Spanking Leads To Child Aggression And Anxiety, Regardless Of Cultural Norm

I beg to differ. You say the violent crime rate has been skyrocketing in the past three decades and you're correct, but I think the main reason for the spike in violence was because that's around the time parents started refusing to discipline their children in favour of doing nothing but yelling at the brat they created by being to lazy to actually parent them. The kids started doing what they wanted when they wanted and felt they should be able to do the same as an adult.

Dr Spock didn't believe in discipline instead he sold America on "discussing" things with your children and spoiling them. I believe Dr Spock's kid committed suicide. Children need discipline and structure.

Originally posted by RogerT
You know I thought you were serious until I read your last line.

Not much point conversing if you are more interested in scoring a point for your ego with sarcasm than learning better ways to help your kids socialise than physically hurting them.

By the way, there is no intention in any of my posts to label anyone a 'bad parent'. If you wish to interpret a label, 'lacking in information' would be more accurate.

In your case, it would seem 'lacking in the desire for information' would seem more appropriate.

[edit on 30/9/09 by RogerT]

Are you addressing me?
If so, I'd have thought you'd like the hyperbole- exaggeration for effect if you will, since you pulled the 800# gorilla thing. Being blown off so easily means you either give up or don't care enough. I'm up for some intellectual debate but for some reason you can pull an extreme on me but I can't pull one on you?
That says enough.

Originally posted by Sundancer
I beg to differ. You say the violent crime rate has been skyrocketing in the past three decades and you're correct, but I think the main reason for the spike in violence was because that's around the time parents started refusing to discipline their children in favour of doing nothing but yelling at the brat they created by being to lazy to actually parent them. The kids started doing what they wanted when they wanted and felt they should be able to do the same as an adult.

Dr Spock didn't believe in discipline instead he sold America on "discussing" things with your children and spoiling them. I believe Dr Spock's kid committed suicide. Children need discipline and structure.

You mean, that's about the same time that the "Bill of Rights" started to be applied to adolescents, right?

reply to post by RogerT


That's it, I too find violence towards children wrong. The fine line of discipline is knowing when not to use physical action i.e. spanking. Just as in everything in life some folks can't see it. I am not a parent so really what I feel has not been put to the ultimate test. I just hope when I do have kids I do more right than wrong.

reply to post by RogerT
I should add that of the 4 children I spent time with, raising, the oldest, he is working productively, raising a family of his own; the next is pursuing a career in politics, and is rather conservative in her opinions; the next has responsibly decided to resume college after her 'boyfriend' dumped her; and the last, the one I was able to spend the least time with - about 3 years 'constructively' (before he was 4), thinks he's posessed, can build cities, and assassinate Obama in order to keep the world equal. (His words, not mine.)

Of the 4, the last was spanked the least, and was the youngest when 'save the world mom' left me, so, tell me, after treating all the same, which one did I screw up? Which one needs spanked?

Originally posted by hangedman13

 

That's it, I too find violence towards children wrong. The fine line of discipline is knowing when not to use physical action i.e. spanking. Just as in everything in life some folks can't see it. I am not a parent so really what I feel has not been put to the ultimate test. I just hope when I do have kids I do more right than wrong.

The fact that you question yourself says you'll do far more right than wrong even if you happen to swat a child.

[edit on 9/30/2009 by abecedarian]

reply to post by RogerT


I really wish you wouldn't participate in these conversations. Your opinion is so overpoweringly obvious that it's blinding.

It's also blindingly obvious that you aren't capable of considering corporal punishment as a valid form of discipline.

That you are incapable of having a reasoned debate on the topic.

That your viewpoint of the matter is the only valid one, and anyone else is ignorant of the facts.

I cannot believe the extent that people are debating the issue of whether it is moraly right or wrong to physicaly spank a child. Each and every child is completely defferent just the same as each of us adults. What works with one child will not always work with another; parents of multiple children know this as fact.

As well as disciplining a child, there are other factors in which we need to concern ourselves, probably more so than the discipline issue. One factor that is so disconcerting to myself is nutrition, there are so many additives, chemicals, and preservatives in our foods today that we do not fully understand how they affect our mental capacities. As well as steroids in our meat products from rapid growth farms for profit. Steroids are known to increase growth and aggressiveness.

Social life has changed radically over the last couple of decades, peer pressure is just as much a factor for many aduts just as for children. How often do advocates for the elimination of corporal punishment for children really stop and try to understand that each child is defferent, the way they learn, associate cause an effect, etc.. Time out for your child for talking back will not necessarily work for someone else's child, sometimes it may be necessary to extend discipline to include corporal punishment to enable cause and effect to be associated.

