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Debtors Revolt M Beginning

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posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 12:06 PM

Originally posted by Jessicamsa
Where do you get that mortgages are not dissolvable by bankruptcy?

And student loans can have forebearances and deferments applied to them to keep from having delinquency on them. Plus, under extreme circumstances (although it's hard to do) sometimes you are able to get rid of student loans under a bankruptcy.

My aunt is a mortgage specialist, my mom is a loan officer, and my brother in-law is a financial executive. College loans carry the weight of a mortgage, and they can not be dissolved by a bankruptcy. Mortgages and Taxes are also not allowed to be dissolved by a bankruptcy. Someone in the family had a similar situation; thus, we covered all the basis only a few months ago. They managed to beat foreclosure by selling their house.

If you are delinquent on a student loan or mortgage, it will stay on your credit report from 7 to 11 years. If they go through a bankruptcy, your credit report will show it for 11+ years. If you have two mortgages on your credit report, they will resolve within 11 to 20 years.

Even though a person files for bankruptcy, all prior delinquent marks will remain on the credit report.

To original poster:
My suggestion: Sell the house, pay off the mortgages and credit cards, and move in with family. Prevent the bigger damage now, or your family will pay in the long run.

[edit on 2-10-2009 by Pathos]

posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 12:07 PM

Originally posted by Jessicamsa

Originally posted by VitriolAndAngst
The Student loans should stop requiring payment/interest (I think) if you are enrolled in any course at all. So find anything accredited of interest to you that his cheap, and take the course -- you should save more in stopping the interest accruals.

It depends on the type of the loan. Subsidized loans won't accrue interest. The government pays the interest on those when in deferment. Unsubsidized loans accrue interest.

Thanks for the clarification.

I think the whole concept stinks, however. Our society gets back many times what it spends on education.

Business gets an educated worker, but the worker, pays for their own education -- that might seem right, but we compete with other countries that charge their corporations for educating the public.

Germans spend half as much on their health care as we do, and get it when they want it. They have their education covered.

If WE forced our system to do the same -- we would be much better off. But so many want to shift the costs to the public and we call this "progress."

What do WE get from all the sacrifice to "be competitive?" We are stuck holding the bill.

posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 12:10 PM
The problem is that people are used to be exploited by the banks. Is amazing how most of the people think that banks have the right to get their money back with 29-30 % profit sucking their lives and throwing them on the street. It's part of the system and we have it in our blood by now. No matter what, the system has won over us. There is no more sense of humanity and caring for the next ( actually I wonder when it ever was). All this greed, sick to the stomach hunger for money and power is never gonna end. And we keep on asking why are we so doomed as society and human race. We hate each other, we have that masochist tendency of enjoying being blood sucked and tortured. Nobody comes with a solution what to do to stop this nightmare that's happening. And to stop it we all have to say STOP to the banks. We're not going to pay anymore. What are they going to do? Arrest everybody, jail all of us? If this is the future, we have to fight it. Otherwise we deserve to perish as human race. We're becoming a plague to this planet.

[edit on 2-10-2009 by Telos]

posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 12:11 PM

Originally posted by John_Q_Llama

Originally posted by sticky
reply to post by John_Q_Llama

There isn't anything we can do about the collapse. It is going to happen. I know that everyone doesn't believe everything I do about what's going on in the world around us. My beliefs aren't dependent on yours, thank goodness

I suggest you dig for truth. It is very liberating.

And yes, even this is connected to it.

Please, enlighten us with this truth you mentioned.

I am well aware that we cannot do anything about the collapse. But that doesn't mean we, the common citizen, are dismissed from the moral obligation to do what is right.

