DHS strips Arizona sheriff of authority to patrol for illegal immigrants

Originally posted by ecoparity
The DHS deciding to revoke this agreement isn't about Sheriff Joe, it's about the Obama administration pushing an under the table amnesty program via lack of enforcement.

OK - so now we're getting down to your real reasoning.

Of course since I've lived in Arizona for 20 years and read complaints about Sheriff Joe at least monthly -- before I ever heard the name Obama. Maybe it really is about Sheriff Joe and his Gestopho tactics.

reply to post by Annee


Complaints by the ACLU and other organizations which push for amnesty of illegals? I can't imagine many legal citizens of Phoenix would have a problem with him. Doesn't he keep getting re-elected by landslides?

The media, especially the liberal leaning entities among them are pushing this issue very, very hard for one reason. Obama wants to eliminate the 287g program which allows local law enforcement to perform immigration enforcement.

I guess no one finds it ironic that for all of Sheriff Joe's sins over the past decade plus the feds refused to step in and do anything until now and only over this one, single issue.

They are using the "flammability" of Sheriff Joe to spearhead this effort to eliminate this program. If they can destroy the 287g program the duties of enforcement will revert completely back to ICE who can then be limited via policy and funding to barely perform those duties.

The 287g program was passed as a response to the poor enforcement efforts of the feds in the first place. It was a compromise to prevent the states from passing new, tougher immigration laws and assigning enforcement duties to state law enforcement. This is yet another example of states rights vs federal assertion of authority.

I've stated again and again that I don't like Sheriff Joe and he certainly has a number of issues associated with is time in office. I refuse, however to play along and be manipulated by the feds on this issue.

Unfortunately most people can't see the forest for the trees. The media will keep stirring up the liberals with claims of immigrants being abused and the progressives with allegations of racial profiling and hints of "constitutional violations". When I see the ACLU jumping on board the real goals of this little drama become quite clear.

Originally posted by stevegmu
reply to post by Annee

 

Complaints by the ACLU and other organizations which push for amnesty of illegals? I can't imagine many legal citizens of Phoenix would have a problem with him. Doesn't he keep getting re-elected by landslides?

Where have I said one bad thing about Sheriff Joe?

Like I said - - if you are an Environmentalist and invaded private property to hug a tree so it won't be cut down - - - you are using illegal tactics.

It is the same thing.

Some just want to justify it because of the illegal immigrant issue.

Laws have to apply across the board - or you cross into vigilante.

reply to post by Annee


Generally when someone says another employs 'Gestapo tactics' it is negative. Perhaps you have forgotten what you have written?

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by ecoparity
The DHS deciding to revoke this agreement isn't about Sheriff Joe, it's about the Obama administration pushing an under the table amnesty program via lack of enforcement.

OK - so now we're getting down to your real reasoning.

And what would that be? That's twice now you've dropped some vague accusation without clarification. I don't think you seem to know when it's time to quit. You're just debating for the sake of fighting even though your making a very, very poor representation of yourself by doing so.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by stevegmu
reply to post by Annee

 

Complaints by the ACLU and other organizations which push for amnesty of illegals? I can't imagine many legal citizens of Phoenix would have a problem with him. Doesn't he keep getting re-elected by landslides?

Where have I said one bad thing about Sheriff Joe?

Like I said - - if you are an Environmentalist and invaded private property to hug a tree so it won't be cut down - - - you are using illegal tactics.

It is the same thing.

Some just want to justify it because of the illegal immigrant issue.

Laws have to apply across the board - or you cross into vigilante.

How is it illegal?????

I've shown you, using the ACLU website that he had legal authority from the feds to perform immigration enforcement including a specific clause for "street sweeps".

The only whisper about any possible misuse of authority is the Justice Department stating they are looking into an investigation for "racial profiling".

I'll save you some time. There will be no investigation. If by some weird twist of fate there is it will go nowhere.

I don't even really care about the street sweeps. I think they managed to capture all of 300 illegal aliens in them but if the local Sheriff isn't doing them then ICE will. I'd prefer locals over the feds in that instance but to each his own.

Even without the street sweeps the jail checks for residence status catch the most and those won't be going anywhere. In a year and a half 30,000 criminals arrested were found to be illegal aliens.

