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My Idea for a Utopia

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posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 01:38 PM
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reply to post by liquidsmoke206
 


why on earth would unemployment matter if everything is free?

who cares if it does increase lazy people maybe laying in a hamick all day contemplating life is all some what to do, more power to them. It wont take away from people who still want to create invent and help.

and yes there would have to be a major change in government, but thats implied by the simple fact that a guy like me was voted president of the world lol

your post are sorta off, in some you defend my idea, in other you attack it, seems like your sorta on the fence.

edited to add:

you could do it basically in a month by having all the robots built before you make the announcement, distributing would be the only thing holding you back, so i give it a month (in the future) to ship billions of robots.

Making them would be the only problem, but hey i am president of the world, i will just dedicate all the tax revenues to that for 10 years or so (think of all the jobs lol) then when its done, hey all that money i spent, well hell it doesn't even matter now, were free from all of it, woo hoo.

[edit on 10/6/2009 by Alaskan Man]




posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 01:38 PM
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reply to post by Alaskan Man
 


you might like to read this thread .

www.abovetopsecret.com...

you will need to think , to see its connection to this discussion



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by liquidsmoke206
 



How do you get if you use current population standards, 6.9 Billion people of differring race, religion, locations, histories and a plethora of over variables to all agree to one mode of living?


[edit on 10/6/2009 by tothetenthpower]


tell them there aloud to do whatever they want as long as they dont physically harm another human being.

that's the one rule in a utopia without money or concern for providing, don't harm anyone physically,

everything else, religion, ideals, drugs, its all legal in my utopia, we're all free.



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 01:47 PM
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reply to post by Alaskan Man
 


That's great and all, but how do you get people to NOT harm other people?

That is the big question.

Really I agree with you, I am a libertarian at heart and what you just said should be the way things are, however human nature prevents such things from occuring.

~Keeper



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 01:51 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


maybe when everyone has whatever they want, and no longer feel the stress of living in crap, they wont kill each other?

the only conflicts i could see getting big would be fighting over land, however its a one world government, so there are no longer boarders, you can live anywhere regardless of beleif system or culture.

and well i know there will still be some extreme people who dont follow the rules and still do harm.

well for them.... we border off a 3rd of Australia, and make it a type of prison, a prison of luxury, they still have everything everyone else has EXCEPT they are followed by a robot guard who will physically stop them from doing harm to someone else.



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 01:51 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


Just about every person I've ever known who deliberately caused harm to another person was driven by a sense of lack. Once the lack of something has been addressed, the need to harm someone due to a personal sense of lack disappears.

Greed, fear and lack are the causes of all crimes. Lack of money, lack of power, lack of recognition, lack of self-esteem, etc.

Just thinking out loud here.



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 01:51 PM
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reply to post by Alaskan Man
 


Even with robot worker's, your idea still wouldn't work. Basically, if no body worked anymore, that includes maintaining the robots and even if you have robots to do that, you need robots to maintain those robots etc etc etc.

Then you need people to produce the energy or means to gather that energy or repair sources of energy generation or the robots that do that. Robotic workers can only help lighten the load so much, we would still need people.

The only solution for a viable Utopian civilization would be a point where we all act for the greater good of society under one people of one planet. People would still have to work, but it would be different than why we work today.



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 01:52 PM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 





How so?

How do you get if you use current population standards, 6.9 Billion people of differring race, religion, locations, histories and a plethora of over variables to all agree to one mode of living?

It's already done on a small scale, I mean as much people on ATS like to preach about how society is a total failure. it's actually not. If you couldn't get people to agree on things then we wouldn't be sitting on a web forum discussing this right now.



Does that not remove individuality and free will from the equation? One rule for all will never work.

It may to some extent, what that extent is is debatable. check my post about grey aliens. They would seem(by most reports)to have completely given up their individuality in order to become a more efficient unit. Assuming of course there was a time that they had individuality.



Rather, we should encourage individual communities of like minded people. There's enough room for that on the planet. We all know that big federal government doesn't work, therefore we must rely on large community government.

I think this already exists, and it's taken us out of the stoneage. Thats what i was talking about in the 1st part of this post.



Decisions only affecting those of one certain region should only be the business of those people. They should set their own rules. If you don't like it, then move to a place where like minded people such as yourself want to live.

I think this is probably what the founding fathers had in mind, but it starts to get complex, what if you agree with the community you're in some regards, but not in others. It's tough to find a perfect fit. But that has alot to do with the fact that we are living in now right now. uh...yeah i think that made sense...



Obviously that system is flawed as well, since nothing is perfect and I am just giving a very vague example.

yep.



You put 1000 people in one room and tell them they have a choice. They can live in complete Utopia and never have to work a day in their lives, or they can continue doing what they are doing today.

