Myth of ancient Greece's 'heroes' blown away, page 2

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reply posted on 4-10-2009 @ 05:32 PM by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

Reply to post by Aquarius1

Alexander the Great was a tactical genius so it doesn't really matter to me if he was a wuss. His abilities forged him the largest empire that had been seen in that time. And as for the Spartans, I think yes, one could safely say they were a bit of a bully. Look at the training they recieved when they were young. Beating "Don't get caught" and various other savage rules into them will do that. It made them strong though. And doesn't change the fact that Leonidas sacraficed himself at Thermopoli, inflicting horrendus losses against the Persians and buying time for the rest of Greece. The other posters are right that thing reeks of hit peice.

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply posted on 4-10-2009 @ 06:02 PM by pieman

the fact that this guys work is seen as a revelation says way more about modern education than it does about ancient myths.

the fact that alexander loved his mother is pretty basic to his story.
if his life could be summed up in one sentence it would be "a gay guy, who loved his mother and elephants, probably killed his father but definitely conquered half the world."

the spartans were clearly bullies, they didn't do anything except fight!! where the hell do you think they got their food? they left their children on hillsides to die ffs, did you think they were nice?

athenian democracy led to corruption and dodgy politics, who'ld have thunk!?!

so far, this is really, really, really old news

reply posted on 4-10-2009 @ 06:33 PM by Byrd

Originally posted by infolurker
Nothing "blown away" here.

Agreed

He is just speculating.

Eh, he's more exaggerating from known facts for the sake of sensationalism (at least in the pieces cited in the article, by a writer who may not be familiar with ancient Greek history.

It is not like he found a "magic book" of alternate history and I am sure he didn't receive any "eyewitness" testimony so he is speculating and creating his own "story".

Actually, he IS using letters and documents from the people themselves (as the story says) including letters from Alexander to his mother.

But it does show how much history was watered down to teach reluctant schoolchildren. Sparta was a very violent city with harsh traditions designed to weed out the unfit at an early age (boys sent on long marches without any clothing except a tunic (no shoes.) More on this system of child rearing (including encouraged thieving) is here:
www.mnsu.edu...

Most of us who read up on these matters are aware how they also gloss over the culture of homosexuality (as with many warrior cultures, loving women was seen as a personal "weakness"... women were only for procreation (and only for sons.): en.wikipedia.org... )

There are even more lurid details if you care to go digging in the scholarly research archives. It's fascinating and often a bit repulsive.

reply posted on 4-10-2009 @ 07:09 PM by SpartanKingLeonidas

reply to post by Byrd

Alexander aside, since I already expressed my opinion about him, but the Spartan culture was one of war, plain and simple, and things like sandals were seen as a nicety.

As well as more clothing more than a tunic was as well.

Spartan youth had to earn their right to wear their armor and become a Spartiate.

As the saying goes, the Spartan's thought the Athenians were boy lovers.

Openly practiced homosexuality was a part of Athenian culture, not specifically Spartan.

Spartan's believe marriage to a woman was only good for one thing, to breed new warriors.

Homosexuality, was practiced more so in the long range battles, so that men were not distracted by the urges of having a female, where they were not allowed, due to the violent nature of warfare.

Ancient History Sourcebook : 11th Brittannica : Sparta

If anyone is going to speak on Sparta and her men, I will speak on it.

The Spartan Army

Gates of Fire: An Epic Novel of the Battle of Thermopylae

Spartan Women

The Spartans: The World of the Warrior-Heroes of Ancient Greece

Thermopylae: The Battle For The West

Spartan Reflections

Fighting Techniques of the Ancient World (3000 B.C. to 500 A.D.): Equipment, Combat Skills, and Tactics

That is the short list of books I have read on Sparta, I have forgotten many more since I have studied Greece and Rome all of my life, and did not keep track of all of them, but I have each of those books, I assure you.

Before someone says something here they will regret, I am not advocating homosexuality, nor pedophilia, but historically speaking it was far more rampant than it is today, due to the openness of society and sexuality, and judging one century over another should be likened to comparing cars, because each century is different from the last, just like automobiles, there is none better or worse than another, just subtle, unique, and often varying differences that people either like or dislike about them.