I know you love the illegals and all that but 30,000 criminals? That's a crime wave on feet. And that's just one county in this big nation.

Hopefully you won't be one of the next victims of this army of illegal alien criminals. Since you don't seem to care about your fellow Americans maybe that's what it would take for you start waking up.

Originally posted by stevegmu
reply to post by Annee

 

Generally when someone says another employs 'Gestapo tactics' it is negative. Perhaps you have forgotten what you have written?

Not at all.

Gestapo tactics is an action. I am speaking of the action - - which would apply to any person.

In this case it happens to be Sheriff Joe who "borders" on vigilantism -- by taking the law into his own hands - - beyond what is legally acceptable.

You can't justify something just because it is distasteful to you. Such as illegal aliens. You still have to stay within the law.

Sheriff Joe definitely "pushes" the law.

reply to post by Annee


Yes, but you applied the tactics o him. I'm sure many of the Obamaites would have a fit if one said he was governing by using Hitler-like tactics.


Perhaps you can point me to the federal indictment against J. Arpaio? You have accused him of breaking the law. If such is the case, surely he would have been charged.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by stevegmu
reply to post by Annee

 

Generally when someone says another employs 'Gestapo tactics' it is negative. Perhaps you have forgotten what you have written?

Not at all.

Gestapo tactics is an action. I am speaking of the action - - which would apply to any person.

In this case it happens to be Sheriff Joe who "borders" on vigilantism -- by taking the law into his own hands - - beyond what is legally acceptable.

You can't justify something just because it is distasteful to you. Such as illegal aliens. You still have to stay within the law.

Sheriff Joe definitely "pushes" the law.

Are you physically spinning around in circles? I'm just trying to figure out why your arguments just keep swirling around and back again.

Stevegmu called you out on your "Gestapo" terminology so you fly back around to using "vigilante". I just find it amazing how people learn to use propaganda tactics by observation. I mean, you could be an agent for the left wing but I find it very unlikely based on the overall quality of your debating.

I've already shown you, numerous times why its impossible for the Sheriff to be acting as a vigilante in this case. Switching to "bordering on vigilantism" is just switch hitting using the same buzz word.

That's what I find most interesting, your inability to form an argument without coming back to the same buzz words again and again even after being proven to be incorrect in their use.

Every post contains some hint about the other poster's character now. Why can't you just come out and say it? You know you're dying to drop the race bomb, at least I can see it there, compressed in your mind, just barely sticking out into your posts.

It's like the dark side of the force for liberals now. They just can't help but throw it around like a wild punch in a street fight. C'mon, ANeeee. Its your destiny, feel the power of the dark side and use the "race bomb".


[edit on 12-10-2009 by ecoparity]

I've spent the evening reading through close to two years worth of documentation related to the Maricopa County MOA program with ICE from its inception in 2007 until now.

This documentation included status reports sent from the Sheriff's office to ICE detailing all immigration enforcement activities and in depth documentation related to several "street sweeps" which are not checkpoints as some on this thread have tried to assert but are simply 48 hour periods of increased law enforcement officers assigned to specific areas.

This documentation includes internal emails related to the one lawsuit which brought about the modification of the MOA by ICE and all the press / media attention that resulted. These emails are between the Sheriff, deputies / jailers and ICE personnel.

Let's clear some things up and address some of the lies being told:

1. Only a certain number of officers are able to participate as 287g "immigration officers" under the program. These officers must all have two years law enforcement experience and have to attend ICE training, the same training given to ICE immigration agents.

2. There is not one single report of checkpoints being used under the program. Every single arrest made under 287g is documented and all were either traffic stops or arrests made during the investigation of crimes. The remaining immigration arrests were warrant service incidents where ICE immigration deportation warrants were issued to the Sheriff's office to serve.

There is not a single raid of a business or home listed in the incident reports. The only incidents where homes were searched involved arrest warrants or investigations of human smuggling where one or more of the immigrants caught gave the deputies the location of "drop houses" - locations where illegal aliens being smuggled are kept prior to loading up for delivery to final destinations.

3. A lawsuit filed by one person alleges "racial profiling" and was the impetus (convenient excuse) for ICE to propose modifying the 287g program and the Justice Dept claiming they are examining an investigation into the person's allegation.

