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US Story on Iran Nuke Facility Doesn't Add Up

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posted on Sep, 30 2009 @ 08:22 PM
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reply to post by Sliadon
 


You know I have an article in a thread..........somewhere......and it's in the OP.
I'm still looking for it, but 56% of Iranians recently said they did vote for Ahmadinejad in a US poll. I'm still looking...

You might like this video that exhuberant1 left in a thread.





posted on Sep, 30 2009 @ 08:51 PM
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reply to post by sanchoearlyjones
 





From there We can look at how the actions in Af-Pak have created tensions who are rippling away faster than any butterfly effect ever could have been imagined.


Once again Afghanistan is turning into a grave yard for foreign armies as is always the case. 19 supposed Saudi Hijackers and we attack Afghanistan and Iraq? That's brilliant. Oh but why attack a country we have more or less occupied with Military bases and tens of thousands of U.S. Soldiers since the first Gulf War for something it's citizens have done when we can attack other countries instead and use it as an excuse to occupy them at to give oil and copper contracts to the Chinese, build an Oil Pipeline for Royal Dutch Shell and increase the opium production 100 fold?

War is such a racket and most often Americans are forced to bleed not red white and blue but their hard earned greem to support the racket for a few wealthy despots and tyrants who don't even need the money they are stealing. They steal it just because it's there and to say they did.

What a world Sancho, what a world.



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 11:48 AM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Once again Afghanistan is turning into a grave yard for foreign armies as is always the case. 19 supposed Saudi Hijackers and we attack Afghanistan and Iraq? That's brilliant. Oh but why attack a country we have more or less occupied with Military bases and tens of thousands of U.S. Soldiers since the first Gulf War for something it's citizens have done when we can attack other countries instead and use it as an excuse to occupy them at to give oil and copper contracts to the Chinese, build an Oil Pipeline for Royal Dutch Shell and increase the opium production 100 fold?

War is such a racket and most often Americans are forced to bleed not red white and blue but their hard earned greem to support the racket for a few wealthy despots and tyrants who don't even need the money they are stealing. They steal it just because it's there and to say they did.


The US admin made some enormous blunders in the recent past. But foreign policy is always far more complex than it looks on the surface. The long term one the US has in place does not move to wars and occupation of resource countries. Those are extreme measures and have proven to be more problematic and more expensive than they're worth.

Taking an active position in Central Asia has been on the cards for a long time. Turkey wants it, the need is felt to keep the Russians from encroaching, pipelines and resource sources are thought to need protection, etc.

Arab hijackers did attack the US as part of a strategy of Muslim world interests to engage the US on it's own turf. A few thousand whack jobs trying to prove something else do not alter history.

Overwhelming intelligence and evidence from a dozen countries have precluded other possible scenarios. The fact that the US, Muslim countries, Russia, Europe, China used this event to their advantage wherever possible - is a given. That's what governments are supposed to do.

Like it or not, when officials are elected, their mandate is to further and protect the interests of the people. It's also an unfortunate given they will exploit their position for self gain. We can only hope they don't go overboard.

But whether we like it or not, governments to not inform the public, their allies, their competitors, their enemies, on the rationale of their decisions. The media is utilized to present a version of events. If the US feels the need to support certain countries, and not others, ithere is little advantage to playing poker with all their cards open face.

So far the US has had some success in keeping it's competition at bay, and the most of the resource rich nations on their side.

In a fair world it shouldn't all be about plunder and abuse of others. But also unfortunately, that way of dealing with the rest of the world has made most Americans relatively comfortable economically and secure.

In a ruthless hostile world if America did not enforce it's will others would do it on them. That may not be fair in an ideal world, but this isn't an ideal world.

We can only hope what the US does in places like Central Asia are better than what the local predators would be doing otherwise.

Not engaging in intervention in other parts of the world does not produce immediate peace and prosperity. Just more wars from other sources, more looting, more exploitation from those adjacent.

When you are forced to deal with thieves, lairs, murderers in the form of leadership, the best you can do is hope you are fortunate enough to have one on your side with some notion of keeping things going rather than just grabbing everything and leaving nothing for ordinary people. The US does this in it's own misguided and lumbering way. It's competitors see no value in keeping their ships afloat to the same extent.

