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Hans: so you have fallen for my clever trap have you, muhahaha, so Scot you agree then. What it is measured in is immaterial. Therefore the length of the line is also immaterial...correct? ....we'll come back to that.
SC: The Earth's polar axis will change to another location. It has occurred in the past and there is little reason why such cannot occur again.
Hans: So if that doesn't happen on 2012 does that mean your idea is falsified ...
Hans: Predicting something that will happen at some point in the future is terrible predictive? Kinda of a waste of time.
Hans: So lets say the guys-who-aren't-Atlanteans want to send (for whatever reason) a message to the future. What would work better. Sent a single "hard copy" plan that requires massive building thousands of years after the hard copy is produced - in a society that doesn't even exist yet - you just hope it will develop that capacity to built.
You also hope they will built it, not screw it up and that in thousands of years until somebody smart enough comes along who can see its AND hope that nature or man doesn't take out some critical part of it? Would you say that was the plan?
Hans: Why not use pottery, and make zillions of them and spread them across the entire planet, place them on top of inaccessible mountains, place them with radioactives so they will be detected, put them everywhere. Have on it a representation of the start and stop date and the line with an indication of what will happen. Take a look Scot at the type of detail you can be put into pottery. A lot easier than your idea don't you think? Virtually impossible to destroy all of them and the point of the exercise is shown in full color.
Hans: Ah I see Madam Byrd posted at the same time, so I'm deleting some of the same materials
SC: There is no doubt in my mind about this.
Hans: Yet again we remind you that is of no importance. Except for publicly stating, once again, that your mind is closed to any evidence against your idea.
Hans: So if that doesn't happen on 2012 does that mean your idea is falsified
SC: ..... I can clearly demonstrate to you is that the structures at Giza conform to a unified design based upon Orion's belt and its 2 culminations.
One earthquake and your zillions (whatever that is) of pots are smashed asunder.
SC: I guess someone has to come in and try and save your ass.
SC: “Closed to any evidence against [my] idea.” Care to cite such? Are we talking about the Hall of Ma'at again. Hans? If so then once again, let me offer you some advice, Hans – don't get yourself into something you haven't a snowball's chance in hell of ever finishing.
SC: There is no doubt in my mind about this
HANS: Why not use pottery, and make zillions of them and spread them across the entire planet, place them on top of inaccessible mountains, place them with radioactives so they will be detected, put them everywhere. Have on it a representation of the start and stop date and the line with an indication of what will happen. Take a look Scot at the type of detail you can be put into pottery. A lot easier than your idea don't you think? Virtually impossible to destroy all of them and the point of the exercise is shown in full color.
BYRD: There's no reason for the ancient Egyptians to be concerned about 2012, when a far greater concern to them was the final conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great, the conquest of Egypt by Rome following the death of Cleopatra VII, the invasion of the Sea People, the breakdown of Egypt during the First Intermediate period (200 + years after the building of the main structures of Giza), the Hyksos invasion (capturing Egypt) about a thousand years after Giza, the fracturing of the Kingdom and the rise of the Nubian kings, the Assyrian invasion... and so forth.
Those are things they would have wanted their people warned about (and droughts and some of the plagues that swept through the area).
The idea that the designers of Giza would ignore important events relating to the land (or global ones like world wars) to encode a prediction involving a calendar that wouldn't be created for almost 3,000 years (by a civilization that failed to predict its own collapse) -- a flag that would promote a concept created within the past 40 years doesn't seem to make much sense.
Why then, Byrd, would you invoke the idea that any astronomical timeline encoded into the arrangement of the Giza plateau would be focused on predicting future events of mankind's making?
Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
HANS: Why not use pottery, and make zillions of them and spread them across the entire planet, place them on top of inaccessible mountains, place them with radioactives so they will be detected, put them everywhere. Have on it a representation of the start and stop date and the line with an indication of what will happen. Take a look Scot at the type of detail you can be put into pottery. A lot easier than your idea don't you think? Virtually impossible to destroy all of them and the point of the exercise is shown in full color.
This is quite frankly one of the dumber comments I've yet read in this forum. Does anyone honestly think the Pharaohs, or any ancient rulers, would have sought to preserve their mighty legacy in the cast-off shards of pottery - as opposed to the erection of imposing monuments?
