Do You have a Credit Card? A Loan? A Mortgage? Then you are equally at fault for the Economy.

if this is mostly about british credit card and mortgage debt, just be grateful to know that at least you are allowed squatter's rights over there. here in the usa, it's against the law. so when our gasoline goes up to 10 dollars a gallon, and we can no longer afford to drive to our 15 hour a week jobs that pay minimum wage, we won't be able to camp in the foreclosed and vacant house down the street. we'll have to come to britain if we want a place to live.

can you imagine, millions of americans showing up in england looking for squatter's rights. now THAT would be ironic. a sort of reverse 1770's. we could come back with signs saying HI MOM! (to the queen ya know).

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by ecoparity
I get it. Because everyone isn't willing to vote how you think they need to in order to fix things or perhaps pick up guns and start a revolution we're all getting what we deserve.

Quite so. People have no right to complain about the situation if they have done nothing to try and remedy it. Obviously there are outliers, and I don't doubt that many of those outliers are the people on this site. The vast Majority of the population, however, doesn't give a damn until it hurts them instead of their neighbor. In fact, the vast majority still doesn't give a damn, and won't until the unemployment numbers and inflation actually starts to truly work its way through society. They view the tent cities as a disgusting blight on their day.

I get the impression you really don't know how the financial system and credit works and to be honest, most of the people pointing fingers at joe public and taking that position all seem to be people who have bad credit and were unable to get a credit card or a sub prime mortgage. They want to jump up and down and act like they were more intelligent than everyone else by not using credit, blah, blah.

I quite understand the financial and credit systems. I've been trying to draw attention to the Credit Bubble as a source of economic collapse for years. You can go through posts from when i registered on ATS and find as much.

You need to draw a distinction between who is responsible and who needs to fix it. The people need to wake up, face reality and start doing something. I'll agree with you on that but the responsibility for this mess doesn't lie with the consumer.

Thank you, then we both agree on at least one thing. The responsibility does like with the consumer though because they are the ones who made the decision to buy beyond their means. The banks are not innocent, no, but you cannot blame them for simply leading people into credit: people are not gullible children. They made their choices without a damn for the consequences.

If this is all the fault of the consumer then apparently the people aren't the ones who need to have been doing something about it, by your logic the banks should have been the ones to stand up to all these greedy consumers.

No, because the banks are also as fault. The analogy of a drug user and the dealer is quite appropriate for this specific part of the overall societal collapse we are experiencing. You do no need credit, you took it anyways, now you are complaining that the banks gave you the credit and you abused it.

I think you just like to take the piss out of people.

I grew up on the bleeding edge of poverty, watching as society lived exorbitantly beyond its means and treated my mother like crap for only being able to provide the bare necessities to her children and refusing to go into debt so we could dress in Dolce & Gabbana and have all the latest games. You could say less that I like ripping into people, and more that I am sick of them complaining now that their debts are due.

I'd suggest some research into the terms "predatory lending" and "usury" unless you're just enjoying yourself by exploiting the anger and pain of those who are being affected the most by all this.

Don't need to, I know full well what they refer to. You cannot blame the global credit situation on predatory lending. Although, given the amounts the banks have loaned over the past several decades it should not be surprising to anyone that they would eventually institute Usary level interest to try to recoup the losses on defaulted payments.

The only thing I can agree with you on is that people really need to wake up and realize who is behind them, what they're up to back there and which elected "representatives" are bringing the popcorn and soda.

Then again, we can agree on another thing. Really, that's the whole point of this thread is trying to be about, what many of my threads are about. Trying to get people to wake up and admit that they are not the innocent and wronged parties in the global situation. Trying to get people to admit that through their own apathy and inaction they have incriminated themselves just as heavily as the easy targets of banks and government that they like to point the finger out. No one is innocent in this, and since the people had the power to stop it decades ago by sheer refusal to submit, they are the guiltiest of all.

Arguing with people who take that position is a waste of time, that I've concluded after wasting my own right along with the rest of you.

The OP is making the old "she got what she deserved" argument. As crude as that is and I apologize but that really is the gist of his position on this.

I share the frustration, I really do. We still have way too many people who think Obama or Republican X are going to make a difference. A lot of people are still completely oblivious to the realities of our modern political / financial / power structure and sadly the conspiracy theory attachment to the opposition just seems to make them sleep even harder.