Were the US and Europe to behave like it's direct competitions like Russia and China, we all wouldn't be sitting at our computers openly criticizing our governments. But we do, and they don't really care that much. Products are available, communication is open, there's enough wealth generated to keep most of us above the water line.

It's not heaven, but it's infinitely better than the near hell most of the world endures every day.

Hopefully things will gradually become fairer and more equitable than they are today. We've made a lot of progress in that direction in the last decades. We need to focus on moving in that direction faster, not just trashing what has been done to get there.

Current events are like a movie. Easy to watch it all and be a critic. You go out and make a better one - then show people better ways to do what they do. Often hard choices are made because the alternatives are much worse. That the compromised hard reality of human affairs.

Mike

[edit on 1-10-2009 by mmiichael]



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by mmiichael
Taking an active position in Central Asia has been on the cards for a long time. Turkey wants it, the need is felt to keep the Russians from encroaching, pipelines and resource sources are thought to need protection, etc.


While I gave you a star and agree with general spirit of the post, I find this paragraph completely mislead. What the heck is the supreme interest of the United States in Central Asia? Our dependence on these "pipelines" is really minimal. If Turkeys "wants it", heck, I want a chocolate limousine to carry me to work every day, replete with champagne and fashion models. We all "want" things. Russians do not meddle in Mexico, so give them a break and don't meddle in Uzbekistan.



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by buddhasystem
While I gave you a star and agree with general spirit of the post, I find this paragraph completely mislead. What the heck is the supreme interest of the United States in Central Asia? Our dependence on these "pipelines" is really minimal. If Turkeys "wants it", heck, I want a chocolate limousine to carry me to work every day, replete with champagne and fashion models. We all "want" things. Russians do not meddle in Mexico, so give them a break and don't meddle in Uzbekistan.



The Turkish lobby represents the most strategic Central Asian power right now. And they are very adept at keeping attention deflected from themselves.

The US works with those that share interests. Turkey and the US want prime control of the vast resources in the region. They are in strong positions to enforce their will. They have large standing armies and advance weaponry. So people in Turkey and the US will participate more than other in the enormous profits to be made from the natural resources.

Ordinary people like us unfortunately have to sit on the sidelines hoping our chosen gladiators fare well in the arena. We can even benefit personally betting on the outcome. We call it the stock market.

My own feeling is there is a race to tie up contracts and rights in the region before competition drive prices too high. First in first out.

Unfortunately the US handled it's encroachments on Iraq and Afghanistan abominably. The Muslim world invited them in to their turf hoping to belled them dry literally, financially and morally. It's working so far.

But in the end Iraqi and Afghanistani leaders will have to examine their options. The US as an enemy is not the best position to take.


Mike



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 12:58 PM
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reply to post by mmiichael
 


Hey Michael my friend. I still have trouble believing the Arab Hijacker theory. It just doesn't add up unless someone on the inside of our Government or Corporate Power Structure paid them to attack us.

Worked out awful for the Arabs and wonderful for the Government from a control standpoint and even better for the Powers that Be from a profit standpoint.

Israel should be submitting to the same inspection processes as any other nation that's all I know.

Americans should be cleaning up their government and staying at home and restoring our manufacturing base and economy.

Foreign meddlers should find some other nation to meddle in.

Most importantly the Swiss Bikin Team should visit Miami and stay at my house.

I really would prefer to concentrate exclusively on the last part of the agenda, but I really am not sure I can rely on or trust anyone to take care of the other former parts if you catch my drift buddy.

I hope all is well.



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 01:41 PM
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reply to post by Chakotay
 


Here's a story for you, Chakotay. From the 1950s.

You're a nation in the Middle East, and you've just elected democratically a strong leader, much loved by the people.

Said leader decides to nationalize the oil industry of the company, when all oil was under control of a corporation representing a foreign nation.

The foreign nation in question gets mad, and goes to the large superpower of the time across the pond and enlists their spies to concoct a plot.

The plot of the foreign nations succeeds and your democratically elected leader is ousted from power. In his place is a new ruler.

Widespread corruption flourishes in this new government and people will opposing views are monitored closely, and in many cases, tortured and murdered in a secret police.

Here's another story for. From the 1980s. I'll make it short.

