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Originally posted by eclectic.thoughts
I have a questions though and it seems that everyone is convinced the end of the Mayan Calender is 21st December 2012.
But Dr Johan Calleman has calculated that actually end date is the 28th October 2011.
Originally posted by Scott Creighton
Hello ATS,
Here is my latest research into the structures at Giza. The presentation below (in Powerpoint format) is self-explanatory.
It seems the Mayan calander end-date of 2,012 CE is a date also being indicated by the Ancient Egyptians in the structures at Giza:
SC: Here is my latest research into the structures at Giza. The presentation below (in Powerpoint format) is self-explanatory.
It seems the Mayan calendar end-date of 2,012 CE is a date also being indicated by the Ancient Egyptians in the structures at Giza:
Byrd: I don't think your evidence supports this, Scott. It would be astonishing that the Ancient Egyptians fail to predict all the major events that shook their civilizations, failed to predict major Earth events... but somehow get "2012"?
Byrd: They had no way of writing "2012" (before they finally fell under Muslim rule, they numbered years by the name of the ruler and the year of their reign.)
Byrd: They didn't note the beginning of the "Long Count" or any other Mayan concepts. They didn't even measure the cycles of Venus or the precession of the equinoxes (which the Mayans did).
Byrd: I think you could draw lines through any groups of points on the plateau (there are so many) ….
Byrd: There's no reason for the ancient Egyptians to be concerned about 2012, when a far greater concern to them was the final conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great, the conquest of Egypt by Rome following the death of Cleopatra VII, the invasion of the Sea People, the breakdown of Egypt during the First Intermediate period (200 + years after the building of the main structures of Giza), the Hyksos invasion (capturing Egypt) about a thousand years after Giza, the fracturing of the Kingdom and the rise of the Nubian kings, the Assyrian invasion... and so forth.
Those are things they would have wanted their people warned about (and droughts and some of the plagues that swept through the area).
Byrd: The idea that the designers of Giza would ignore important events relating to the land (or global ones like world wars) to encode a prediction involving a calendar that wouldn't be created for almost 3,000 years (by a civilization that failed to predict its own collapse) -- a flag that would promote a concept created within the past 40 years doesn't seem to make much sense.
Originally posted by Scott Creighton
But this precession clock is not about predicting the actions of MEN, rather it is more likely about predicting the actions of cosmic bodies.
If they can demonstrate to us at Giza via the placement of the 2 sets of so-called 'Queens Pyramids', the culminations of the belt stars over some 12,960 years then predicting the return of some other (as yet unknown) stellar body should be within their capabilities.
I am saying that if we take the Lehner Line as the half-precession axis of 12,960 years then year 1 corresponds with the minimum culmination of the belt stars of Orion c.10,460BCE (as depicted by the Menkaure Queens).
tellar culmination event of the belt stars, some major event occurred on the Earth. We can say then that c.760 AOC (After Orion Culmination) this event took place. Similarly, in the year c.12,472 AOC another event may take place. It so happens that these two dates c.760 AOC & c.12,472 AOC correspond with c.9,700BCE & c.2,012 CE respectively of the Christian calendar. However, the one true calendar is the apparent precessional motion of the stars.
SC: They don't have to measure such. They just need to understand precession which, from the evidence I have uncovered, leads me to conclude that they did understand such. And when I say 'they' I mean the ancestors of the AEs of the Dynastic Period.
Unless, of course, you happen to consider that the Sphinx somehow magically happens to find itself sitting precisely on the very edge of that (theoretical) circle is simple happenstance.
Now, as stated, the Sphinx (the so-called 'Place of the First Time' - from the Dream Stellae)
... is quite different from the Pyramids but is somehow 'connected' to them – this is to repeat the fact the Sphinx is aligned precisely midway along the 'Lehner Line'. Also, the Sphinx is carved from the physical bedrock of the plateau and, therefore, is not easily removed. This is important because as a 'point of origin' for the intersections across the precession axis (Lehner Line) you want this point to be seen as 'anchored' – the 'anchor point'. Now, if we look at this intentional (albeit theoretical) circle, we see that there are only TWO POINTS that are beyond the timeline (precession axis) i.e. when we draw a line to these points from the anchor point (the Sphinx) they will intersect the precession axis at a specific point along the timeline.
