likely the muslims got this one in the bag
The Gospel will most likely be preached on all corners, and science won't.
Still tribes in africa who think getting rid of aids is done only by having sex with a virgin.
Yet we send bibles, and the pope condemns condoms....
their scientists are government funded.
I think they should be funded.
I mean, what's so wrong with that...?
Even though, funding isn't enough, NASA can't even fund it's neccesary and mandatory objectives.
But a pastor can say he needs some millions of dollars immediately or god is going to kill him.... and he receives it. Sigh.
reply posted on 8-10-2009 @ 10:11 AM by sirnex
reply to post by John Matrix
You can't disprove Hitler's faith in God by ignoring Hitler's faith in God.
LINK
You can't disprove the horrific acts committed by the follower's of God by ignoring the history of those followers.
You haven't disproved a thing, you've ignored it.
Hitler did not kill the Jews because of atheism or evolutionary theory, that is a total bogus flat out lie. He had faith in God and that what he was doing was God's work. That is history and just because it doesn't sit well with your own moralistic beliefs doesn't grant you the right to attempt and rewrite or ignore that history to make it sit well with yourself.
Belief in the monotheistic deity has led to countless unnecessary deaths and genocides of those who don't practice or uphold those same beliefs. No one who follows evolutionary theory has killed another human nor committed an act of genocide because of the theory or in the theories name. That domain is left entirely to your God and his followers, we want nothing to do with that garbage. So please, *please* stop trying to rewrite your own history and attempting to place it on our shoulders.
This is why we attack and belittle you folks. Constantly forcing your own actions upon non-believers. Constantly trying to dismantle any progress in knowledge out of fear of it disproving your irrational belief structure. Constantly banging on my door once a week in order to convert me. Evolutionary theory was not the cause of monotheistic violence among your population. Evolutionary theory was not the cause of Hitler killing millions of Jews. Keep your history where it belongs and learn it well as it shows the true color of the majority of God's followers. Convicts, murders and haters of everything opposing an irrational belief.
You can't disprove Hitler's faith in God by ignoring Hitler's faith in God.
LINK
You can't disprove the horrific acts committed by the follower's of God by ignoring the history of those followers.
You haven't disproved a thing, you've ignored it.
Hitler did not kill the Jews because of atheism or evolutionary theory, that is a total bogus flat out lie. He had faith in God and that what he was doing was God's work. That is history and just because it doesn't sit well with your own moralistic beliefs doesn't grant you the right to attempt and rewrite or ignore that history to make it sit well with yourself.
Belief in the monotheistic deity has led to countless unnecessary deaths and genocides of those who don't practice or uphold those same beliefs. No one who follows evolutionary theory has killed another human nor committed an act of genocide because of the theory or in the theories name. That domain is left entirely to your God and his followers, we want nothing to do with that garbage. So please, *please* stop trying to rewrite your own history and attempting to place it on our shoulders.
This is why we attack and belittle you folks. Constantly forcing your own actions upon non-believers. Constantly trying to dismantle any progress in knowledge out of fear of it disproving your irrational belief structure. Constantly banging on my door once a week in order to convert me. Evolutionary theory was not the cause of monotheistic violence among your population. Evolutionary theory was not the cause of Hitler killing millions of Jews. Keep your history where it belongs and learn it well as it shows the true color of the majority of God's followers. Convicts, murders and haters of everything opposing an irrational belief.
reply posted on 8-10-2009 @ 10:26 AM by John Matrix
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
Thanks for your response.
A true believer does not follow himself. A true believer follows Christ the Son of God. "What does than mean?", one might ask. To follow Christ and show faith in him requires one to imitate His Divine nature, which is contrary to our human nature.
What is human nature and Divine nature?
Human nature: consists of covetousness, envy, and pride....and when any one or more of those elements are contradicted, a fourth element of wrath is born. All that one does while living under the power of human nature, from birth to death, is for want of something. Human nature left to itself is a never ending feedback loop of desire continually wanting and wanting continually desiring.
God's Divine nature, as manifested in the flesh through the life, death, burial, and resurrection of the Son of God, consists of humility, patience, love, compassion, kindness, justice, mercy, truth, and all righteousness. etc.
Sure there are self seeking counterfeits to all of those elements of the Divine nature of God, but they are easy to spot because they are put on to glorify "self" and not to glorify God.
So you see....the two natures are contrary to each other. When one lives for the one nature, they deny the other.
So I see no possible compromise, and if the Bible be true, neither does God.
One can only choose to live according to the Divine nature of God by receiving a birth of It in one's soul. This is the gift of God which brings a new Love and new Life into one's soul. When God's nature becomes part of one's soul, only then is one's nature and course in life set right.
A Christian is one that lives by the Spirit and according to the Divine nature of God.
An atheist cannot live by the Spirit of God, nor can he live according to the Divine nature of God until a Supernatural birth takes place in him.
This is foolishness to the atheists.
The atheists do not accept God.
The atheist is a God unto himself.
Everyone resembles (in character and deeds) the God they understand.
IMHO
Thanks for your response.
A true believer does not follow himself. A true believer follows Christ the Son of God. "What does than mean?", one might ask. To follow Christ and show faith in him requires one to imitate His Divine nature, which is contrary to our human nature.
What is human nature and Divine nature?
Human nature: consists of covetousness, envy, and pride....and when any one or more of those elements are contradicted, a fourth element of wrath is born. All that one does while living under the power of human nature, from birth to death, is for want of something. Human nature left to itself is a never ending feedback loop of desire continually wanting and wanting continually desiring.
God's Divine nature, as manifested in the flesh through the life, death, burial, and resurrection of the Son of God, consists of humility, patience, love, compassion, kindness, justice, mercy, truth, and all righteousness. etc.
Sure there are self seeking counterfeits to all of those elements of the Divine nature of God, but they are easy to spot because they are put on to glorify "self" and not to glorify God.
So you see....the two natures are contrary to each other. When one lives for the one nature, they deny the other.
So I see no possible compromise, and if the Bible be true, neither does God.
One can only choose to live according to the Divine nature of God by receiving a birth of It in one's soul. This is the gift of God which brings a new Love and new Life into one's soul. When God's nature becomes part of one's soul, only then is one's nature and course in life set right.
A Christian is one that lives by the Spirit and according to the Divine nature of God.
An atheist cannot live by the Spirit of God, nor can he live according to the Divine nature of God until a Supernatural birth takes place in him.
This is foolishness to the atheists.
The atheists do not accept God.
The atheist is a God unto himself.
Everyone resembles (in character and deeds) the God they understand.
IMHO
reply posted on 8-10-2009 @ 10:40 AM by John Matrix
Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by John Matrix
Hitler did not kill the Jews because of atheism or evolutionary theory, that is a total bogus flat out lie.
Sigh!! Sirnex....please fix the audio on you computer and view all the videos I posted and linked to before you make comment like this...It's becoming a burden to have to keep correcting you flawed view of history and reality.
Please allow the readers to decide for themselves, rather than you deciding for them regarding what the truth is.
Pay special attantion to 4:14 into the video....and don't forget to view all 7 videos in the series.
Quoting Adolf Hitler
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things.
10th October, 1941, midday:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
21st October, 1941, midday:
Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
9th April, 1942, dinner:
There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)
27th February, 1942, midday:
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
A reader asks,"Where did the quotes from Hitler's Secret Conversations come from? How do we know that they are accurate?"
Hitler's Secret Conversations is a translation of a document called the "Bormann-Vermerke" or Borrman endorsements. They are a collection of hand written notes made by Martin Bormann who was Hitler's personal secretary during the war.
SOURCE:answers.org...
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