You're a dictator in the Middle East at war with a nearby nation. You have vast oil reserves in your country.

In exchange for allowing the aforementioned country's corporate interests to build an oil pipeline in your country, they supply you will weapons - many biological - in order to wage war on said nearby nation

Unbeknown to you, the country you are fighting is also receiving arms from the same country as you, in exchange for some hostages the country took in an attempt to remove that country's dictator that was installed illegally (see story above)

And we wonder why Iran hates us?

We started on them in the 1950s and haven't let up since!



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by mmiichael
Turkey and the US want prime control of the vast resources in the region. They are in strong positions to enforce their will. They have large standing armies and advance weaponry. So people in Turkey and the US will participate more than other in the enormous profits to be made from the natural resources.


I don't like the idea of US using the "large standing army" and "advance weaponry" to serve interests of Big Oil. This is sick, but you seem to be a fan of that.



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by mmiichael
 


Hey Michael my friend. I still have trouble believing the Arab Hijacker theory. It just doesn't add up unless someone on the inside of our Government or Corporate Power Structure paid them to attack us.

Worked out awful for the Arabs and wonderful for the Government from a control standpoint and even better for the Powers that Be from a profit standpoint.

Israel should be submitting to the same inspection processes as any other nation that's all I know.

Americans should be cleaning up their government and staying at home and restoring our manufacturing base and economy.

Foreign meddlers should find some other nation to meddle in.


Proty,

The details of the planning, co-ordination, funding of 9/11 are so well corroborated and so well documented from so many sources - to deny it all verges on idiocy. I don't buy into Kiddie Konspiracy theories. I don't buy into "Bush and Cheney dun it" answers that lack a shred of evidence. My daddy didn't spank me. I don't have lingering anger issues and a need to demonstrate resentment of authority.

How much passive corroboration and foreknowledge by American personnel and interests are the key issues that have to be addressed by the people. The perpetrators and facilitators are overjoyed so many dumbed down Americans can have a bomb shoved up their ass and immediately point their fingers at their government. They won that round hands down. Some Americans like to apologize for them.

The US is a bad cop, but the only one on the block with even a slight notion of decency. You don't want the Russians or Chinese determining how much of the world's wealth is allocated Westward, believe me.

The upside of the disproportionate wealth that has flowed to Europe and America is that we have had the money to buy education with which we were able to enhance our knowledge and capabilities. This has has resulted in incredible technological breakthroughs, radically improved agriculture, almost unbelievable methods of transportation, the harnessing of natural power, modern medicine, and a million consumer prototypes for better quality living. We have things like cars and airplanes because there was a population to support experimentation and mass production.

In the end the world is better off than the feudal era when everyone left each other pretty much alone, but 95% of the population toiled in misery and died in ill health and malnutrition with little sustenance for the soul or mind.

The world is a rough mean street full of gangs vying for control and wealth. It will not become filled with wonderful benign leaders fostering peace and brotherhood if the US withdraws from the scene. With atomic weapon technology now a publicly available commodity, and no one to discourage their abuse, militaries everywhere would merrily be nuking their opponents instead of using conventional means.

As an example, we pay Pakistan's ISI not to nuke India. That's how the world works today. Keeping a bunch of mad dogs on short leashes. Psychotics make notoriously bad babysitters. Don't ever let yourself get charmed by their innocent victim rhetoric. They came to power robbing and raping - eternally hoping to do even more. We have to judge by past actions not platitudinous words. The Arabs tried to destroy Israel. They failed. They either have to do it right or quit whining. Crying innocent victim only gets you so many handouts.

We have to be pragmatic not idealistic in a world run by unsophisticated warlords. That's what, in it's confoundingly obtuse manner, the US tries to do. If there is a better way to maintain security with all the comforts and toys we haven't seen it.

We are now spreading the wealth and the smart players like Japan, Korea, India, even China, know a good thing when they see it.

Vicious thugs like Mr A in Iran, Chavez, Kim, Pakistan's ISI, the managers of the Palestinian franchise, the aging rockstar in Libya, the liberator imbecile in Zimbabwe, all those the mad mullahs and imams, can play in their own sandbox together plotting their schemes while crying Justice. Their people will starve or die in wars. Hopefully the masses will eventually get the message and throw these bums out.