Our civilisation is presently charting the imminent arrival of the small red planet, Sedna, to our neighbourhood which, interestingly, has an orbit that corresponds very well with the duration between the two dates in the precessional axis – some 11,712 years.
Posted by Byrd
In order to understand precession, you need to be able to accurately measure the stars and planets and their positions and have the ability to predict where things will be. So this means observatories and a long history of drawings and markers of stars on stones. I've seen some of the ancient rock art involving stars here in North America (and it's not predictive but it does record the positions of the stars and in several cases has sun markers showning important days.)
Could you show me where the ancestors of the AE's had accurate observatories?
Research suggests that it may have been a prehistoric calendar which accurately marks the summer solstice.
The research done by the astrophysicist Thomas G. Brophy suggests that these monoliths might tell much more. The calendar circle itself is made up of one doorway that runs north-south, a second that runs northeast-southwest marking the summer solstice, and six center stones (see sketch above). Brophy's hypothesis proposes first that the southerly line of three stones inside the calendar circle represented the three stars of Orion’s Belt and the other three stones inside the calendar circle represented the shoulders and head stars of Orion as they appeared in the sky. These correspondences were for two dates -- circa 4,800 BC and at precessional opposition -- representing how the sky "moves" long term. Brophy proposes that the circle was constructed and used circa the later date, and the dual date representation was a conceptual representation of the motion of the sky over a precession cycle. Near by the calendar circle, which is made of smaller stones, there are alignments of large megalithic stones. The southerly lines of these megaliths, Brophy shows, aligned to the same stars as represented in the calendar circle, all at the same epoch, circa 6270 BC. The calendar circle correlation with Orion's belt occurred between 6400 BC and 4900 BC, matching the radio-carbon dating of campfires around the circle.
Brophy found that the lines made to these megaliths match the spots in the sky where the various stars rose in vernal equinox heliacal rising. In analyzing the varying distances, mulling through assumptions such as that they represented the brightness of the stars, he inadvertently found that they matched the distance of the stars from Earth on a scale of roughly 1 meter = .8 light years within the margin of error for astronomical distances calculated today.
Hans: That is why the lenght of the Lehner line is so important. With a known length you can assign the years in known segments and determine if 2012 comes anywhere close.
Hans: For clairification. What do YOU mean by a polar shift?, Magnetic movement, crustal slippage or the movement of the pole permanently to another location on earth or the flipping of the poles?
SC: But this precession clock is not about predicting the actions of MEN, rather it is more likely about predicting the actions of cosmic bodies.
Byrd: It's doing a darn poor job of it, Scott. The case being presented is of stars in a 2-dimensional framework when they actually exist in a 3 dimensional space within a time frame.
SC: If they can demonstrate to us at Giza via the placement of the 2 sets of so-called 'Queens Pyramids', the culminations of the belt stars over some 12,960 years then predicting the return of some other (as yet unknown) stellar body should be within their capabilities.
Like Tungaska? I don't see any evidence there about Tungaska. I do see hopping on a modern notion based on what people are adding to the Mayan calendar.
Byrd: And I don't think you understand the scale of "stellar body." Stars aren't points of light -- they're sun-sized objects,...
Byrd: ….the largest of which are hundreds of times larger than our own sun. One of them heading for us would be hard to miss (unless you were blind) -- in fact, by now it would be as bright as our own sun. The only way it could "sneak up on us" for 2012 is for it to be equipped with warp drive.
Byrd: Even brown dwarves are fairly bright objects in the sky. "Black Stars" warp gravity around them, so you get a gravity lensing effect. Every amateur astronomer (and professional astronomer, and backyard stargazers with binoculars) would have spotted a stellar object in our neighborhood ages ago.
SC: I am saying that if we take the Lehner Line as the half-precession axis of 12,960 years then year 1 corresponds with the minimum culmination of the belt stars of Orion c.10,460BCE (as depicted by the Menkaure Queens).
Byrd: Uhmm... stars don't just "dart" into position. Nor do the number of queens' pyramids match the stars -- one of the stars is a single star, the second is a double star and Alnitak is a triple star.