They could never have conceived of a long-off future where a profession such as archeology would be able to reconstruct time lines and attempt to piece together the puzzle of history from such detritus. They were building for their own generation, as well. Can you imagine Pharaoh impressing his followers (or for that matter, Hittites, Nubians, Sumerians, Akkadians) with his "fields of pottery shards"? I especially liked the "radioactive" pottery shards, that ought to keep away those pesky pottery-shard robbers.
Scott is making a case that the Giza plateau is a timeline of celestial events in particular to those pertaining to the precessional cycle of the earth.
Why then, Byrd, would you invoke the idea that any astronomical timeline encoded into the arranrgement of the Giza plateau would be focused on predicting future events of mankind's making?
2012 is a noteworthy event from a purely astronomical aspect, the alignment of the solstice with the galactic equator, and an event that would likely be deemed worthy of noting.
Originally posted by Byrd
But it's not terribly accurate. The Mayans and Greeks and others who encoded this (literate civilizations) also left us their instruments and writings and calculations. The idea of spending 100 or more years (and incalculable wealth) in building something to reflect a precession of stars that weren't a major part of the religion and culture seems very off-kilter.
If that is what they meant and if it had been important to them, it would have been part of the Book of the Underworld, shown in paintings and texts on the walls of tombs, and on coffins. Instead we have very little mention of Orion/Sah (and it was seen as two constellations, no tone) in the occasional pyramid text... and their maps of the heavens were ... well... "inaccurate".
This is quite frankly one of the dumber comments I've yet read in this forum. Does anyone honestly think the Pharaohs, or any ancient rulers, would have sought to preserve their mighty legacy in the cast-off shards of pottery
The pottery would be a completely superior idea to convey an idea to the future while the pyramid one is fraught with dangers and just not being completed.
SC: This is completely meaningless. How exactly do you present 3-dimensional objects in space on a 2-dimensional plane? Float pyramids in the air? Is that what you are suggesting? The designers of this scheme have done a pretty darn good job of transposing 3-D space to the 2-D plane of Giza.
Byrd: They got it backwards, and they didn't put in the other stars.
Byrd: And you have to manipulate the photo a bit to get the stars in the right spot... and it's only for current conditions. We can do a better job with modern star maps -- so if you're postulating this is an "ancient designer" and that they were far more sophisticated than us, you have to show that their design is better.
Byrd: For instance, that the apexes of the pyramids also show the relative positions in 3-D space (they don't.)
SC: The belt stars are presented at minimum culmination via the 3 horizontal Queens Pyramids of Menkaure
Byrd: ...but they don't match up to the alignment of the stars.
SC: If we consider the three lines in the diagrams above as horizon indicators then this scheme tells us that the three queens of Menkare are symbolic of the three stars as the stars set on the horizon.
Byrd: They actually don't appear to be part of his pyramid complex.
SC: I don't recall Tungaska 'moving the heavens' (i.e. tilting the Earth). It remains my view that the shafts of the Great Pyramid demonstrate a 6.5* shift of the Earth's polar axis. Such an event would surely have imprinted itself upon the minds of generations.
Byrd: Do you have any evidence to support this other than "it remains my view"?
”And in those days, Noah saw the Earth had tilted and that its destruction was near.” - (Book of Noah 65.1)
Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. - (Book of Isaiah 24:1, 24:20)
Byrd: Are we talking sudden shift? Gradual shift? It sounds like you're talking a "sudden shift"... but I'm not sure that you have correctly calculated the physics of such a shift.
Byrd: And I don't think you understand the scale of "stellar body." Stars aren't points of light -- they're sun-sized objects,...
SC: When I gaze at the night sky I don't see sun-sized objects – I see points of light. That's most likely also what the ancients saw.
Byrd: In that section you were talking about "stellar bodies" (i.e., stars) near or in the solar system …
Byrd: ….the largest of which are hundreds of times larger than our own sun. One of them heading for us would be hard to miss (unless you were blind) -- in fact, by now it would be as bright as our own sun. The only way it could "sneak up on us" for 2012 is for it to be equipped with warp drive.
SC: Who said anything about an object “as bright as our own sun” that would “...sneak up on us...”? You seem to have the impression that only a massive object can cause the Earth to alter its polar axis. Not so. A relatively small asteroid can do it.
Byrd: You were referring to "stellar bodies" in that section of the discussion, Scott.