That's what American foreign works towards while trying to keep this gangsters circus from doing to much harm to others and themselves.

Believe me, on a one to one level they're more likely to cut your throat than thank you for your continuing support. That's something they tried to tell Americans on 9/11. They don't want rival gangs cutting in on their proceeds of crime. It's a turf war moved to their neighbourhood now.

When it comes to taking sides in this gang war, better the Devil you know.


Mike



[edit on 1-10-2009 by mmiichael]



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 09:52 PM
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reply to post by mmiichael
 


I don't like any of those sources though Michael and I wouldn't trust them to call Bo Derek a 10 if they saw her in the movie by the same name without getting it wrong and lying about it.

I have access to the best intelligence network on the planet it's called my own two eyes and ears and I wouldn't trust the people telling those fairy tales any more than I would trust in fairy tales.

It's great you like to put that same old 'canned' it helps promote the Powers that Be agenda explanation of the fantasy on the ground but that's all it is, pure fantasy for the sake of validating a counter productive and ultimately ruinous agenda.

Intellgent people know all that Intelligence People is lie, lie, lie through their teeth. Over the years they have been caught lying to congress, lying to the President, lying to judges, lying to their wives and even lying to their dogs, most of all they love lying to themselves because they think the nonsense that they keep advocating and saying is true is going to make the world a better and safer place and all it ever does is have the opposite effect.

I think an elementary school crossing guard could get it righter and better than that collective ensemble of evil geniuses could.

I am pretty sure the average cocker spanniel could put forth a more intelligent take on the situation than that one Michael.

No such thing as a free lunch in this world friend, and information is the most valuable commodity of all, if evil wretches and violent war mongerers are giving it away for free I ain't buying.

Iran is a peaceful nation, Israel and the United States aren't.

Texas executes more people each year than Iran does.

None of the 'official' arguments add up to anything except for 'official' lies.

It's a shame the only thing that sets people free in life is the truth.

Maybe that's why they never tell it to us, they want us all enslaved to their deadly and destructive agenda.

What a shame people don't posses the basic intelligence and wisdom to figure that out.



posted on Oct, 1 2009 @ 10:44 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Maybe you haven't really travelled enough Proty, or spoken to the right people from the right places.


Most people everywhere want little hassle or intrigue in their life.

Problem is when already ambitious people get to the power level of controlling entire countries and vast revenues for those unaccustomed to handling millions and billions, they tend to go over the deep end.

Smart politicians learn you have to limit how much you steal. Say 10-20% of the wealth. Good business practice is to reinvest your earnings into the infrastructure, do what you can to grow, keep the employees happy enough so they don't walk out or push you out.

Sadly Africa and the Middle East is cursed with leadership that shares the same contagion. They don't know when to stop looting the treasury.

The untold story of Saudi Arabia and the Bush family is that every year for decades the Saud family has been pumping hundreds of billions of barrels outside the national revenue stream and Aramco and channeling it through surrogates to Texas based dummy companies at drastically reduced prices.

This was why Saudi interests were given a pass even after elements of the royalty financed 9/11.

Africa is a nightmare due to a dog and pony show of new leaders who usually have taken power offing the previous thug regime. Looting is all they can see, even if it breaks the back of viable potentially wealthy nations.
The IMF saunters in and provides loans which they know will never be repaid by these short term planners who will pocket almost all of it. Then the collateral kicks in, and resources contracts are empowered.

I’m sorry if it shatters your illusions, but the less advanced world is run by warlords, tin pot dictators, psycho militarists, and worse. Look at Zimbabwe as the most terrifying example of bad governance. Mugabe liberates it from the Evil British colonials, and runs the richest farmland in the world right into the ground, literally. The people of the country starve, the economy disintegrates, the rest of the continent dependent of farm produce suffer from the withdrawal of their most reliable food source. All because Mugabe was a bad businessman. He stole to much, gave what was there to his cronies, and didn’t see that even greed and lust for power have their limits. The military, originally in place to protect el Presidente, have seized power – and their an even worse lot.

Check out the list of 192 member nations in the vaunted United Nations. The vast majority are run by cutthroats, bandits, inept monarchies, military dictators. When you are inexperienced in appropriating funds to keep your machine running, and succumb to short term greed, you cause problems for yourself and your people.