There are some people that are very lucky, the combination of good nutrition, non-corporal punishment, quality time, as well as some good genetics produce some very bright, intelligent, well adjusted children. Many are not so lucky, and find that no matter how well meaning and loving they are, they're children may just need to have corporal punishment provided on occasions.

In closing, the use of corporal punishment should depend on (1) the specific child (2) the specific curcumstances and extent of wrong doing (3) the ability of the parent to ensure that they do not cross the line of discipline into abuse. Corporal punishment(spanking) is not wrong, nor is it wrong to apply non-corporal punishment in it's place depending on each child and specific situation.

I believe in both methods of discipline, and the moral obligation to my children to learn to discern which is appropriate for each and every different child and situation. As with everything else in life we will ultimately make mistakes and wrong choices at one time or another; this includes our decisions in how to discipline our children from time to time. Kids do not come with instruction manuals.

Edit: fast fingers can't spell on bad keyboard

[edit on 30/9/2009 by Pappa_Bear]

Originally posted by abecedarian

Originally posted by RogerT
You know I thought you were serious until I read your last line.

Not much point conversing if you are more interested in scoring a point for your ego with sarcasm than learning better ways to help your kids socialise than physically hurting them.

By the way, there is no intention in any of my posts to label anyone a 'bad parent'. If you wish to interpret a label, 'lacking in information' would be more accurate.

In your case, it would seem 'lacking in the desire for information' would seem more appropriate.

[edit on 30/9/09 by RogerT]

Are you addressing me?
If so, I'd have thought you'd like the hyperbole- exaggeration for effect if you will, since you pulled the 800# gorilla thing. Being blown off so easily means you either give up or don't care enough. I'm up for some intellectual debate but for some reason you can pull an extreme on me but I can't pull one on you?
That says enough.

I don't see anything intellectual in sarcasm.

Now you claim that making a statement that waterboarding would be my suggestion for non-violent alternatives to spanking is similar to the analogy of an 800lb gorilla reference to scale and power.

There was nothing sarcastic about my use of the term 800 pound gorilla. It was used in the literal sense.

I don't believe you want an answer to your question, but rather you want an opposition to 'debate' with. At 3am that's not where I want to go.

Originally posted by Sundancer

Dr Spock didn't believe in discipline instead he sold America on "discussing" things with your children and spoiling them. I believe Dr Spock's kid committed suicide. Children need discipline and structure.

I think you have the wrong impression of Dr Spock's work. He was an advocate of 'toddler taming' and proposed some very disturbing methods for raising kids.

As he got older he recanted on most of his theories and became a peace activist, attending demonstration rallies and scaling barbed wire fences in a 3 piece suit. I think he realised the damage he'd done and wanted to make atonement.

Originally posted by abecedarian
reply to post by RogerT

 

I should add that of the 4 children I spent time with, raising, the oldest, he is working productively, raising a family of his own; the next is pursuing a career in politics, and is rather conservative in her opinions; the next has responsibly decided to resume college after her 'boyfriend' dumped her; and the last, the one I was able to spend the least time with - about 3 years 'constructively' (before he was 4), thinks he's posessed, can build cities, and assassinate Obama in order to keep the world equal. (His words, not mine.)

Of the 4, the last was spanked the least, and was the youngest when 'save the world mom' left me, so, tell me, after treating all the same, which one did I screw up? Which one needs spanked?

None of them need spanking.
I'll say it again, there is never a NEED for spanking.

Just because you are ignorant of the alternatives, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Originally posted by TheColdDragon
reply to post by RogerT

 

I really wish you wouldn't participate in these conversations.

Your wish is my command.

Ciao everyone.

[edit on 1/10/09 by RogerT]

reply to post by RogerT


Considering the post previous to this one that you made, I can't say as I'm sad... you don't recognize there is any need, so it isn't a conversation you're going to be able to convince anyone on.

reply to post by RogerT


Roger give it a rest mate, I've seen you participate in these type of debates before and again you seem to be making the same mistakes as usual.

No-one is advocating beating children to a pulp and no one is saying lets beat our kids to cause them physical or mental pain!

You really don't seem to understand the concept of association, what you fail to realise is half of the time the fact that a child has been smacked it upsets them rather than physically harms them.