Byrd: The idea of a "cumulation" in space does not take into account that they were moving and still move. The apparant "arrival" of these stars into one configuration as seen from one planet only works if the sky is a flat sheet wrapped around the globe and stars are just holes poked into that sheet.
SC: Now some 760 years after this stellar culmination event of the belt stars, some major event occurred on the Earth. We can say then that c.760 AOC (After Orion Culmination) this event took place. Similarly, in the year c.12,472 AOC another event may take place. It so happens that these two dates c.760 AOC & c.12,472 AOC correspond with c.9,700BCE & c.2,012 CE respectively of the Christian calendar. However, the one true calendar is the apparent precessional motion of the stars.
Byrd: Uhmmm... the one true calendar is the position of the Earth in its orbit around the sun.
SC: They don't have to measure such. They just need to understand precession which, from the evidence I have uncovered, leads me to conclude that they did understand such. And when I say 'they' I mean the ancestors of the AEs of the Dynastic Period.
Byrd: Could you show me where the ancestors of the AE's had accurate observatories?
SC: Unless, of course, you happen to consider that the Sphinx somehow magically happens to find itself sitting precisely on the very edge of that (theoretical) circle is simple happenstance.
Byrd: Or related to quarrying.
SC: Now, as stated, the Sphinx (the so-called 'Place of the First Time' - from the Dream Stellae)
Byrd: Minor correction, here... the Dream Stele does not say that the Sphynx is the "place of the first time" but does indicate that the Giza plateau is.
Byrd: Furthermore, it says that the Sphynx is the god, Kepher-Ra. It identifies two important goddesses, the "Lady of the South Wall" and the "Lady of the North wall":
ib205.tripod.com...
SC: ... is quite different from the Pyramids but is somehow 'connected' to them – this is to repeat the fact the Sphinx is aligned precisely midway along the 'Lehner Line'. Also, the Sphinx is carved from the physical bedrock of the plateau and, therefore, is not easily removed. This is important because as a 'point of origin' for the intersections across the precession axis (Lehner Line) you want this point to be seen as 'anchored' – the 'anchor point'. Now, if we look at this intentional (albeit theoretical) circle, we see that there are only TWO POINTS that are beyond the timeline (precession axis) i.e. when we draw a line to these points from the anchor point (the Sphinx) they will intersect the precession axis at a specific point along the timeline.
Byrd: I really think this is a stretch. They had no way of forming an accurate circle that large and there's no indication that they built things on a circular plan. If you look at Imhotep's original creation fro Djoser, you see that the idea is a pyramid enclosed in walls (as was done for other pyramids); the resulting space is much smaller than the whole area you define. The walls that have been identified don't seem to be projections or markers but the remains of longer walls (as implied in the Dream Stele.)
Byrd: And as others have pointed out, on the ground you can't see where these lines intersect. To assume that the builders at Giza could have kept an accurate measure over that distance and over variable terrain even before it was quarried to a relatively flat platea seems an awful big stretch.
SC: Our civilisation is presently charting the imminent arrival of the small red planet, Sedna, to our neighbourhood which, interestingly, has an orbit that corresponds very well with the duration between the two dates in the precessional axis – some 11,712 years.
Byrd: When did Sedna leave its orbital path and why aren't amateur astronomers everywhere excited about this (since they CAN photograph it with a good telescope and a very long exposure)? As far as I can tell, it's still 88 AU from the sun: en.wikipedia.org...
-- at least, that's what stargazers everywhere seem to be saying. It's a rather unlikely candidate to be heading sunward since it is classed as a "detatched object" of the solar system, meaning that its orbit isn't influenced by the gas giants here. en.wikipedia.org...
Could you point me to some reliable sites that talk about Sedna leaving its orbit?
Originally posted by Scott Creighton
SC: This is completely meaningless. How exactly do you present 3-dimensional objects in space on a 2-dimensional plane? Float pyramids in the air? Is that what you are suggesting? The designers of this scheme have done a pretty darn good job of transposing 3-D space to the 2-D plane of Giza.
The belt stars are presented at minimum culmination via the 3 horizontal Queens Pyramids of Menkaure
If we consider the three lines in the diagrams above as horizon indicators then this scheme tells us that the three queens of Menkare are symbolic of the three stars as the stars set on the horizon.