Byrd: Any "stellar body" (sun) is a bright shining object. And the impact of an object on a moving object is to change the direction of the object. While massive earthquakes can affect the tilt of the Earth very slightly, anything that moves it a full six degrees is going to leave a lot of geological evidence.
SC: We're not talking about “cumulations” in space. We're talking about “culminations” on the horizon as observed from 30*N latitude of the Earth.
Byrd: How did they know it was a culmination of anything? That implies a long period of observation.
SC: And if we want to register/record time greater than 1 year? We have to create an arbitrary “line in the sand” e.g. the birth of some deity or other and keep counting the years. Precession gives us a longer-term natural calendar for the measurement/recording of long periods of time – 12,960 Earth suns.
Byrd: Actually, it's 25,765 years. (full (and probably boring) details here: 2012wiki.com...)
Byrd: Could you show me where the ancestors of the AE's had accurate observatories?
SC: I think Stonehenge, Newgrange, Nabta Playa all predate the pyramids. Who knows – there may have been many more such megalithic 'observatories' around the Earth that have long since fallen into ruin. All that's needed are two poles in the ground to register an alignment with a star on the horizon. It's not complicated.
Byrd: That would be "no (and not by Egyptians)", "yes but not by Egyptians", and "yes, but you can't determine precession from it." They're not accurate observatories by Egyptian ancestors.
SC: The Sphinx was evidently (according to archaeologist, Colin Reader) in place BEFORE the Gizamids.
Byrd: He's a geologist. Not an archaeologist. en.wikipedia.org...
Byrd: I'd trust him to know how to find out the composition of sediments and geologic layers…
” Under the conventional sequence of development, "Khafre's" causeway (and the Sphinx), were undeveloped at the time of Khufu's quarrying. If this sequence is correct, why should the extent of the quarrying have been limited by a feature (the causeway) that was not developed until sometime after Khufu's reign? The conventional sequence of development requires us to accept that Khufu's workmen went to the trouble of opening up a second quarry to the south of the causeway, rather than remove a linear body of rock which, at the time, served no apparent purpose. […] When considered in terms of the hydrology of the site, the distribution of degradation within the Sphinx enclosure indicates that the excavation of the Sphinx and the original construction of the Sphinx temple, pre-date Khufu's early Fourth Dynasty development at Giza. The spatial relationships between "Khafre's" causeway, the Sphinx and Khufu's quarries provides additional evidence that the causeway and the Sphinx were constructed some time before Khufu's quarrying began. “
Khufu Knew the Sphinx
You both appear to be using rather illogical arguments to pick away at his ideas. For instance, Hans, If you wanted to ridicule the idea of using monuments to convey a message then why would the Egyptians have bothered carving massive obelisks?
Stonehenge is another example of "why build big"? when surely a much smaller layout could just as easily have worked. Yet, they didn't...
SC: Now, as stated, the Sphinx (the so-called 'Place of the First Time' - from the Dream Stellae)
Byrd: Minor correction, here... the Dream Stele does not say that the Sphynx is the "place of the first time" but does indicate that the Giza plateau is.
SC: That's a matter of interpretation. I take the view that the very location of the Dream Stellae i.e. between the paws of the Sphinx is doing what precisely it says its doing – marking the place of the First Time.
Byrd: Scott, it's not interpretation. If you can read the stelae, it very CLEARLY says that the Giza plateau is the "place of the first time." Not the sphynx.
SC: The name “Kepher-Ra” but not in a cartouche. Just curious - why would the writers of this stellae – some thousand years after the reign of its alleged builder, Khafre – not place the name of the King within a cartouche which was clearly in use by the reign of Khafre?
Kepher-ra is a god, not a pharaoh. Pharaoh's names were put in cartouches during the time of Sneferu and replaced the earlier serekh (god house.) The names of gods are followed by a determinative sign that means 'god' (and often preceeded by a sign indicating a standard or flag.) If you look at a picture of the stelae, the king's name is in the cartouche.
en.wikipedia.org...:ReproductionOfDreamSteleOfThutmoseIV-CloseUp_RosicrucianEgyptianMuseum.png
(reading right to left we have the Golden Horus name (that I can't make out), "nesu-bity" (king of upper and lower Egypt) followed by the year of his reign and Menkepherure (his throne name) Thutmose (nomen), both in cartouches)
The god's name is on the second line, preceeded by the designator for "male deity"... very badly worn but can be seen here if you know what you're looking at:
heartofthebear.com...&CC.JPG
SC: The AEs of the 4th Dynasty implemented a plan. They scaled-up a plan using a center line or grid method. It's really not that difficult and you do not require line of sight for the entire plateau. It has been shown that such simple methods could have worked to create the Nazca lines. No big shakes here.