This isn't being done to hurt the child, its being done to teach them a lesson that benefits them i.e. don't put your hand in the fire, don't stick a screwdriver in a socket etc

Every time this debate comes up you wade in with comments regarding injuring or assaulting someone "5 times smaller than you"

Lets drop the over exaggerated statements...

There is a major difference between smacking a child for discipline and child abuse, just because you feel there are different ways to control kids rather than smacking don't sit here and label other peoples behaviour as violent and abusive.

If you was commenting in a child abuse thread mate I'd be with you 100%.

I had some occasions in which I was spanked as a child. My parents spanked me as a last resort not a first. There was a time when parents felt if they didn't discipline their children society would do so at some point in time. Society don't have the same kind of love for your kids and it won't hesitate in killing them in the name of justice. I grew up with boys from a household that didn't discipline them and guess where they are now? In prison or dead both of which from breaking the law. That study just don't ring right with me, there's something being left out.

reply to post by Jazzyguy


Who gives a crap?! I'm from the Philippines and I've been spanked as child. Spanking is the norm here but only if the child is a pain in the ass. And I still turned out superior as opposed to those stupid American children you've got over there. No wonder the Empire is crumbling as its future leaders are all entitled, arrogant, undisciplined brats who're also fat and dumb.

originally posted by Roger T
I'd wager very few posters here on ATS would actually smack if they were aware and trained in more effective alternatives, so it's really simply an ignorance issue, combined with a childhood training in violent agenda enforcing through personal experience or close witnessing.

Yup everybody raise your kids in the way that the government says you should! They know what's best for everyone's children, look at how today's children are outclassing previous generations! Because every child fits into every scenario outlined in the pamphlets....

where all these wonderful alternative methods you keep mentioning (over and over and over). Some links, even? Hopefully to non-governmental sites....

By the way, there is no intention in any of my posts to label anyone a 'bad parent'. If you wish to interpret a label, 'lacking in information' would be more accurate.

No of course! They are just acting either unconsciously or are insane, right? Everything is cut dried black and white, of course! There is NO possible situation where any other disciplinary action is needed other than what is outlined in my trusty pamphlets and psychology texts....

God you're annoying with this. At least try to engage in a bit of debate. And if you're gonna talk down to everyone with how luddite our parenting methods are, PUT UP SOME FRIGGIN' LINKS to prove it.

reply to post by TravelerintheDark

The questions were aimed broadly, not specifically at you.

Oh, I see now! that's why the notation 'originally posted by TheRedneck' was there... my bad.

How about assuming that the person making that threat stands three times your height and outweighs you by a ratio of perhaps 6:1. Do you take it seriously then?

I already indicated the answer was yes. I've heard of people who can't take no for an answer...

The bearing in mind bit is cute after your admonition that you yourself don't need to bear anything in mind.

You really have a hard time with agreement, don't you?

Not having to bear it in mind was in response to it already being borne in mind. Get it now? I answered both of your questions in the affirmative, and yet you still act like I was saying 'no'.

If a child is about to touch a hot stove wouldn't pulling their hand away be just as effective in preventing injury?

The first time, yes. The second time, yes. The fourtieth time? NO! What happens the next time, when no one is watching at that particular moment?

You seem to think that a child will always respond to simple logic and parental authority. As a father of two, I can assure you this is not the case. My response to a child continually placing themselves in danger of a severe burn is first correction ("No, son, don't be touching that. It'll burn you"), then action (pulling him away), and finally, if after these two methods fail, a swat on the bottom in conjunction with an admonition (*swat* "I said to leave that alone!"). By doing this, I give the child a chance to correct his own behavior, but then if he doesn't, I save him from a severe burn later on by instilling minor, short-lived pain instead. I also reinforce my authority over him, so the next time I say no, he will be more likely to listen and not get one opf those swats.

Yes, I'm sure it hurts when I swat the child's butt. It hurt me when my father did it. But it hurt more mentally than physically, and was short-lived. The options, had he not spanked me, or had I not spanked my kids, would have been potentially much more severe and dangerous, sometimes even life-threatening ("Son, leave that wall socket alone!").

Any by hitting without actually 'injuring' I'm assuming you mean nothing that requires medical attention? Welts, scrapes, minor bruising... they don't count as 'injuries'?

Now you're putting words in my mouth. Please point out where I stated that or cease your unfounded and incorrect accusations.

I never stated an such thing. Physical marks, while they can occur accidentally during discipline, are never something to be simply ignored. They are an indication of excessive punishment.

