Why is the cover-up a crime?

page: 1
5
<<   2 >>

log in

join

posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 06:17 PM
link   
I'd like for us to debate, and hopefully find out, on whether an hypothetical cover-up of extra-terrestrial visitation would be a crime.

I started thinking about this after watching I Know What I Saw where they show footage of John Podesta in a Coalition for Freedom of Information press conference in 2002 saying, among other things, "(...) And we ought to do it because it's the law" regarding disclosure of Government investigations of UFOs.

Then this post by DoomsdayRex showed me that others had the same question as I did.

For something to be a crime, laws have to have been broken. So, what laws have been broken if Government, Military officials and agencies covered-up evidence of extra-terrestrial visitation?

Let me be clear: this is not about the moral issue, this is only about the legal issue, so please don't comment on why you think Government(s) should disclose such information - there are plenty threads for that.

Thank you.




posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 07:41 PM
link   
Thank you for making this thread, Converge.

Let me be clear, I was not being facetious with my question. Though I doubt a supposed UFO cover-up would be any more a crime than the secrecy surrounding the Manhattan Project, our nuclear arsenal, OXCART or any other projects, the question was genuine. What would make a UFO cover-up a crime?



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 08:24 PM
link   
So what's the point of this? Well, there are those that when discussing this topic will say that disclosure of Government information on UFOs should be done because it's against the law (a crime) to cover it up. But what is the legal basis for that?

I'm suspecting that this argument is completely made up and has no foundation in reality. I could be wrong and someone aware of the legislation will share it with us some of us we'll learn something.

I think this is something that deserves attention particularly in light of the visibility of the so called disclosure movement.

It's probably hard for some to face it but it's likely that the Government, if they have indeed covered up information about the phenomena, is within its rights to keep that information from the people, regardless of what each one of us morally thinks of it.



posted on Oct, 8 2009 @ 04:44 PM
link   
What? No one? Well, that was unexpected


I'd like to formally invite randyvs to participate in this thread since he showed interest (in a special way) in it.



posted on Oct, 8 2009 @ 05:45 PM
link   
It is rather sad we invite people in for a thoughtful, rational discussion and no one bites. That seems to be the fate of similar threads here on ATS; if they aren't about unsubstantiated speculation and fear-mongering, they die.



posted on Oct, 8 2009 @ 06:02 PM
link   
reply to post by converge
 



It's probably hard for some to face it but it's likely that the Government, if they have indeed covered up information about the phenomena, is within its rights to keep that information from the people, regardless of what each one of us morally thinks of it.


do you work for the goverment ?

i ask that because nobody with morals and values that doesn't work for the goverment would be ignorant enough to say that. no offense intended to you but i find that statement to be an insult and anyone in their right mind should object to it.

you are willing to advocate the goverment hiding things from the public ?




[edit on 8-10-2009 by easynow]



posted on Oct, 8 2009 @ 06:03 PM
link   
As a legal issue it's not a crime. It's also not a moral issue, yet it would be fair to share these things with the people (If they're already claiming, they're for us.). But what these cover up guys never realize, secrets breed curiosity, curiosity breed conspiracy theories and sooner or later, we'll find out what the truth is and at the end, they must figure out something to cover up their secrets again. They're making job only for themselves.

What I don't really like in these cover ups, when some moron is trying to decide: The people are not ready for it. Yeah. Sure. Who the hell are you to decide?

Or when they're saying: it's for our protection. Another lie. No one can be protected by secrets. Secrets are equal with fear, nothing more.

[edit on 8-10-2009 by Sharrow]



posted on Oct, 8 2009 @ 06:33 PM
link   

Originally posted by easynow
do you work for the goverment ?


No, I don't.



i ask that because nobody with morals and values that doesn't work for the goverment would be ignorant enough to say that.


Don't you think your insinuation that only someone without "morals and values" would work for the Government is too extreme?



you are willing advocate the goverment hiding things from the public ?


You have misunderstood my point. I am in no way, and have not, endorsed any cover-up. What I'm saying is that I doubt there is any law that would require the Government to disclose this information to the public, or that it would make covering-up the information a crime.