According to the arrest report, this individual was stopped for non-working headlights. When asked for his ID he claimed he did not have one and asked the officer "are you going to deport me?".

The individual was arrested and taken for ICE verification. After being placed under arrest he admitted to having an ID and being a legal resident of the US. At this point he was already under arrest for failure to provide ID and had to be taken to the jail. He was processed and released but claims certain jailers "made fun of his accent".

The lawsuit is a pretty obvious setup. The person involved is a community activist and anti-immigration enforcement activist and a former Justice of the Peace candidate for election. His lawsuit was immediately filed by a team of D.C. lawyers working with his Arizona lawyer and the ACLU.

Based on the internal emails from the Sheriff's department I don't see any indication this person was "racially profiled". I find it very obvious he set out to be stopped and arrested by driving after dark without headlights and then refusing to provide his driver's license. His comment of "are you going to deport me" is a clear attempt to raise suspicion with the officer over his immigration / residency status.

4. A clear majority of the arrest made involving illegal aliens were for state law violations, namely drugs, thefts, assaults and so on. Quite a few "coyotes" were arrested during the sweeps, several of whom had been arrested for human smuggling in the past and turned over to ICE for deportation.

The government may get its way and use this incident as an excuse to end the 287g program nation wide but its based on very thin accusations. They're going to have to continue filling the media up with disinfo and stirring up people's hatred of the Sheriff, the lawsuit on its own will almost surely fail.

383 pages of documents - pdf format from ICE

[edit on 12-10-2009 by ecoparity]

Let's Simplify - because it is what I do. Let's throw out all the garbage and get to the bottom of the can.

Under the Bush administration Sheriff Joe was given authority beyond his position as Sheriff.

Under the Obama administration Sheriff Joe's position of authority in illegal immigration beyond that of Sheriff was rescinded.

He is back to being Sheriff - - as it should be.

It is not I who is referring to Sheriff Joe's tactics as Gestapho. As previously stated I live in Arizona and read local news and discussion threads. Here is one - where a poster on the thread refers to Gesapho tactics. (I posted the thread - not the individuals post).

Sheriff Joe Arpaio has the FEDS SNOWED up to their eyeballs

groups.google.co.zm...


[edit on 12-10-2009 by Annee]

Originally posted by Annee
Let's Simplify - because it is what I do. Let's throw out all the garbage and get to the bottom of the can.

Under the Bush administration Sheriff Joe was given authority beyond his position as Sheriff.

Under the Obama administration Sheriff Joe's position of authority in illegal immigration beyond that of Sheriff was rescinded.

He is back to being Sheriff - - as it should be.

Once again your version of simplification is to return to presenting completely false information.

For starters, you don't seem to have a clue what powers the office of Sheriff has. Here's a decent summary for you to educate yourself:

Summary of the Constitutional role of Sheriff

Fortunately, our system of government gives the power to the County Sheriff to either ignore or enforce Federal law. The President of the United States cannot tell the County Sheriff what to do in his own county. Neither can Congress. Neither can the Supreme Court. The County Sheriff is not the Gestapo of the federal government. Quite the opposite. The County Sheriff is elected by the people - not employed by any branch of the government. He takes an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States. Therefore his loyalty is towards protecting freedom. Ultimately, the County Sheriff is the check to balance any overreaching authority of the federal government. He decides which laws are Constitutional and will be enforced and which laws violate his citizens' rights and will be ignored. And for the choices he makes, he will answer directly to the citizens of his county - not the federal government.

So far you've accused the Maricopa County Sheriff's office of overstepping
their jurisdiction and acting as "vigilantes" which I've clearly countered by informing you about the 287g program, even posting a copy of the "grant of authority" in the 383 pages of material from ICE obtained via FOIA request.

This is why debating an issue based on a couple of liberal media sources is making you look like a complete fool. Your jumping in to fight about this issue with absolutely no knowledge of the material.

You just don't seem to know when it's time to walk away. Oh well, its your reputation and level of knowledge that's being destroyed. I've given you all the material you could possibly need to fully research the issue, if you don't care to do so then that's your problem but I for one would appreciate it if you would stop posting false and misleading information.