SC: I don't recall Tungaska 'moving the heavens' (i.e. tilting the Earth). It remains my view that the shafts of the Great Pyramid demonstrate a 6.5* shift of the Earth's polar axis. Such an event would surely have imprinted itself upon the minds of generations.
Byrd: And I don't think you understand the scale of "stellar body." Stars aren't points of light -- they're sun-sized objects,...
SC: When I gaze at the night sky I don't see sun-sized objects – I see points of light. That's most likely also what the ancients saw.
Byrd: ….the largest of which are hundreds of times larger than our own sun. One of them heading for us would be hard to miss (unless you were blind) -- in fact, by now it would be as bright as our own sun. The only way it could "sneak up on us" for 2012 is for it to be equipped with warp drive.
SC: Who said anything about an object “as bright as our own sun” that would “...sneak up on us...”? You seem to have the impression that only a massive object can cause the Earth to alter its polar axis. Not so. A relatively small asteroid can do it.
SC: We're not talking about “cumulations” in space. We're talking about “culminations” on the horizon as observed from 30*N latitude of the Earth.
SC: And if we want to register/record time greater than 1 year? We have to create an arbitrary “line in the sand” e.g. the birth of some deity or other and keep counting the years. Precession gives us a longer-term natural calendar for the measurement/recording of long periods of time – 12,960 Earth suns.
Byrd: Could you show me where the ancestors of the AE's had accurate observatories?
SC: I think Stonehenge, Newgrange, Nabta Playa all predate the pyramids. Who knows – there may have been many more such megalithic 'observatories' around the Earth that have long since fallen into ruin. All that's needed are two poles in the ground to register an alignment with a star on the horizon. It's not complicated.
SC: The Sphinx was evidently (according to archaeologist, Colin Reader) in place BEFORE the Gizamids.
SC: The Earth's polar axis will change to another location. It has occurred in the past and there is little reason why such cannot occur again.
There is no doubt in my mind about this.
Originally posted by Scott Creighton
reply to post by Byrd
Continued from previous.....
SC: Now, as stated, the Sphinx (the so-called 'Place of the First Time' - from the Dream Stellae)
Byrd: Minor correction, here... the Dream Stele does not say that the Sphynx is the "place of the first time" but does indicate that the Giza plateau is.
SC: That's a matter of interpretation. I take the view that the very location of the Dream Stellae i.e. between the paws of the Sphinx is doing what precisely it says its doing – marking the place of the First Time.
SC: The name “Kepher-Ra” but not in a cartouche. Just curious - why would the writers of this stellae – some thousand years after the reign of its alleged builder, Khafre – not place the name of the King within a cartouche which was clearly in use by the reign of Khafre?
SC: The AEs of the 4th Dynasty implemented a plan. They scaled-up a plan using a center line or grid method. It's really not that difficult and you do not require line of sight for the entire plateau. It has been shown that such simple methods could have worked to create the Nazca lines. No big shakes here.
SC: Our civilisation is presently charting the imminent arrival of the small red planet, Sedna, to our neighbourhood which, interestingly, has an orbit that corresponds very well with the duration between the two dates in the precessional axis – some 11,712 years.
Byrd: When did Sedna leave its orbital path and why aren't amateur astronomers everywhere excited about this?
(snip)
SC: Offered only as an example to show how little we know of 'what's out there'. Sedna was discovered only 7 years ago! What else might we have missed?
I think it is also obvious to everyone reading this that the two dates presented (c.9,700BCE & c.2,012CE) are 'notable' dates. Is it all just one big coinicidence?
I sincerely hope so.
Originally posted by Hanslune
Why not use pottery, and make zillions of them and spread them across the entire planet, place them on top of inaccessible mountains, place them with radioactives so they will be detected, put them everywhere. Have on it a representation of the start and stop date and the line with an indication of what will happen.
Originally posted by Hanslune
Why not use pottery, and make zillions of them and spread them across the entire planet, place them on top of inaccessible mountains, place them with radioactives so they will be detected, put them everywhere. Have on it a representation of the start and stop date and the line with an indication of what will happen.