Byrd: Except that a) you have to be able to make accurate maps and b) the Nazca lines are all line of sight (very flat area.)
SC: Our civilisation is presently charting the imminent arrival of the small red planet, Sedna, to our neighbourhood which, interestingly, has an orbit that corresponds very well with the duration between the two dates in the precessional axis – some 11,712 years.
Byrd: When did Sedna leave its orbital path and why aren't amateur astronomers everywhere excited about this?
(snip)
SC: Offered only as an example to show how little we know of 'what's out there'. Sedna was discovered only 7 years ago! What else might we have missed?
Uhmmm... no. You didn't offer it as that. You stated that Sedna is coming to our section of the solar system in 2012 and indicated it was related to your diagrams.
SC: I think it is also obvious to everyone reading this that the two dates presented (c.9,700BCE & c.2,012CE) are 'notable' dates. Is it all just one big coinicidence?
I sincerely hope so.
Byrd: It is. Sedna isn't coming towards Earth.
I can cite only the eye-witness accounts from some of our most ancient texts that tell us in quite clear terms that the Earth’s axis shifted
Byrd: Scott, it's not interpretation. If you can read the stelae, it very CLEARLY says that the Giza plateau is the "place of the first time." Not the sphynx.
SC: I stand by my interpretation. The Stellae/Sphinx mark a unique point on the circle - the anchor or callibrating point from which the other two points beyond the timeline (Lehner Line) are connected.
Originally posted by Hanslune
So Scott explain to me why the guys-who-weren't-Atlanteans would use your highly complex method, full of possible natural or man made fail points instead of the simple pottery route. Why would anyone?
I've noted that your images switch perspective making it difficult to understand. In particular Scott Sacharczyt's diagram goes one way, with Menkaure at the SW
The next diagram rotates the pyramids so Menkaure is at the NE
This makes it difficult to see what you are talking about. I would suggest you put the two into one. So we can see how your off set claim works. As near as I can tell is that the 'correction' is in the wrong direction but I'm sure you can correct that with a properly built diagram.
SC: I can cite only the eye-witness accounts from some of our most ancient texts that tell us in quite clear terms that the Earth’s axis shifted
Hans: Then why isn't this confirmed in the magnetic orientation of of lava flows?
Byrd: Scott, it's not interpretation. If you can read the stelae, it very CLEARLY says that the Giza plateau is the "place of the first time." Not the sphynx.
SC: I stand by my interpretation. The Stellae/Sphinx mark a unique point on the circle - the anchor or callibrating point from which the other two points beyond the timeline (Lehner Line) are connected.
Hans: So Scott why don't you show us the translation of the stelae and show us how Byrd is wrong?
Hans: Also those lines of yours can easily come from the top of the great pyramid or pretty much anywhere you want as long as they touch the line where you want them to touch? Why does it have to come from the stelae?
Hans: Gee Scott could you show us something on the Giza plateau that IS a coincidence -
Hans: Scott could you list the assumptions you need to make to arrive at...well whatever it is you think the circle says or the line. How many assumptions for someone to get to the message - which you yourself cannot determine.
Hans: Possibility doesn't mean plausibility Scott.
Hans: So Scott explain to me why the guys-who-weren't-Atlanteans would use your highly complex method, full of possible natural or man made fail points instead of the simple pottery route. Why would anyone?
Originally posted by Harte
Originally posted by Hanslune
So Scott explain to me why the guys-who-weren't-Atlanteans would use your highly complex method, full of possible natural or man made fail points instead of the simple pottery route. Why would anyone?
Hans,
I've already gone you one better:
Why would they leave such a record at all? A record of ... what?
A record that they knew the approximate date when we could all look forward to dying a horrible death as the Earth rolls over?
Why? To mock us?
Please, the entire basis is complete and total baloney. Even if the 2012 date had any significance (and it doesn't,) what's the point of leaving this message (although there really isn't one)?