I bring this up because some members mentioned, and it usually comes up when discussing the subject of disclosure, that the cover-up is a crime.

I'm strictly talking about a legal matter here, not what I morally think of it. I personally object to a cover-up, but that doesn't mean the Government isn't acting within existing law while doing so.

For example, some people believe the UFO subject has been hidden under the umbrella of Special Access Programs (SAP). Although highly secretive and restrictive, SAPs still have to follow strict legislation. Legislation that, for example, explicitly defines procedures, authority, and even reporting to elected officials.

The bottom line is that while we can object to the cover-up for a multitude of reasons, it may very well be that the Government hasn't broken any laws while doing so, nor is required to disclose any information relating to the matter. But since some people said covering it up was a crime, I'd like to know exactly what laws are people talking about.



posted on Oct, 8 2009 @ 06:45 PM
link   
I propose another debate. Maybe I should make a completely new thread, but I'll ask it anyway.

It is against the law for me to be naked at work but I do enjoy being naked at work.

Yesterday, I spray painted clothes on my naked body and went to work.

Should I be arrested?

I completely agree. What's the point in discussing this? I have know idea.

...quietly leaving thread.



posted on Oct, 8 2009 @ 06:48 PM
link   
reply to post by converge
 


it might not be illegal, but goes against what this country was founded on, and on that premise shouldnt be allowed by us...



posted on Oct, 8 2009 @ 06:57 PM
link   
reply to post by converge
 



Don't you think your insinuation that only someone without "morals and values" would work for the Government is too extreme?


that's not what i said and you are assuming that's what i meant when in fact i never implied that someone working for the goverment cannot have any morals and values.

i believe someone that does work for the goverment might put aside their morals and values and defend what you are proposing because their either brainwashed or job scared.



You have misunderstood my point.


perhaps i have but when i read this...


It's probably hard for some to face it but it's likely that the Government, if they have indeed covered up information about the phenomena, is within its rights to keep that information from the people, regardless of what each one of us morally thinks of it.


it seemed to me you were advocating goverment lies.



I doubt there is any law that would require the Government to disclose this information to the public, or that it would make covering-up the information a crime.


i doubt there is a written law that prohibits the goverment from hiding things and even if there was there are tricks that they can use like national security reasons and continuation of goverment to avoid any legalities.


I personally object to a cover-up, but that doesn't mean the Government isn't acting within existing law while doing so.


ok thanks, good to hear that my friend
glad you are on the side of the citizens who object to secrecy from the goverment. if the laws actually exist and if they are acting within existing laws then i would say they put those laws in place on purpose so they can do what ever the heck they want just like the patriot act etc.


The bottom line is that while we can object to the cover-up for a multitude of reasons, it may very well be that the Government hasn't broken any laws while doing so, nor is required to disclose any information relating to the matter. But since some people said covering it up was a crime, I'd like to know exactly what laws are people talking about.


in case you haven't noticed lately, the goverment is above the law and even if you caught them breaking a law or violating our rights under the constitution they can just claim it's for national security reasons and then you got nothing. i am sure you already know all this...just saying

anyway's i see your point now, you want to know if there is a law or not and i wish i knew the facts on that but i don't thinks it's important because this is a rigged game and the deck is stacked against us.

sorry for any confusion i may have caused, carry on.



posted on Oct, 8 2009 @ 06:57 PM
link   

Originally posted by chrisd250
it might not be illegal, but goes against what this country was founded on, and on that premise shouldnt be allowed by us...


I don't remember anything in the history of the founding of the Republic or the forging of the Constitution that forbid the keeping of secrets. In fact, the inability to keep secrets would mean the death of any nation.



posted on Oct, 8 2009 @ 07:04 PM
link   
I applaud your effort here converge. This is a VERY decent question and a topic that needs to be discussed, as the government cover-up theory is a major part of ufology. Personally I see nothing that is IILEGAL with covering this up in the interest of national security-BOTH domestically and externally in nature. As far as immoral issues go, well that is irrelevant (sadly but true and logical IMHO) as the law is the law and sometimes decisions HAVE to be made that may be "immoral" in nature, at least at this point and time in our evolution as a species.