You expressed a gladness that your beliefs aren't dependent on mine. Well I have to express a gladness that my moral compass isn't dependent on yours. It is my belief that credit cards and debt are terrible things that has allowed me to stay away from both for my entire life. I am very careful, responsible, and frugal with my money, and I only spend the money that I possess or, on the two occasions I did have loans, I was very very cautious in determining whether or not I'd even be able to pay them off within a year. Right now I can say without a doubt that my wary view of credit, along with my high level of responsibility in spending my own money, have proven to be well worth it. I've been out of work for almost a year now and still have plenty of money set aside to continue living the way I have been since I began living on my own in the "real world". So I fail to see how my beliefs, my being responsible, and my distaste for debt and credit are somehow wrong if they've helped me to stay out of financial trouble.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, Sticky. I respect you and your beliefs, whatever they might be. But just try to realize that perhaps there are other views which might make sense as well.
Whatever the case, I do agree that the credit industry needs a good kick in the crotch, and then a couple hard cracks to the back of the head while doubled over in pain. My way to keep em dissatisfied is not to use credit, while yours happens to be much different. Nothing wrong with that.

The truth is that, 2012 was known to ancient man as the dawning of a new age of human consciouness evolution.

Your religions have been hijacked, since their conceptions. This has created religious slavery. (the ideas teach you, you are less then god, and a sinner and that you must worship god or you will go to hell. this isn't the message Jesus was trying to preach, and it is obvious in his words)

America was founded by the same hijackers, to create the global superpower, monetary haven, and to bring about the NWO. (the NWO is an idea, total planet control)

Over the next few years, there will be more destruction on earth then ever in all of history. No, the world is not going to end on this date, and further investigation clearly disproves all the history channel hype about 2012. However, the reallity that collective consciousness manifests, will be the ultimate decider on what happens after that.

I really could go into each one much more precisely, but so many of you think people like myself are wacko, but wont actually starting looking for the connections yourself.

1 year ago today, had I met myself on the street, I would have thought I was insane too. Realization is amazingly liberating.

To add my own history. I started to wonder to myself about the path of "civilized" man on earth. This began at about age 12 and I began to question why we were taught and even thought we were more civilized then any other ancient people. It was a gut feeling I had, it didn't make sense to me. Who is the judge of what is civilized? Even at this age, I had felt that even animials and the harmony they had with earth seemed more civilized to me then learning about the crusades. Man was out of place here, I surmised.

When I was about 19, I had some interesting feelings about the world, the universe and reality. I was a devout atheist, leading up to this point in my life, and I would argue with anyone about it. Things just didn't seem to add up about god.

around 2002, I stopped paying taxes. I don't know what made me make this crazy decision. I started claiming 6,7,8,9 on all my W-4's and never thinking twice about any possible ramifications. Stupid... right?

2006 I had another horrible feeling about my former home. Ventura, California. I had to leave that place, and it was for my safety to do so.

Feburary 2009, just before I was laid off from my job, A hot topic at the smoking table during break was about these history channel episodes and some Mayan calendar thing and the date 2012.

One night in early March, I did a google search "2012". My life has now been forever changed. 12 hours a day since that night, I have researched everything I was taught, looked at both sides and formed an opinion

The feelings in my heart, my subconcious mind, and my soul had led me to this point. What I ended up finding, mirrored nearly exactly everything I previously thought I had made up myself.

I now attempt to improve myself everyday, in the only way that matters, internally. The purpose of life has been uncovered. This is why many of us are going crazy trying to spread the information.

I'd also like to add that Nassim Haramein had much to do with the final piece of the puzzle that led me to enlightment. Checking up on modern physics after hearing what he had to say, completely sealed the deal.

So, this is the truth, that you aren't supposed to know. When you die, the law of conservation of energy exists, it is transfered, to your spirit, and another journey begins. Thus, making development of it, the purpose of life.

[edit on 2-10-2009 by sticky]

posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 12:14 PM
reply to post by Telos

I agree with your analysis, but it will not solve his immediate issues. Since the financial system will take years to reform, he will not be able to wait that long for help. He has to deal with the rules in place now; thus, he has to work fast to resolve his issues.

[edit on 2-10-2009 by Pathos]

posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 12:27 PM
Sorry if this has been said as I haven't read each post but here in Seattle if you don't pay and you own a home they slap a lean on the property.
I'm not sure of the interest rate for that but it never goes away and the debt amount keeps growing.

posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Cornczech
"If you entered into a contract knowing full well what goes on behind the scenes, still took their money, spent it then called foul when you couldnt pay it back.. sorry, i dont look at it as the banks fault."

