Looks like Lisbon is a GO, page 2

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reply posted on 3-10-2009 @ 08:33 AM by Yossarian

Middle class were Yes voters while the working class voted No, seems to be the general consensus.

reply posted on 3-10-2009 @ 08:47 AM by Dynamitrios

reply to post by octotom

Then why vote anyway, if this is going to be forced down peoples throats?
To give us an illusion of "freedom of choice"? Ridiculous.

[edit on 3-10-2009 by Dynamitrios]

reply posted on 3-10-2009 @ 09:32 AM by Extant Taxon

EU fascist strategy: If at first you don't succeed, try, try again...

reply posted on 3-10-2009 @ 02:33 PM by ImaginaryReality1984

It has at least been interesting to watch. After the initial no vote the Irish government went into overdrive. They hammered the press, adverts in every paper and debates on tv often to convince the peopel that they were wrong to vote no. They spun the treaty as this great thing that would really help Ireland, just like they did with the Euro and that has not helped the average Irish person out.

This treaty is a mistake many will say that this is not a president of a european state i would say simply that things in modern times, in western society move slowly. Coups and the overthrow of long held systems are not the methods by which the powerful take control. The powerful long ago realised that the ordinary people have the real strength. They understood that the people could revolt and stop any violent plan in it's tracks.

So the powerful, instead of playing checkers moved to chess. They advance with strategies designed to suck the majority of normal people in, to trick them like any good con artist and make them ask for what the powerful want them to ask for. Right now Europe is being positioned into becoming one powerful state. It will probably take another hundred years before it is truly declared a country but that is how things are going.

Doing it this way means that their goals are achieved more slowly but when achieved they are supported by the people and so they are secure.

Many people don't believe in a NWO, i myself doubt an organised NWO. I just believe that the powerful will organise things in their own self interests, like most humans would. I must admit i cannot think of a way out of it anymore, the powerful have won.

[edit on 3-10-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

reply posted on 3-10-2009 @ 02:53 PM by Freedom ERP

I have a podcast about Democracy - EU Style and focuses on why the Irish people were asked to vote again on The Lisbon treaty and what this means for democracy in the EU

reply posted on 3-10-2009 @ 03:34 PM by mcmauro

I can't help myself but just love all the wright wingers and anti EU members, that seem to be the most recent conspiracionists that sudenly have found their vocation in politics, or towards the NWO (a thing that they know nothing about in the times of Bush / Blair).

The People of Ireland has voted and said a redundant YES! Where do you get the word anti-democratic?? Or are you so much superior and stating that the people is stupid? Reminds me of some South American and African regimes , they don't need referenduns...

I' m very happy that the people that post here such non-senses are not in power...

reply posted on 3-10-2009 @ 03:38 PM by Extant Taxon

Empty vessels always seem to make the most noise....

If only such "non-sense" was accompanied by adherence to grammar and sentence structure. It may help. Some logic wouldn't go amiss either.

reply posted on 3-10-2009 @ 03:47 PM by mcmauro

reply to post by Extant Taxon

The fascist strategy don't try again, impose it!

And for my grammar, English is not my first language, as for my logic is just the logic of the votes, we are not in Afeghanistan where the Brits and Americans "don't" manipulate the votes...

reply posted on 3-10-2009 @ 03:50 PM by octotom

reply to post by Dynamitrios

I fail to see how this treaty is being forced down the throats of the people of Ireland. So far, with 59% of the vote in, 67% of the people say yes. These people could've just as easily voted no.

reply posted on 3-10-2009 @ 03:56 PM by Extant Taxon

Yes, you fail to see.

reply posted on 3-10-2009 @ 04:29 PM by Freedom ERP

reply to post by octotom

You fail to see that the Irish people have already spoken and voted NO 16 months ago.

And who is paying for this vote? The Irish people? Just what the Irish taxpayers wants.

reply posted on 3-10-2009 @ 04:38 PM by mcmauro

reply to post by Freedom ERP

I understant that.

So why did they care to vote the second time, where they forced?

reply posted on 3-10-2009 @ 04:41 PM by CannotGoHome

I cannot for the life of me grasp why so many people place any value what so ever in ANY political voting process. Regardless of voter turnout
>> Those who control the counting, control the outcome. <<

Please dont preach Democracy to me, us mere citizens can be promised anything during an election fiasco, most if not all of the promises get broken. This has been proven time and again. Our so called democracy ends up with a select few (read. dictatorship) having the right to change laws without any discussion with the people. The so called members of parliament or congress are bought and paid for and any aspirations of fighting for the people are quickly snuffed out by the party bullies.

The Irish `vote` is another in a long history of make believe politics to fool the masses it is for their benefit, when in reality it matters not. TPTB do what they want anyway.

reply posted on 3-10-2009 @ 04:47 PM by octotom

reply to post by Freedom ERP

You fail to see that the Irish people have already spoken and voted NO 16 months ago.

No, I understand that the people voted already. But, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not aware of any provision that says that a bill can only be voted on once and that's it. Never again.

Ireland voted 16 months ago. Fine. This issue, 16 months later, was put onto the ballot. Where is the problem in that? Yes, the outcome is different this time. But, each side had to campaign, and the yeses won this time. Democracy in action.

I wonder if this same, "it was forced on the Irish!" talk would be going on it the Irish had voted no.

And who is paying for this vote? The Irish people? Just what the Irish taxpayers wants.

So is the nature of democracy. Someone's gotta pay for voting.