Harte
SC: I do try – when I remember – to place a North indicator in my drawings. I can't, however speak for others. The Great Pyramid of Khufu is the most northerly of the three main Gizamids so if you keep this in mind it will help you keep orientation. Hope this helps.
SC: Is it not? Can you present the paper that CONCLUSIVELY demonstrates this - I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
SC: Byrd has a good memory but, so far as I can see, not a particularly logical mind. Follow the logic,
SC: Not the Stellae – the Sphinx! The Stellae merely corroborates the Sphinx as the point of origin, the callibration point from whence to 'mark time'.
The Sphinx stands as the single most unique point in the Giza Pyramid field. It is the most obvious point to anchor the 'time pendulum'.
SC: Why should I? That's YOUR job, is it not?
SC: Assumptions? Well – let's look at those. Am I assuming there is a (theoretical) near 45* line delineated at Giza by the placement of a number of structures there? No – it's FACT.
Am I assuming that there is a theoretical circle that touches 4 significant points (thereby HAS to be intentional)? No, - it's a FACT?
Am I assuming that the belt stars of the Orion constellation can define the base dimensions and placement of the Gizamids? No – it's a FACT.
Am I assuming that the 2 sets of Queens depict the 2 culminations of the Belt Stars? No – it's a FACT.
SC: We're not, however, dealing with possibilities here – we're dealing with FACTS.
Okay – point one. You suggested making zillions of pots
(I presume with some depiction of the Belt Stars/Giza-Orion Blueprint??) and distributing these all over the ancient world , tops of mountains and so forth, bla, bla, bla - yes?
Wrong. The message is of an astronomical/mathematical nature and will ONLY make sense at 30*N latitude.
Furthermore, this 'calendar' requires physical structures to be aligned to a particular star on a particular date i.e.
to have physical structures embeded in the ground permanently aligned to 212* azimuth, 30*N latitude.
Somehow I don't think the last surviving wee pot (after all them earthquakes, wars, invasions, vandalism bla, bla) on Zahi's bedside cabinet depicting the belt stars will quite have the desired effect or indeed even remotely impart what we need to be told.
Especially if it is not even orientated to 212* azimuth! And what if he lives in Alexandira. This is too much! I feel a fever coming on!
Oh but wait - on second thoughts I suppose the builders could actually have constructed 3 giant POTS at Giza rather than 3 giant PYRAMIDS?
SC: I do try – when I remember – to place a North indicator in my drawings. I can't, however speak for others. The Great Pyramid of Khufu is the most northerly of the three main Gizamids so if you keep this in mind it will help you keep orientation. Hope this helps.
Hans: It would appear Scott that you are deliberately using different orientation of the maps to confuse people.
Hans: You might want to relook that map. It’s like you don’t want people to really understand-just believe what you tell them. I suggest again you put your idea into a readily understandable format because as near as I can tell with your poorly presented maps what you say happens doesn’t. Show me please that I’m wrong.
Originally posted by Scott Creighton
Hans: You might want to relook that map. It’s like you don’t want people to really understand-just believe what you tell them. I suggest again you put your idea into a readily understandable format because as near as I can tell with your poorly presented maps what you say happens doesn’t. Show me please that I’m wrong.
SC: You want ME to show you that you’re wrong? I really don’t have to – you do a pretty good job of that all on your own. Look through this thread, Hans. Why do you think it is that there are other people posting in this thread who totally understand the orientations of the various drawings presented? Why is it only YOU that is having a problem with this?
Originally posted by Scott Creighton
Now - since you are doubting the veracity of my work and hinting at scurrilous motives on my part then it has now become abundantly clear that there is little I will be able to say or do here to convince you of the authenticity of my findings. So, on that basis, the only acceptable way forward I can see is that you obtain a copy of the hi-resolution Giza Plateau Mapping Project map of Giza yourself and see if you can (or cannot) replicate my findings.
SC: Now - since you are doubting the veracity of my work and hinting at scurrilous motives on my part then it has now become abundantly clear that there is little I will be able to say or do here to convince you of the authenticity of my findings. So, on that basis, the only acceptable way forward I can see is that you obtain a copy of the hi-resolution Giza Plateau Mapping Project map of Giza yourself and see if you can (or cannot) replicate my findings.
Harte: In other words, draw a line that connects a handful of points that Hans can choose from a multitude of available points and then see if a circle can be made that incorporates a handful of other points that Hans can also choose from a multitude of available points?