Look at the Hardin, Montana mercenary thing. Alex Jones has jumped on that story with two big feet and because of that the sheep think the entire thing is a hoax of some kind. In some ways, we're our own worst enemies.

In order to really change the system people will need to get organized and from what I've seen the powers that be are too good at breaking down any such movements. It's going to take one very large, genuine grass roots upswell to even stand half a chance. Don't give up but don't ignore the reality of what we're up against.

The banks are pushing people into default on purpose. They plan to go back to the Whitehouse and complain about how they're getting soaked by the evil consumers who are defaulting on credit. They'll use it as an excuse to pass even worse bankruptcy and collections laws which will allow them to take anything you have for as long as it takes, probably for life by the time they're done tacking on decorative interest and penalties. (These bankers are the ultimate power behind the IRS, don't forget that and look what they are capable of to collect a buck).

In the short term the banks will get taxpayer payouts equal to 1000 times the original debts and in the long term they will get to collect those debts all over again even if it means you pay for life. Maybe when that happens the public will finally wake up and decide enough is enough. . .

So if I'm paying my car loan at or above the monthly ammount, on or before the day it's due I'm to blame for this?

I think what you mean is, if you're irresponsible you're to blame.

reply to post by ecoparity


I Agree with you 100%. Heck, I won't deny that that is the basis of the original post, that's a perfect summary of it. What you outlined as the plan the banks have is 100% spot on, and it's completely and utterly vile. I even gave your post a star, because its completely correct.

reply to post by D.E.M.


Your entire position is based on the premise that everyone abused the system and overspent, etc, etc.

That's just not true. The majority of consumers use credit as it's meant to be used and make payments on time. The people staging revolt are these same people who are now being told they're going to have to pay double or triple for no reason.

The very banks who took bail outs are the ones who are raising interest rates on consumers, the majority of the time without a valid, legal reason. These consumers have no recourse, no representation on this. All they can do is complain to government but by the time someone actually does something (if they even do anything) it's too late.

This argument that they shouldn't have used credit, they're getting what they deserve and so on is just unreasonable. If you were talking about the minority of consumers who overspent you'd have a point but you're applying it across the board which is not valid.

I'm done. Like I said, you can't argue with someone who takes the "she deserved to get raped" tactic. It makes you feel morally superior and all that but its just plain wrong.

[edit on 2-10-2009 by ecoparity]

reply to post by D.E.M.


Banks create money. Out of debt.
Let's say I have only 100 $ and I give them to John. You come and ask me for a loan. I say "I can give you 90$". And using my super bank computer - I put 90$ electric money (bits) on your card. Done.

I only had 100$ and I already gave them away. But I created the 90$ out of nothing - because I counted the 100$ as - an "Asset". Using the "fractional reserve" thing I am allowed to create money based on that debt. And so on and so on.

This is what banks do. If you are trying to "fix" the system - it's like fixing the engine but the wheels on the car are square. Yes my explanation may not be complete - but this is what's going on. If I was not a bank - I would be in jail for giving you what I don't have. And demanding you pay me back with interest !

Google Video Link

[edit on 2-10-2009 by pai mei]

Lots of good points made on both sides of this issue. Bottom line fault lies both on the consumers and the banks. Consumers were optimistic that things would keep improving and that they could handle there debt payments. Banks didn't bother screening properly because they were just going to sell the loan to some unsuspecting sucker (like the Chinese).

Folks that took the loans with no intention to pay them back are criminals. People who had every intention of paying off their loans, and due to later circumstances are unable, are not criminals in any sense of the word.

Not paying back your debt if you are unable is perfectly legal in the USA. In fact, I encourage anyone who cannot handle their debt and have no immediate prospects of being able to do so, to go ahead and declare Bankruptcy. Chapter 13 is an option that only applies to unsecured debts like credit cards. Homes are not included. If you can't afford your home payment either, then your only recourse is Chapter 7 and you'll likely lose your house. Chapter 13 looks at your income and expenses and puts you on a 3 or 5 year plan where you pay back whatever your income allows. After 3 or 5 years the debt is gone for good. After 7 years you can get credit again and hopefully you have learned your lesson.

It sucks to do so, no one likes to stiff creditors, but it is a better choice than facing a lifetime of debt servitude. There are reasons these laws are on the book. Take advantage if you need to. The sooner you leave your debts behind you the sooner you can become a meaningful participant in the economy again. That why we have the law. It benefits society as a whole. It's not fair to the rest of us if you don't. Without you spending we have fewer jobs, which just leads to more people being unable to handle their debt. For the good of America put your debt behind you. if you cna pay it. pay it. If you can't pay, take the gas and declare BK. Despite the moral dilemna, it is really the right thing to do.

reply to post by sligtlyskeptical


they need to go back to jubilee. once every 40 years, all debts were wiped, otherwise the top richest people would own everything and have no way of generating new money and their constituents would get restless ya know.