Over and over I read about people saying, "If you borrowed the money...." but I am in the position that I didn't BORROW money, ....
I have been reading this thread with complete and utter go people....lets show 'em what TRUE Americans can do when we stick together.....


I don't care if you borrowed the money or not. The banks stole the right to distribute and print money with the Federal Reserve -- it was the province of the Congress to "mint coin." And they still mint quarters, but try to "mint" a metallic twenty and you will get the JFK treatment.

Bankruptcy used to mean; "creditors cannot turn us into peons."

The system we USED TO HAVE, was that creditors took a risk and if you declared bankruptcy -- they lost the money. That's why they have to do due diligence. Or used to. Now they give out loans to illegal immigrants, and then pay Rush Limbaugh to tell you that the Fair Housing Act forced them to make the loan, or to give a NINJA loan to people with good credit. It is a lie -- from beginning to end.

Now, they can give a credit card to a cat. If you cosign for the cat -- they own both of you.

If banks don't like such a system where they take RISK by lending to you -- then give banking back to the government. Really, it wouldn't hurt the country at all for people to try and fail and go into bankruptcy -- in our own internal economy, nothing is created or gained in "value" -- it has to do with the buying power of money and a closed system. If I print more money -- what is in your pocket is worth less. Allegedly, we increase the money supply based upon growth in productivity -- which is you doing more without a raise. In the past 8 years, all growth in this nation was funded through borrowing -- there was no productivity growth.

We have interest and inflation built into our system, because we pay the FED for the privilege of them printing our money. Nice racket. We could have had counterfeiters and they wouldn't have charged us a thing.

The bank spent no money to give you a loan -- it was "money made of thin air" called "factoring." If you put down a dollar in your bank account -- they can loan out ten. When someone forfeits a dollar however -- the leverage works in reverse. The fundamental problem is; all debts can never be paid off or the system collapses, and growth only occurs by creating new debt.

Eventually, the system cannot keep cycling more and more fantasy money to keep the illusion going.

The money we play with, only has value as long as we see it as being a fair exchange for goods and services. But at the very top, they print a trillion and shovel it to banks with no accounting -- just printed up a few trillion last year when nobody was looking. The whole system is a farce, because all the reporting agencies were exchanging credit ratings for consulting fees.

Crooks trading paper with crooks -- and it's over a Quadrillion. There is not enough debt or assets in your loan -- much less the entire CONSUMER economy to matter a bit in the 3 Card-Monte money game that is going on.

But it is all anyone knows so they keep playing it -- however, there is no longer any way to keep score. Your debt is held by a bank that has been lying about its assets and debts for years.

So really, don't look at it as "something you owe" look at it as "they've got me by the short hairs."

>> Selling your house and moving in with your family might be a good strategy. If everybody did this, we'd be controlling a lot more wealth, and not redundantly using resources... however, it would collapse the economy.

But hey, either we limp along forever paying off a debt we did not create -- or we start over and declare Jubilee!

posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 12:49 PM

Originally posted by Cornczech
I suddenly started having grand mal seizures in March.

Sorry, but this is a completely different circumstance.

Medical insurance has nothing to do with credit card debt, unless, of course, you make the bad decision to pay for medical expenses on a credit card.

You can pay off medical expenses at a $1 a month. Period.

As long as you send them something, they can't legally do anything.

Sorry to hear about your particular instance, but it seems you have really bad insurance. Again, that is for another topic, and has nothing to do with not being able to pay off the consequences of poor decision making...

posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 01:04 PM
I'm sorry..I don't see why your rant should make me feel any better, (or that it is anything but a rant)....I am not some politico trying to make a point to further any cause.....l am simply a chic who has medical problems I cannot pay for. In reading some of the tough caca responses.....I just think that we are ALL screwed and I, for one, don't feel ANY guilt at ALL for not paying on bills, (in my case medical). I also have compassion for the credit card guy because those banks GOT their money probably in the first couple of months....NOW, even though I am an atheist, I know why usury is against God's ENSLAVES all you I'm-better-than-you can judge all you want, but you claim not being able to read the fine print is not excuse...I would hope that YOU get caught in a circumstance such as you ridicule...I betcha YOU whine even louder when YOU get caught by the "fine print"....(though I guess it's not right to curse....) I hope you get to see the OTHER side the hard way...
I've been threatened a LOT since becoming ill...and only ONCE in my 43 years have I been sued...and that was for a 35$ delinquent CABLE bill in Salt Lake City around 1994..the 35$ turned into $500.00...and I never paid a dime......I guess I'm a scumbag...but...I agree that things are getting WAY out of hand and though I am no longer a "Christian"....I certainly hope things get evened out in the wash in the end...but isn't it always the poor who pay? Only a few times in history has the elite been able to pay for their crimes..(can you can French Revolution?)

posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 01:21 PM
Sorry, but you're entire argument is somewhat incoherent. I don't really know what your point is.

posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 01:30 PM
I also have to mention that, yes, I now have "bad insurance"...but only 4 years ago that very same insurance company paid for TWO $56,000.00 surgeries, (a hyster and a bowel surgery) and I didn't have to pay a dime!0 OK...I may have to post on another thread....a "medical insurance blows" thread....but I only wanted to make a point that I feel we're ALL screwed...I tell my husband, who pays $100.00 a month MORE that HIS credit Card companies ask...and they STILL raised his rates....and he does all this to "save" his credit rating....meanwhile, I get calls EVERY day from some scam artist, (because that's all these guys that call me daily are) to pay on a debt that I never WANTED to have...and we pay MONTHLY over a hundred dollars a month to be INSURED in case a medical emergency happens...and we STILL are getting screwed financially....anyhow, I guess I am in the "wrong thread"...but I wanted to make the point that not everybody who refuses to "pay the man" is being "irresponsible", (tho' I don't believe that even people who don't pay CC debt are "irresponsible" The banks ARE out to screw us....ALL for the mighty dollar.... sigh...oh well..this is why I am a sullen, "why should I bother" kind of person....cynicism

posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 01:49 PM
reply to post by Azazelus

I think the point of a lot of these posts is thus: It's the evil government, bankers, cc companies, NWO, pick your own boogeyman. I am at the mercy of forces beyond my control, therefore, I am absolved of any personal responsibility for my own actions. Sad, when you think about it. And those of us who play by the rules and succeed, in any way, are fools. And these are people who expect me to hire them.

posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 01:49 PM
I believe the real issue here isn't whether or not one or more people want/can pay off their credit cards, loans, etc. It's really a battle between the common citizen and big companies. Here we are trying to get through each day, some of us living from check to check, others making it a bit more comfortably. Meanwhile the big credit corporations and banks don't care about our individual circumstances. Each person is nothing more than an account number, an account balance, and a potential source of profit. When a person who has the potential to bring a lender above average profit, then they are going to pester that borrower until they pay, regardless of any misfortune or undesirable circumstances that the borrower may be dealing with.

I wonder if borrowing strictly from small, local banks would make any difference. At least then they're a little more understanding and empathetic when someone is going through hard times. The problem is that most of these banks are gone after having been assimilated into the giants that now dominate the industry. I know when I got my two loans, both for cars, I always went to the credit union that my parents belonged to. The folks there were great to work with and the loan officer actually remembered me each time I visited. They seemed to care about me more than someone from, say, Bank of America, where they are more concerned about your account information than you as a person.

posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 01:53 PM
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

Rofl@ Sorry for your hard time, but I don't applaud you for it. If you didn't want debt you should not have taken 'credits'. At the time of taking credit you spend it and now refusing to pay it for whatever personal reason you have is wrong legally and morally. You had a choice not to use that credit card, not to buy a credit card, you chose it and now you will have to pay for it. There is no other way around it wether you like it or not.

posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 02:03 PM
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