I can guarantee you at least one person will want to continue doing what they are doing.

definitely more than one. But I don't believe that a utopia consists of not working. Humans will still have lots of work to do, it would just be more fulfilling kind of stuff, robots can flip burgers all day and never complain. Would humans know what to do with themselves if they didn't have to work? thats a major issue. This is what I mean about the complications of transitioning to a mostly automated society. Not as easy a move as one thinks.



That 1 person has the potential to ruin it for everybody else. There are too many variables to consider, too much planning and in our current society and those of the future (1000+ years) we are and will be creatures of instinct. Animals. We've simply fooled ourselves into thinking we are special.

I disagree again, I think we are special. but agree that there are to many variables, like I've said repeatedly the transition would likely not be smooth.



Edit to add: Also, ask anybody who has substantial power in this world if they would give it up to be "just like everybody else". What would the most common answer be?


a common ideal has to be met, by all humans, I don't think it's impossible, just impossible NOW.


Liquid



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 01:56 PM
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reply to post by Alaskan Man
 



Your Australia idea would not work. Your solution is to group all individuals of violent nature etc.. to live all in one place?

They would tear that place apart, destroy your robots and then take over the country.

Again, everybody will never agree.

No dice.

~Keeper



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by Alaskan Man
 


Even with robot worker's, your idea still wouldn't work. Basically, if no body worked anymore, that includes maintaining the robots and even if you have robots to do that, you need robots to maintain those robots etc etc etc.


i don't agree with your logic, these aren't robots made of paper machey, they will last a while, and simply see robot machinist or people who desire to work as mechanics for necessary repair,

plus there will constantly be new robots being made, the only worry would be robots going rouge like in the matrix (spookey haha)



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by Hazelnut
reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


Just about every person I've ever known who deliberately caused harm to another person was driven by a sense of lack. Once the lack of something has been addressed, the need to harm someone due to a personal sense of lack disappears.

Greed, fear and lack are the causes of all crimes. Lack of money, lack of power, lack of recognition, lack of self-esteem, etc.

Just thinking out loud here.


very true



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by Alaskan Man
 



Your Australia idea would not work. Your solution is to group all individuals of violent nature etc.. to live all in one place?

They would tear that place apart, destroy your robots and then take over the country.



there's no weapons in this prison, i doubt a human could take out a machine with its bare hands if the machine tried to stop it, these robots would be much stronger, and EVERY prisoner gets a robot guard, following them at say 2 feet away, 24/7

these people couldn't follow the one rule, don't harm people physically, its what ya get for breaking the rule and it still pretty sweet.



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by liquidsmoke206
reply to post by tothetenthpower
 





It's already done on a small scale, I mean as much people on ATS like to preach about how society is a total failure. it's actually not. If you couldn't get people to agree on things then we wouldn't be sitting on a web forum discussing this right now.


Ahh on a small scale yes, because like minded inviduals do group in the same places some what. However, they are still put down by the grander system around them which is not built for them, but for small groups of very rich people.



It may to some extent, what that extent is is debatable. check my post about grey aliens. They would seem(by most reports)to have completely given up their individuality in order to become a more efficient unit. Assuming of course there was a time that they had individuality.


I somewhat agree with what you are saying, but we would loose that spark of curiosity and fun which makes us human. Effectiveness is not a good enough reason to subject ourselves to such a strict lifestyle.



I think this already exists, and it's taken us out of the stoneage. Thats what i was talking about in the 1st part of this post.


I agree. My idea however encompasses the entire world, and I mean all decisions such as the penalties for certain behaviours as well as any bartering/trading system introduced.



I think this is probably what the founding fathers had in mind, but it starts to get complex, what if you agree with the community you're in some regards, but not in others. It's tough to find a perfect fit. But that has alot to do with the fact that we are living in now right now. uh...yeah i think that made sense...


It did
. And yes it is very complex, the change would not take place quickly, that's just a very unrealistic goal. It would take months, even years.

And yes I think the constitution is pretty much perfect.





definitely more than one. But I don't believe that a utopia consists of not working. Humans will still have lots of work to do, it would just be more fulfilling kind of stuff, robots can flip burgers all day and never complain. Would humans know what to do with themselves if they didn't have to work? thats a major issue. This is what I mean about the complications of transitioning to a mostly automated society. Not as easy a move as one thinks.


I completely agree. Automated society would make us dependant on technology and we know that anything can go wrong with that, and poof, we'd be back in the stone age.



I disagree again, I think we are special.


To each his own eh?
.



a common ideal has to be met, by all humans, I don't think it's impossible, just impossible NOW.


Yup, right now impossible. Like I said, it isn't IMPOSSIBLE, simply unrealistic.

~Keeper

[edit on 10/6/2009 by tothetenthpower]

[edit on 10/6/2009 by tothetenthpower]



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 02:05 PM
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i have to go to class now for a while, i should be back in 5hours or less to debate some more


this has been fun for me



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 02:06 PM
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reply to post by Alaskan Man
 


It still doesn't make your world a Utopia. By definition a Utopia is not possible. But I am being literall.