ETA:
And, just to be clear; the Sheriff has the authority to enforce immigration law and any other federal law or not enforce them as he sees fit. That's with or without a contract with ICE.

The 287g program (which is in effect with Sheriffs all across America, by the way) is simply an integration program. It provided full training and certification as immigration agents for the deputies chosen to participate and gave them access to ICE's computer system and databases.

Even without 287g or a modified version of it in this case, the Sheriff can continue to enforce immigration laws as he sees fit. In fact, in this case it will probably be more effective since he will be handling deportation rather than handing detainees over to ICE so they can release them back into the community.

Local law enforcement can arrest you for violating federal laws as well as state laws. The only question is who will handle the prosecution at trial.

[edit on 12-10-2009 by ecoparity]

Not only do they not know what a abilities a sheriff posseses. But they probably don't even know what 'Gestapo' is.

(They probably think it's some type of yogurt.)

(For those of you who don't know truly? Gestapo is a contraction of "Geheime Staatz Polizei". Or "Secret State Police.")

reply to post by ecoparity


YOU are CHOOSING the information you want to use in this discussion.

I know - if I research I will find opposing information - OR information with a different point of view.

Then we can have a "document" stand off. How thrilling."
-------------------------------------

Instead of making this about "Profiling is unconstitutional".

You want to make this another YAWN - Liberal vs "Real Americans".

Not Interested. Done. Moving on.

Originally posted by Marked One

(For those of you who don't know truly? Gestapo is a contraction of "Geheime Staatz Polizei". Or "Secret State Police.")

Many Words & Terms - - are adopted in language to apply to certain criteria. (I don't need a history lesson)

# gestapo Of, relating to, or characteristic of terroristic police methods or operations: gestapo tactics.

Just to make it absolutely clear - - I am not lost or trying to steer the main focus of the original article - - here is an excerpt:

The Department of Justice and other federal agencies are investigating the sheriff’s office on accusations of racial profiling during the operations, the paper says.

Yes - Sheriff Joe is claiming its political.

Originally posted by Annee
reply to post by ecoparity

 

YOU are CHOOSING the information you want to use in this discussion.

I know - if I research I will find opposing information - OR information with a different point of view.

Then we can have a "document" stand off. How thrilling."
-------------------------------------

Instead of making this about "Profiling is unconstitutional".

You want to make this another YAWN - Liberal vs "Real Americans".

Not Interested. Done. Moving on.

More baseless accusations and lies. I've given you 383 pages of material which makes up the entire ICE case against the Sheriff but I'm the one trying to deflect the debate?

Please....

I've given you numerous sources and the one single reference you've posted is a link to another discussion forum? It must be nice to live in a world of complete and total fiction.

There have to be countless threads on ATS in need of some left wing diversion and fiction so please, move on but don't think for a minute everyone doesn't see right through your BS.

This isn't about racial profiling, its about the government choosing to protect illegal immigration. There have been groups complaining to the feds for years about the Sheriff for all kinds of stuff, including "racial profiling". They've never lifted a finger until the issue becomes one of illegal aliens getting deported. There's two years worth of case history and reports, I wasn't able to find a single credible instance of racial profiling in there.

If you want to have a debate about "racial profiling" then start a new thread and let's get it on. I've heard about all I can take of that complete and total BS in the past week. The only people who take that crap seriously are criminals, the few non criminals who blame racism for everything bad in the World and certain liberals who live in a vacuum with no connection to reality.

reply to post by Annee


Well the man's not an idiot, it is political. Who wrote letters to the justice department asking for the end of 287g in Maricopa County?

Oh, wow - they all happen to be political opponents. I never would have guessed.

The one complaint with a lawsuit was filed by a community activist who tried to set up the County and failed. I've read the reports ICE is using to build it's case - there's nothing there.

This is all political. If the feds want to do something about corruption in Maricopa County they have had and still have plenty of material to work with. Instead they use a BS case to justify trying to end immigration enforcement there. I might not believe it if it wasn't for the long and well proven history of the feds protecting and enabling illegal immigration.

What's really ironic is how the election of Obama suddenly makes the Justice Dept and ICE and all the other feds involved "the good guys".

Hey, congrats on being just as politically narrow minded and brain washed as the Neo-cons were. It's the party loyalists like you folks who have destroyed this country.