So you have lived beyond your means and made dumb investments and now you bitch because you owe too much and can't pay. Only because your cushy lifestyle has been taken away, you decide it's time to revolt. YOU signed up for the credit cards. YOU took out the second mortgage. YOU bought into the time share. You were the sucker. I and and millions more struggle to just keep the electricity on and food in our kids mouths, up to our eyes in debt for the basic things we need to live and you whine because they bumped the interest on a credit card you did not need. Millions have an overpass or a car for a home and you whine because you can't pay your SECOND mortgage. You whine because your wife only makes 8 bucks an hour, what did you spend all your money on? I must assume that a good portion of it was spent on third world made junk that you didn't need and probably don't have anymore made by people that make PENNIES A DAY. You will get no pity from me sir and I will not be a part of your " I just won't pay what I legally owe and knowingly signed up for "revolt. My fight will remain the same , that is the fight against the overindulgent, me first , who cares as long as I'm comfortable mentality that is and has been prevalent in America for decades. You make me sick to my stomach . You and your kind are getting what you deserve!

posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 02:41 PM
I've been credit-free for the last 8-9 years.

Got married young (18 years old), and we amassed a great deal of debt. It seemed like after I got that first credit card everyone wanted to give me credit, and for a while I kept up all my payments meticulously. At 21 my first wife took off on me, and I went nuts with the credit cards, spending like... well, like a divorced 21 year old
Got a car, and a bunch of other crap that I couldn't afford. At 22 the company I was working for went under and I disconnected, moved to another part of the country and started over again (not because of the debt, I was chasing another job). I don't know if I ever made a concious descision to stiff all my creditors, I think it was more of a thing where I just pushed it to the back of my mind. Add to the fact that since I left town I didn't get all the calls and harassment to pay. Skip-tracer came to get my car as I expected, I cleaned it out first and gave them the key, and had already gotten myself a decent used car with cash.

I remarried not too long after and eventually turned into a somewhat respectable citizen, not thinking too much about my credit situation until, ohh.. about the time I was 26 I guess. I knew it was bad, I mean I held no illusions that I'd be able to go out and get a mortgage or anything, in fact it was the exact opposite, when I left all that debt I assumed that I'd never be able to get credit again. My poor credit turned into a joke, I mean we always put our utilities and phone in my wife's name because my foul credit was common knowledge. Anyways when I finally looked at my credit report out of morbid curiosity, they were all still there, thousands of dollars still hanging around my neck. So overwhelming... and by that time I was actually feeling the weight of what I had done, but there was little I could do about it. This was 5 years after the fact and the amounts owed were so rediculous and inflated it was rediculous.

So I packed it up and didn't think about it again until earlier this year when we were looking at getting new cell phones and without really thinking about it I put my name on the app and it was accepted! It seems that ALMOST everything fell off sometime in 09, except for a 191 dollar MCI bill that somehow "renewed" itself. Hell I'd actually pay those poor SOB's their 191 dollars for sticking it out if I knew that the original creditors would see a penny of it. So what did I do next? GO SHOPPING!!! Haha, just kidding. I did absolutely nothing, and I still don't even have a credit card.

Looking back, I think it's kind of a blessing that I got into trouble so young. I learned to live off of what I actually make and it never would enter my mind to charge something. I own a pretty nice house in the country free and clear, my own land, two good late model cars and absolutely no payments other than utilities and insurance. Never a worry about ruining my credit because there's nothing to ruin.

I see myself for the no-good deadbeat I was for walking out on my responsibilities back then, but at this point do the mega-banks actually give my written off accounts a second thought? Nah. I would definitely have done it differently given a second chance though.

Live and learn.

posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 04:48 PM
reply to post by zer0pro

You are entitled to your opinions, and I will pay the debts i owed. My total debt is 140,00 with my house. (the scond mortage had tobe takeing out so i could actually get the house) stuff went down hill, I tried to work with my creditors they refused. So screw them, if they want to work with me thats fine I will go back to paying them... I made some mistakes along the way hell im only 27 and learned the hard way (time share hell for 200 a month I figured it would be easy to pay for with both of us working) Yes I was so short sighted. But that is not the point the whole damn point of my litttle revolt is to say I have had enough of your attitude, I have tried to work with they dont want to work with me so screw them... I tried to work through my debt with them they diddnt want. oh and by the way I only make 35,000 a year. SO I am not some rich ass dude. I wouldnt be here if I was I would be hanging out with the bilderberg...

They raised there interst rates on me, hid fees in the contracts so yeah to hell with them

posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 05:26 PM
reply to post by Azazelus

"Why should I have faith in any sort of new system that will be setup by the average joe that couldn't manage his own finances and decided he'd overthrow the current system?"