With that said, does that mean I am a proponent of the US or any government covering anything of this proportion up still to this day? NO, it does NOT. I do think there may have been good reason in the past to cover something like this up, but at this point in our time I feel that now we are capable of handling this in a responsible manner, but I may be wrong. The thing some people fail to realize is that regardless of how much personally we want disclosure and "the truth", we can not be selfish and assume that everyone as a whole can handle it. To quote the movie Men In Black:

People are smart, people in masses are dumb.

So in my humble opinion, disclosure (if there is anything to disclose, which I think there is but that is another thread
) will come at a time when we as a whole are ready to maturely and responsibly handle such a massive paradigm shift.

One more note, I really wish that the blatant name calling and disrespect shown towards someone who believes differently than someone else would stop, it is only hurting our very field, whether you notice it or not.


Again, star and flag converge, and also props to doomsdayrex, as it seems he is trying to help you in this discussion as well. Keep up the great work.


[edit on 10/8/2009 by jkrog08]



posted on Oct, 8 2009 @ 07:18 PM
link   
If something as big as ET visitation to this planet is being covered up, there is a great likelihood that murders have been committed in the name of keeping this ultimate secret. I know if I had indisputable proof of this subject's reality, I would bring it to everyone's attention. I'm sure some people within the governments of the world, including the USA, have been in this very position from time to time and yet the secret remains. Or perhaps the civilian populace comes across evidence from time to time that might otherwise destroy the cover up. Rumors persist over the deaths of James Forrestal, James McDonald, and others. As far as I know, murder is a crime at all levels of government in the USA.

There is also the issue of funding this gigantic cover up and the apparatus to which its maintained. This money may be entirely covered by the Black Budget, but then again it may not. Keeping money off the books in any other circumstance is usually considered a crime in the USA. If the funding for this cover up comes from other methods, it would most likely be illegal.

And are the USA's wars actually a facade to fund the military and its industries to maintain an ET cover-up? Depending on who you ask, 9/11 was a government conspiracy. It could well be that to maintain a massive military force capable of scaring off extraterrestrials without alerting the public as to why such a military force is necessary, illegal warfare and the slaughter of humans foreign and domestic to maintain a terrestrial purpose for massive military might is required.

We will know none of this until the secret comes out.

[edit on 8-10-2009 by Frith]



posted on Oct, 8 2009 @ 07:27 PM
link   

Originally posted by easynow
in case you haven't noticed lately, the goverment is above the law


It's not, and the fact that you can sue the Government is the basic demonstrative aspect of that. I grant you that it's a difficult task, but nevertheless it's a basic principle that no one is above the law, including the Government.



and even if you caught them breaking a law or violating our rights under the constitution they can just claim it's for national security reasons and then you got nothing. i am sure you already know all this...just saying


Well, the fact that "they can just claim" national security reasons isn't a made up excuse, it has a legal basis and precedent [United States v. Reynolds], although it's obviously subjectable to abuses as, ironically, demonstrated in that very same case that set the precedent.

But again, we might disagree with these laws but as long as they remain laws if the Government is operating within their limits they are, technically and legally, in their right.



sorry for any confusion i may have caused, carry on.


No confusion was caused. I always welcome your input.



posted on Oct, 8 2009 @ 07:55 PM
link   
reply to post by Frith
 

You bring up very pertinent points, even though as you point out, there might not be, as of now, any proof for them.

This legal perspective is, I believe and seemingly, an avenue that has remained unexplored in the context of UFO research, and is linked to some of the points you mentioned.

If people could find evidence of any Governmental wrongdoing in some other aspect of the cover-up - if there is one - perhaps not even directly involved with actual UFOs or knowledge of them, the whole thing could eventually unravel.

Watergate is a good example of that - something that started out as a break-in and ended up in bringing down the President of the United States.



posted on Oct, 8 2009 @ 10:09 PM
link   
I suppose there could be legal issues if, during the course of maintaining secrecy, there were laws broken. But then again, they would be matters of national security, which I think trumps all....so in the end, maybe no laws would be broken.