That unfortunately is the situation that 3 billion have to suffer with all their lives.

Predatory Western nations and corporations prey on the inability of these countries to do business in a beneficial manner. So they get raped and pillaged.

Burt the big mistake a lot of Western liberals make is thinking that the local gangsters in power are more benign and will not do the same or worse. 4000 years of history, wars, genocides, empires come and gone have shown that man does not love his fellow man. And that when your next door neighbour has some wealth or resource, the first impulse is to kill him and take it away.

As guilty as the US may be of plundering Third World wealth, they at least learned from more advanced colonial powers like the British that stealing 50% and letting things improve on your foreign plantation is better than stealing 100%.

If we could convince the Arab leaders controlling astronomical oil resources that emptying the piggy bank is not the way to go, things would be better for everyone.

But power corrupts too often, and unsophisticated world leaders fall into the same traps again and again.

With concealed megalithic corporations now competing to exploit the vast unexploited wealth is Central Asia, and Western powers succumbing to their lobbies, the competition to suck dry resources to feed a billion middle and upper class consumers is fiercer than ever.

I repeat, the US is terrible. But believe me, where they not doing what they do abroad, there would not be some wonderful world of peace and harmony in the underdeveloped world. There never was, we were just never attuned to it so much.

The ordinary people of the world who struggles to put food on a table pretty much have to choose which set of gangsters run their neighbourhood. Do they want the local psychos, the one in the next country run by even worse criminals, some multinational, or one of those European countries. Or America.

Pick your poison, as the saying goes.


Mike



[edit on 2-10-2009 by mmiichael]



posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 01:53 AM
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reply to post by mmiichael
 


See you prove my point about most of these people Michael they are all crooks so why would you believe them?

I believe that most theives on that level have honor amongst theives.

They are likely the only ones who know what the truth is, and everything put out there is nothing but an elaborate manipulation.

I think the world would be better off for all parties if we just stopped paying attention to what they tell us and stop agreeing with it and going along with it.

Common sense says no matter how clever a person is there is always some one more clever.

People with that kind of wealth and connections are definately more clever!

The only way to not loose to people that clever is to not get suckered in to their game in the first place.

Iran is a peaceful nation by the way Michael, and Israel should subject itself to the same type of inspections and oversight it wants Iran to have, it's only not doing the things it wants everyone else to do that makes it a target.

There is such a thing as being to clever for one's own good you know!

Try to behave yourself Michael that's the second warning in two months, you are much to well mannered and spoken to need to suffer that kind of stigma.

You know here in Miami when ever a big Hurricane is approaching we have a party!

Even if the world is on the verge of ending its no reason or excuse not to have a good time.

It's those intelligence agency types and all their little white and not so white lies that causes people to not have a fun time.

Hurricanes never lie Michael, the Weather Forecasters? Now that's another story!

Hail Caesar!



posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 02:29 AM
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Mr P,

I really don't want to get into an Iranian bashing session whick would be dismissed as right-wing talkspeak any way.

The Shah was offed by an of even worse bunch of paranoid thungs, unfortunate for the Iranians. Now the Revolutionary Guard has done a slow silent coup d'etat, and they're even worse.

Iran had its' bacon saved by Israel when Saddam's nuclear aspirations were
bombed in 1981. He wa going nuclear at the beginning of a war that lasted 8 years. Can you guess what his plans were?

Iran can keeps it's cards to itself or play diplomatic. It tries to play Kim's game in North Korea. Except he's an isolated lunatic with nothing to offer so they just trow him the odd bone to keep him quiet.

Iran hasn't been a warm and cuddly place for 30 years now. A crowd I know, some of whom were highly placed in government and industry there, have fled along with tens of thousands of others.

It's hard to imagine an oil rich country sinking itself economically. It's happening in Iran right now. It's also hard to imagine foreign affairs so grossly mismanaged to the point of hara-kiri. It's happening.

There was a great line circulating among Iranians when the US went into Iraq to take out Saddam. "Great idea, wrong country."

Lets' hope bad things only come in threes. Iran cannot tolerate a worse regime than they have right now.


Mike



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