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by sligtlyskeptical

 

they need to go back to jubilee. once every 40 years, all debts were wiped, otherwise the top richest people would own everything and have no way of generating new money and their constituents would get restless ya know.

Jubilee is the premise of the 7 year rule on Bankruptcies, the Collection of Debts and how long an adverse item on your Credit Report can remain to haunt you.

The problem is that in this Information Age, that data actually remains indefinitely, likewise Debt Collectors have found ways around those regulations by tacking on a new fee to make an item active when it passes the 7 year mark, or by trading or selling Debt to someone else so that they can pursue collecting it for another 7 years.

reply to post by fraterormus


AND you can be barred from getting jobs due to bad debts! that's the newest surprise.

that one was from the pit of hell.

Originally posted by D.E.M.

Good to know I'm not at fault, the only one of those things I have is a credit card, and Iv never used it.

reply to post by Raverous


wait up. what he's saying makes no sense whatsoever. the entire financial system of the business world is based on nothing but debt. if you don't have debt, you aren't participating in the economy, nor are you moving ahead, you're only staying in one spot, which you may still be deprived of regardless.

like those people who fell for the ponzi scheme, lost their life SAVINGS. it wasn't debt, it was SAVINGS. poof, gone. better to use their money than let them use yours. i think we forgot that somewhere down the line ,when we decided the solution to poverty was to put it into the hands of the feds. silly us.

Well I have a reply to that bit Sir.
I'm 50 yrs old. I have never had a credit card. Never had a mortgage.
Hated having a bank account every time I had one. Don't have one now.
So what if I'm a "no account".
The first loan I ever had thru a bank,(a used 1974 datsun pick up) I paid off,
never missed a payment.
The second loan for a brand new nissan 4x4, 4 yr loan 1980.
I roofed houses back then made a great living, By 84 the reagan yrs were
having a direct effect on my income. Towards the end of that loan. I
had fallen 2 weeks behind for the last 3 payments. Stayed in touch
with the bank thru out. last payment I was still 2 weeks behind.
I put the last payment in the mail.
The next morning I went out to go to work, my truck was gone.
A week later I got my last payment back in the mail.
They took a truck worth six grand (dispite my communicating with them
told them where I had recently moved to the whole bit) for a &200 payment. I was late by 2 lousy weeks.
I pleaded with them on the phone that this was devestating to me
and my family.
I lost everything a man could possibly lose starting from there.
I have hated the backstabbing bastards and their whole rigid system
of slavery ever since.
My hate for the banks taught me how to think, how to live, how to breath without them.
The only use I have for a bank these days is to rob one.
If I thought I could get away with it, I most definetly would.
I would find pride in it, being born in the same town Jesse James died in.
Thats the hate they create. Not us.

reply to post by randyvs


eek, dude! i'm so sorry that happened to you!
ugh. i think we should create a country wide store where we buy goods and services from each other by barter or whatever. maybe recreate the original economy that the us was founded on . i'd love to have a nice native american tapestry or some of their fine silver/turquoise/coral jewelry. i'd love to have fresh fruits and veggies from organic farms. or a beautiful painting someone created. superbly crafted carved wood mantle. and so on and so on. there has to be away to bypass the craziness of this downward spiral we are all in.

[edit on 2-10-2009 by undo]

reply to post by undo


Don't get me wrong on this, I love the way you're thinking.
From what I know, if they saw anything like that spring up.
They would crush it like a cigarette. They would even
take lives to do it.
They are not people like you and I.
We have been trapped from the start.
They leave only one avenue.
The one that leads to our demise, the avenue of violence.
Damn I should write a book.
great post though snf

[edit on 2-10-2009 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs


You already fell into the trap the second you decided it would be a good idea to buy a brand new vehicle. In the vast majority of cases, the vehicle is already worth less the minute you sign on the dotted line. You have already wasted money. Compound that by having larger payments over a longer period of time with far more accumulated interest, and well, you may as well be burning your money.

You consciously placed yourself in a position of being indebted and because you missed a payment on that debt, you lost something that didn't actually belong to you anyway. Not the lenders fault.