Do you know how many people you would have to incarcerate? And who would make the robots?

You can't have a completely automated lifestyle. People will still need to work so the knowledge of science and do it yourself think is not lost for future generations.

One solar flare and your whole society is back to the stone age.

~Keeper



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by Alaskan Man
 


It still doesn't make your world a Utopia. By definition a Utopia is not possible. But I am being literall.




i think by the logic you are applying there is no such thing as a utopia because eventually the universe will end.

so then, which word would you like me to use, its definition has to be an age of peace and splendor, with no recurring violence, where everyone's free to do as they please as long as they adhere to the one rule.

and the question about where the robots come from i answered in another reply.

edited to add: really gotta run now, be back later.

[edit on 10/6/2009 by Alaskan Man]

[edit on 10/6/2009 by Alaskan Man]



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 02:12 PM
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reply to post by Alaskan Man
 


Machines break down and if no one is willing to repair them and the machines that do repair broken machines go into disrepair then there is nothing to fix the problem. Say we become so reliant on machine's building and repairing machines and it works so well for such a long time that no one bother's to learn how they work anymore. What then? It's a plausible scenario, we just can't rely on machines doing absolutely every laborious function and then rely on the *possibility* that someone might take enough of an interest to keep it all working. It's pure insanity to go that route.



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by Alaskan Man
 





why on earth would unemployment matter if everything is free?

because you're assuming that you can make an announcement and flip a switch and everything is automated. I gave you a real life example of how it really works...slowly....should we just tell all those bank of america employees who got replaced by new advanced ATM's not to worry cause they wont have to work in 1 month when the robots get here? No, we should not tell them that, we'd look like lunatics. Every job in the world will not be automated all at once, it would take years of research and development to create robots specialized in all those jobs. Human work would likely be replaced small pieces at a time. Does that seem like it would cause problems to you?



who cares if it does increase lazy people maybe laying in a hamick all day contemplating life is all some what to do, more power to them. It wont take away from people who still want to create invent and help.

people can already sit around and daydream much of the day away. I think when presented with nothing to do, creativity maybe stunted. Maybe thats why grey aliens are so interested in humans. maybe through becoming a utopian society, they lost the will to create, and have become static. Why the hell do I keep talking about grey aliens!!?




and yes there would have to be a major change in government, but thats implied by the simple fact that a guy like me was voted president of the world lol

fair enough.



your post are sorta off, in some you defend my idea, in other you attack it, seems like your sorta on the fence.


I defend the idea of a utopia, and I like the idea of robots too, and see them as a big step to a technological utopia. I just think that creating robots and leisure time is not gonna solve all your problems, and frankly may not be the right idea at all. Yes, I know I just contradicted myself, but I can see multiple roads to a "utopia". Do we necessarily need high technology and hammocks?



you could do it basically in a month by having all the robots built before you make the announcement, distributing would be the only thing holding you back, so i give it a month (in the future) to ship billions of robots.

Making them would be the only problem, but hey i am president of the world, i will just dedicate all the tax revenues to that for 10 years or so (think of all the jobs lol) then when its done, hey all that money i spent, well hell it doesn't even matter now, were free from all of it, woo hoo.


you know full well it ain't that simple, come on now!



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 


But there are a lot of people who love technology and would love to spend their lives playing with it, inventing it, fixing it. In the world of Utopia, everyone gets to follow their desires. I think the thing most people fear is that nothing would be regulated. In a world without regulation, anything could happen. Even good things. I have the strong opinion that, if left alone, most people would strive to be productive in their own ways.

Even if a majority of people did nothing but drink margaritas on the beach for months on end, there would be joy and happiness which is still an achievement.

If a couple of folks get rowdy and break up the place or each other, then the community directly involved would act depending on the infraction. People can do amazing things when they aren't afraid of everything.



posted on Oct, 6 2009 @ 02:25 PM
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reply to post by Alaskan Man
 





maybe when everyone has whatever they want, and no longer feel the stress of living in crap, they wont kill each other?


Probably true to some extent, but you'll always have yer psychos.



the only conflicts i could see getting big would be fighting over land, however its a one world government, so there are no longer boarders, you can live anywhere regardless of beleif system or culture.


yeah bro, 6 billion people ain't gonna fit in costa rica....
there has to be a common ideal, in order make this kind of utopia work, you need a smaller worldwide population, good luck gettin people to understand that, I've tried many times on ATS, people lose it on that issue.. you wouldn't see populations spread out across the globe, we'd start to converge on the best places to live, which means we would have to be smart and efficient, also less people, means less robots needed to take care of people. try and picture the repercussions of the things you're suggesting...

it's not all hammocks and boci ball.



and well i know there will still be some extreme people who dont follow the rules and still do harm.

well for them.... we border off a 3rd of Australia, and make it a type of prison, a prison of luxury, they still have everything everyone else has EXCEPT they are followed by a robot guard who will physically stop them from doing harm to someone else.



Awesome.





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