I mean, lets say they needed to kill someone to keep a lid on something. And they do it in the name of national security then cover it up so it looks like something else. Did they break the law even if the actions they undertook were (in their minds) of such importance to the United States that to fail would have incalculable repercussions? We could be talking ufos and aliens, possible wmd terrorist action, or anything that requires intel and counter intel type stuff.

This is a really neat subject to discuss. What are th



posted on Oct, 8 2009 @ 11:57 PM
link   

Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts
I mean, lets say they needed to kill someone to keep a lid on something. And they do it in the name of national security then cover it up so it looks like something else. Did they break the law even if the actions they undertook were (in their minds) of such importance to the United States that to fail would have incalculable repercussions?


The state secrets privilege - the privilege invoked on grounds of national security - could be used to dismiss cases in where's Government wrongdoing, and has in the past. Not in any case where there's allegations of murder as presented in your hypothetical scenario, though. So far at least.

Although Attorney General Eric Holder recently passed new policies and procedures for invoking state secrets privilege, the limitations of the state secrets privilege are basically self-imposed. The limitations section is as follows:

C. Limitations. The Department will not defend an invocation of the privilege in order to: (i) conceal violations of the law, inefficiency, or administrative error; (ii) prevent embarrassment to a person, organization, or agency of the United States government; (iii) restrain competition; or (iv) prevent or delay the release of information the release of which would not reasonably be expected to cause significant harm to national security.

Notice the language: will not defend, not can't.

There are attempts to reform, and limit, the scope of the Government's power of state secrets privilege, most recently by bill H.R. 984: State Secret Protection Act of 2009.

But in sum, most likely the Government could use state secrets privilege to dismiss cases claiming gross unlawful conduct, including murder.

Would that equate to no laws having been broken? No, they would still have been broken, but the state secrets privilege, if invoked, would make any civil cases against the Government go away.

I'm not sure, however, if Congress wouldn't have the power to initiate investigations into those alleged wrongdoings.

It'd interesting if there were lawyers or jurisprudence aficionados out there willing to elucidate and elaborate on this more.



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 10:36 AM
link   
is this topic for real? the elite who control this information are not subject to any law you maybe able to find. they USE the law to suppress individual/company and anyone else they feel is a threat. do you honestly think you can go to any judge in America and ask for a search warrant for Area-51, why don't we just impeach Dick Cheney next cause i watched a video where some old burnt out soldier claims he saw him looking at UFO's once.

get real. when disclosure does come to light the elite who have been hiding this information will be long gone, best thing you can hope for is that one elite is thrown under the bus by his colleagues. then we can have one of them ol' style crucifixion.


[edit on 9-10-2009 by kmarx]



posted on Oct, 9 2009 @ 11:23 AM
link   
reply to post by converge
 


I can answer that easily ... Yes its a crime, and here is why :
The US government takes taxes from the people of your nation , in order to fund its projects , both political, scientific, medical , you name it, you pay for it . One of those projects is the Nasa organisation and its activities.
Nasa has, as one of its founding tenents, a responsibility to answer some of the deepest questions about space, inclusive of "are we alone ?" .
If it turned out that the question had been answered but that the tax payer was being kept in the dark, that would effectively mean that the taxpayer was paying for a service that they will never actualy see the fruit of , which could arguably be a massive fraud, and when you think about the portion of the Nasa budget which ought to have been spent answering that question, it would be a fraud of such gargantuan proportions that it would dwarf even the most brazen corperate thefts in history.
Also it would maybe be a crime under the freedom of information laws. Obviously there are some filthy bastards in the mix, choosing what is covered by the freedom of information act, and what information is covered by the equivalent national secrets act in your nation. But if it were proven that the person or people controling that, were classifying everything as secret for no particular realistic reason , that would be an abuse of pretty much everything , right from the information act itself , all the way down to (maybe) the constitution ?? I dunno , Im a Brit , and we arent allowed a constitution of our own, so Im not sure what the loopholes are .





top topics
 
5
<<   2 >>

log in

join