You should have just bought another 2nd hand truck. You'd have no instantaneous depreciation on it's value and you'd have either bought it outright or paid it of in no time.




[edit on 3-10-2009 by quackers]

Originally posted by quackers
reply to post by randyvs

 

You already fell into the trap the second you decided it would be a good idea to buy a brand new vehicle. In the vast majority of cases, the vehicle is already worth less the minute you sign on the dotted line. You have already wasted money. Compound that by having larger payments over a longer period of time with far more accumulated interest, and well, you may as well be burning your money.

You consciously placed yourself in a position of being indebted and because you missed a payment on that debt, you lost something that didn't actually belong to you anyway. Not the lenders fault.

You should have just bought another 2nd hand truck. You'd have no instantaneous depreciation on it's value and you'd have either bought it outright or paid it of in no time.




[edit on 3-10-2009 by quackers]

My philosophy has always been "If I can't buy it outright I can't afford it and don't need it." Albeit I'm still pretty young, it's served me well. Iv got friends who are barely out of high school and they'll be paying off debt until they're 60.

Originally posted by quackers
reply to post by undo

 

Again, I'm going to have to disagree. Show me where the law tells me that I should own a 4 bedroom detached house. Show me where the law says that I should have 2 cars for every family member as well as all the insurance ect that comes with those. Show me where the law says I should own a PS3 and and 360 and all the latest titles for those. Show me where the law says I should own a contracted mobile phone. Show me where the law says it's illegal for me not to own a credit card.

While it sucks that you seem to have gotten the crap covered end of the stick in life, your issues should be dealt with by a fair welfare system. A system that ensures you are living above the poverty line. I would also go as far as to say that your case is not representative of the whole, simply due to the contributing factors. Most people do not get into debt becuase they absolutely have no other choice, they get into debt becuase they think they can get away with living above their means. The two are not the same thing, even if the end result is similar. One is through choice, you appear to have had no choice, and as such this thread is not about you, or people in a position similar to yours.

well, can't show you any laws about those things you have listed....I can think of a few...

many employers have policies regarding employee absences, basically if you miss so many days in a row, you are required to have a doctors note...
there's a bus company in the city I live in that has recently adopted a rule that if you miss, you must be home, because they will call to check you are there and heaven help you if you are not I guess....but then, if you are sick, you must bring a doctor's note when you come back to work??? ummm...ya, all the doctors out there are making house calls now!!
schools do the same thing, had my son twist his ankle, he did this while I was watching, I knew he didn't need a doctor. he didn't want to go to school because he had gym, so I called the school, thinking that if I talked to them, they would excuse him from gym that day. ya, right, was told he'd need a doctor's excuse, well, we didn't have the money for that, so he just stayed home that day!!!

My kids are grown now, but I have heard the stories about what they were required to have for school....I think it was something like ten boxes of tissues, along with a bunch of other stuff, some were saying it cost them close to a hundred just to fullfill the schools demands!

and well, let me ask you this, as many of you know, I can't really afford the healthcare out there, I don't believe you can either really, I think either you have a really good insurance policy or you are just lucky enough not to get real sick or hurt! but, well, I have decided awhile back, if I can't afford it, I ain't getting it. I am going to work every day with a hernia that about doubles in size while I am at work. well, I got a feeling one of these days it's going to much, much worse, and I am going to be doubled over in pain with them all insisting on me going to the doctor, which, I am more than likely going to refuse to do!! so, I am going to be hauled before the psychiatrists to determine if I am sane or not when this happens, and they can then just determine I ain't and force me to spend the money I know I don't have?

one of those credit cards I have is just for any medical bills that I may have to incur.....one visit, three tests...nine months paying it off before I would go back!!! nine months of watching that little lump in my stomach grow in size I might add.

there's alot of ways society has found to force you to spend money you don't have.....try getting a job without a phone, without a car, without decent clothing...(decent clothing can be bought at your local goodwill by the way!)

reply to post by quackers

yes, and don't you just love the way the cash for clunkers just sucked the people into that trap???
and now they are whining, car sales are down...gee, didn't take a rocket scientist to foresee that one! I did, I also foresee a few defaults on those loans that were made!
not to mention we might have a few problems next time we go to buy our next used car because they've been crushed!!

oh, well, guess we should feel good about our tax money being used to make a few car companies and a few people happy for a few months!!

just wondering, anyone see any bridges getting fixed anywhere??