Don't forget, that it's the Irish people that voted in those in their legislature that voted in favor of having this treaty voted on. So, if the Irish are going to be upset that this has to be paid for, they have no one to blame but themselves.

reply posted on 3-10-2009 @ 05:12 PM by Ferris.Bueller.II

Personally, I'm hoping for a 'Yes' so modern day Western Europeans can experience dictatorial Socialist oppression that they are so hungry for.

reply posted on 3-10-2009 @ 05:25 PM by Freedom ERP

reply to post by octotom

No, I understand that the people voted already. But, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not aware of any provision that says that a bill can only be voted on once and that's it. Never again.

Ireland voted 16 months ago. Fine. This issue, 16 months later, was put onto the ballot. Where is the problem in that? Yes, the outcome is different this time. But, each side had to campaign, and the yeses won this time. Democracy in action.

No. This is far from democracy in action. The Irish people have already voted and rejected the treaty. This should have been the end of it but no, The EU have forced Ireland to hold another vote. The decision that the Irish people made 16 months ago should have been respected by the EU. And where is this going to end? A rerun of the recent German election because someone does not like the result?

I wonder if this same, "it was forced on the Irish!" talk would be going on it the Irish had voted no.

But this vote was forced on the Irish people because they "dared" to oppose the EU dream. This vote should never have taken place.

So is the nature of democracy. Someone's gotta pay for voting.

Don't forget, that it's the Irish people that voted in those in their legislature that voted in favor of having this treaty voted on. So, if the Irish are going to be upset that this has to be paid for, they have no one to blame but themselves.

Unnature democracy! Why should Ireland have to incur the cost of this forced vote? Just what the country needs when it is in debt and attempting to come out of a recession.

reply posted on 3-10-2009 @ 05:32 PM by Yossarian

Irish Prime Minister today:

"The Irish people have spoken with a clear and resounding voice,"

Just like last time, eh?

Anyway, nothing to see here any longer. Need to turn our attention to Poland and the Czech Republic who can still throw a spanner in the works.

reply posted on 3-10-2009 @ 09:10 PM by Mikey84

Originally posted by Yossarian

Anyway, nothing to see here any longer. Need to turn our attention to Poland and the Czech Republic who can still throw a spanner in the works.

I doubt it, Poland only hadn’t signed off on it as they didn’t see a point if Ireland was voting No. They’ll do it pretty quickly now.

Both houses of the Czech parliament have ratified the treaty, it’s only the President who has to sign it now (who is Anti-EU), he stated that he would not sign the treaty until Ireland had ratified it, plus with the pressure of the Yes vote, the Czech people and the Czech Government, it will probably be sorted quickly, it has been applied to put it through the courts by some Czech senators, which could slow it down a bit, but doubt it will have much effect. Plus considering the Czech president is not popular among the Czech people and the majority of Czechs are Pro-EU, I think it will go through pretty quickly.

Mikey

[edit on 3/10/2009 by Mikey84]

reply posted on 4-10-2009 @ 01:16 PM by octotom

reply to post by Freedom ERP

The Irish people have already voted and rejected the treaty. This should have been the end of it but no, The EU forced Ireland to have another vote.

It's not like two weeks after they rejected the treaty the first time, the EU "made" the Irish go and vote again. Besides, the EU, due to Ireland's Constitution, couldn't have made this immediately go to be voted on. It had to be okayed by Ireland's legislature.

The decision that the Irish people made 16 months ago should have been respected by the EU.

Where is the statute saying that this could only be voted on once and never again? The EU did respect the previous vote by not going ahead and implementing their plans without Ireland's approval anyway. At any rate, it was put up to ballot. The Irish people still could've said no. Apparently, they think differently now.

And where is this going to end? A rerun of the recent German election because someone does not like the result?

Elections are rerun in republics. It just so happens that when you're electing people, they have a term limit, unlike a referendum, which can happen at anytime.

I'd love to hear the people in my county here in Germany say every four years, "Wha? Why are they making us vote again! We voted before! That's what we wanted! Leave us alone!!!!!"

But this vote was forced on the Irish people because they "dared" to oppose the EU dream. This vote should never have taken place.

Again, why? Where does it say that a referendum can only be voted on once and never again? The only logic behind this is, "the people voted a year and a half ago! It's done!" It's almost like people can't change their minds or something.

By the way, this "EU dream" that is going to go in effect with the Lisbon Treaty doesn't seem pretty big. President of the European Council (not EU), a more streamlined EU parliament, an office to create a unified EU foreign policy, and (gasp) making it easier to get out of the EU. Scary. The EU has been grabbing power from the nations for a while now, before the Treaty of Lisbon. This really isn't going to change things much.

Unnature democracy! Why should Ireland have to incur the cost of this forced vote?

Because they're in the EU, perhaps? When they joined the club and amended their constitution to make it so that something like this must be voted on by the people (which in my opinion is a good thing), they should expect that from time to time, this is going to happen.

If the people don't like it, they either:
1. Get of the EU and not worry about it anymore.
2. Change their constitution so that they don't have to vote and incur the cost.
3. Elect people to the legislature that are anti-EU or at the very least won't let things like this pass through the legislature to be voted on by the people.

reply posted on 4-10-2009 @ 08:59 PM by dracodie

reply to post by mcmauro

I guess its fine and dandy by some people, that electorates were castrated in most countries , so that the treaty could be ratified without many problems.

And thank god that those "ungrateful" Irish citizens finally voted yes