Perhaps you prefer the status quo. I don't believe that the average Joe can do any worse than the crooks we have in place now. I'll take an honest mistake over the one that was bought.

"What we need to do is get rid of the Federal Reserve first. Then you get rid of the corporations. Then you localize the markets. Then you begin progressing to a more balanced system."

Kind of backasswards in my view. Every revolt begins with one man who is fed up, speaks up and takes action. That's local my friend and it blossoms from there. I agree 100% with what you say I just see the necessity to work locally to build a base then move towards the big targets. With small acts of civil disobedience done locally local courts are clogged and useless to the oligarchs. At the same time everyone should distribute in any way they can this document:

Study the rest of the documents at the fija website and learn what you can and can't do from the jury box. If half of us are sitting on juries while the other half are sitting in front of juries and we're all on the same page as to what we're trying to achieve the machine comes to a grinding halt. Believe it or not the founding fathers foresaw this day and made provisions. We just have to use all of our assets. Learn what you can do as a juror to help the cause.

"The only way to solve the economic system in the US is to reformat the political and social system. But, phase one of the Right's plan to be the bad guy is in full swing... "They want to turn us into socialists!" is now common thought for the sheep on that side... Little do they know, due to ignorance, are that they are to blame for their own sufferings, while the elite from both sides of the political spectrum sit back and laugh..."

There is no left or right, the same people control both sides of the aisle. I do agree theirs is a divide and conquer strategy that pits one side against the other to keep us too busy to observe what the hidden hand is doing. This socialist argument is tripe. We're already socialists and have been since the thirties. Up to a point it's no big deal. I'm very conservative but I still see both the need and benefit of limited social programs that are targeted towards very specific needs- one of which is health care. And yes, we've done this to ourselves. I can only hope that our citizens have learned a valuable lesson and they change their ways. If they haven't then all is for naught.

I don't want to be too rough on people. Though they were willingly led down the path they were lied to by every pillar of our democracy- government, press etc. It's like trying to navigate a course with a bad compass. I have faith that if given the truth our people will make the right decisions and save our republic for the coming generations.

Right now we need to concentrate our efforts on starving the beast and disrupting all the institutions that the oligarchs depend on to keep us under their boot. Imagine 200 million of us engaged in totally disorganized acts of civil disobedience. The machine doesn't know how to deal with such a thing and will lock up. Then it's our turn at bat.

posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 09:18 PM
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

from the original greek:

"καὶ ἵνα μή τις δύνηται ἀγοράσαι ἢ πωλῆσαι εἰ μὴ ὁ ἔχων τὸ χάραγμα, τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ θηρίου ἢ τὸν ἀριθμὸν τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ. Ὧδε ἡ σοφία ἐστίν· ὁ ἔχων νοῦν ψηφισάτω τὸν ἀριθμὸν τοῦ θηρίου· ἀριθμὸς γὰρ ἀνθρώπου ἐστί· καὶ ὁ ἀριθμὸς αὐτοῦ χξϛʹ."

revelation, translated to english:

"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

My total debt to mortgages and banks is $976,000.

I am prepared to walk away too - but by then it won't matter, because

if doctors walk away from hospitals, and police from their posts, we might

as well call it game over...

[edit on 10/2/2009 by drphilxr]

posted on Oct, 3 2009 @ 01:24 AM

Originally posted by concernedcitizan
reply to post by tk1967

That is why one puts aside money for the preverbial rainy day.

Oh, no, I agree... but sometimes that rainy day lasts for a long, long time.

I have 18 months of funds set aside if that were to happen; however, I know of two people who have been unemployed for over 2 years now. Yes, they end up taking a job at Target to keep money coming in, but their skill set that would provide income of substance isn't in demand simply because no company that would require their service is spending. (fortune 200 companies)

Very few people have money set aside for a 6 month "rainy day" let alone a 2 year "rainy day".

Please note, I'm not saying people should just grow debt and not expect to pay it back... I'm saying that there are time, when everything just falls into place, where people simply cannot at that point.

[edit on 3-10-2009 by tk1967]

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