For those who do not know, America was founded based upon Roman and Greek templates, both the good and the bad, Athens for her Democracy, and Sparta for her dictatorial styles, and Rome for her Congress and Senators, and her arenas where the still raging conquests of an amphitheater where gladiators still fight to this day, albeit in the sissified battles of padding and helmets verses the swords, shields, and swords of yesterday.

reply posted on 5-10-2009 @ 09:44 AM by shamhat

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
Before someone says something here they will regret, I am not advocating homosexuality, nor pedophilia, but historically speaking it was far more rampant than it is today, due to the openness of society and sexuality, and judging one century over another should be likened to comparing cars, because each century is different from the last, just like automobiles, there is none better or worse than another, just subtle, unique, and often varying differences that people either like or dislike about them.

Homosexuality and martial culture went hand in hand right up until the second world war, it was highly prevelent in the German militaries, particularly with the Prussians who practiced pederasty, as did the British Officer class via the Public School system. It is less about open-ness and more about differing concepts of manliness and class. It is seldom encouraged in the ranks, but in leadership and rule it has at times been actively encouraged, and to be chosen as your leaders 'partner' was to be assured of a more rapid rise in rank than your peers, and thus it is proliferated to the next generation. Male rape was also used as a form of punishment, and it was never accepted for those who practiced homosexual acts within the military to be in any way effeminate.

reply posted on 5-10-2009 @ 11:55 AM by mmiichael

Even as a student studying Greek philosophy I got the sense that the idyllic life of intellectual Athens was a retrofitted fantasy like the days of King Arthur and chivalry, the progressive Renaissance, the American Wild West.

The past was rough, and rougher the further back you go. Worlds where ignorance, suffering, slavery, disease, a complete lack of human rights and dignity, were the norm.

But Athens managed to find a time for men to examine things beyond basic day to day survival and develop a culture that supported it. So we can all be grateful we had a head start on philosophy, science, ethos, politics.

We have the luxury to examine beyond our immediate need now. Another Golden Age which future historians will show had some terrible things going on simultaneously.

That doesn't negate the advances.

Mike

reply posted on 5-10-2009 @ 12:21 PM by Hanslune

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas

Howdy Spartan

You might find the book; War Before Civilization by Lawrence H. Keeley, of interest

[edit on 5/10/09 by Hanslune]

reply posted on 5-10-2009 @ 12:47 PM by SpartanKingLeonidas

Originally posted by Hanslune

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas

Howdy Spartan

You might find the book; War Before Civilization by Lawrence H. Keeley, of interest

[edit on 5/10/09 by Hanslune]

Thank you.

War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage

It is is now on my list to read with the host of other books I have backed up.

The Art of War was by far my most favorite book, I have read many, many interpretations.

I turned it into the Art of Peace for myself, and utilize my knowledge to stop conflict.

reply posted on 5-10-2009 @ 12:50 PM by cenpuppie

reply to post by titorite

So... where did this Dr Scott, get his time machine to do these studies?

He probably got that time machine the same place the other historians got theirs to create the mythical greek legends. We got to remember that all we know is what was passed down written in books (after the fall of greece, the language wasn't written for about 400 years, until Rome appeared)

It sounds to me more like a relatively no name archeologist just wants a name for himself and a few dollar on the side by scandalizing the commonly accepted history of Greece

It sounds like to ME that someone is doing their homework. Don't you think he knows he'll be laughed when he brings forth his theory? You just highlighted what the problem, i'll quote you "scandalizing the commonly accepted history of Greece"..you see it!?

What you and i know is simply what we've been told about Greek history. The greeks are infamous for making things bigger than they were. So my question to you is HOW do you know what you've been taught is the truth?

EDIT: Has anyone bothered to read this guy blog? Just google his name and you'll get, thats how i ran across it. I like it because he states in his blog that the media outlets that covered his book are taking things outta proportion, so to speak. He's not trying to devalue anything, just covering what we don't know about those figures. Man people are quick on the draw but slow on the trigger..

[edit on 5-10-2009 by cenpuppie]

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