That's fine because what we're talking about here are psychological and emotional injuries not physical ones.

I am still amazed at the present attitude that says that anything which is not pleasant is an 'emotional scar'. You really believe that, don't you? You really believe that upsetting a child is far worse than allowing a child to be seriously injured physically?

Yes, I would be angry. As illustrated above I'd be angry for the person not having the common sense to see the irrationality of what they had done. I'd prefer to be talked to, not hit.

Again, you assume that the child is listening. What do you do when the child refuses to listen?

But it did harm me, so I can't honestly answer that question.

Now we're getting somewhere! I am now assuming you were abused as a child.

There is a huge difference between abuse and discipline. The former is done out of anger or vengeance, while the latter is done out of love. I will understand if you can't comprehend the fact that 'tough love' is actually love, and I find it upsetting every time I meet someone who has that weakness.

But it is true. The fact that you were abused does not mean all disciplined children were abused. The fact that you were injured does not mean that all parents are trying to injure their children. You have to understand that your perspective, as mine and everyone else's, is based on personal experiences. The advantage we as humans have over the rest of the animal kingdom is that we have the ability to think and reason based not only on our own experiences, but on the experiences of others.

I personally urge you to get some counseling to resolve the anger issues you obviously have. Anger and resentment is a poison of the mind.

TheRedneck

reply to post by RogerT

However, your statement: "whenever they come across a need for corporal punishment to be administered" is the weak link in the 'argument'.

There is never a NEED for corporal punishment. There is ALWAYS a non violent and more effective solution.

I beg to disagree. As I stated in the above response to TravelerintheDark, what do you do when a child refuses to listen to verbal admonitions, refuses to be swayed by logic, and is engaging in a dangerous situation?

You use some means of discipline to enforce your authority for the good of the child. If the only means of doing this effectively is to swat a behind, then a good parent will do it.

It's not about you when you have a child. It is all about raising that child.

Inflicting violence on a less powerful individual in order to effect a personally preferred outcome requires a state of unconsciousness or insanity, IMHO.

Here is the weak link in your argument. the only 'personal preference' in my decision to discipline my child stems from the fact that i consider it personally as well as socially preferential to protect and teach my child.

You make it sound like every parent who swats a butt has some ulterior motive like satisfaction...?

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Oh, I see now! that's why the notation 'originally posted by TheRedneck' was there... my bad.

No, it was there because I was quoting your post. I stated before the questions that they weren't aimed specifically at you, but anyone.

I already indicated the answer was yes. I've heard of people who can't take no for an answer...

You said you would be anxious is you took the threat seriously. I was asking for clarification given a certain size differential.

You really have a hard time with agreement, don't you?

Not at all. In fact, we don't disagree completely. That's apparent later in your post which I'd like to point out when I get there.

Not having to bear it in mind was in response to it already being borne in mind. Get it now? I answered both of your questions in the affirmative, and yet you still act like I was saying 'no'.

I placed my statement in a bad position for the sake of clarity I suppose. Actually my part about it being 'cute' (Pardon my sarcasm) was your later insistence that I bear certain points in mind. You came across as rather hostile.

The first time, yes. The second time, yes. The fourtieth time? NO! What happens the next time, when no one is watching at that particular moment?

Then they'll get burned. If a child insists on such behavior as sticking their hand on the hot stove or a finger in a light socket after the fortieth admonition I don't think the problem is going to be resolved easily by any stretch. In fact I'm sure we all have, if only metaphorically, been burned.

Yes, I'm sure it hurts when I swat the child's butt. It hurt me when my father did it. But it hurt more mentally than physically, and was short-lived.

The emotional aspect is the entire point of both myself and the study discussed in the OP. Not the physical aspect. So we are in agreement.

As someone else wisely said, every child is different. Not every child requires spanking. Some do listen to reason and accept authority. The issue I have is when a pattern is perpetuated not for the good of the child or in light of the child's temperament but rather because 'it's what my father/mother did'.

That doesn't make it right in all circumstances, with all children.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. Please point out where I stated that or cease your unfounded and incorrect accusations.

I can't because I asked questions. I didn't make statements. Nothing was put in your mouth by me.

The fact that you were injured does not mean that all parents are trying to injure their children.

Actually I never said that either. The issue was never once about physical injury. All my 'injuries' were on the inside. Mentally and emotionally. So I know the study does have truth to it. A fact some can't admit to I suppose because their feeling of being criticized makes them obstinate.

And thanks for your concern over my anger and resentment. I'm doing just fine.

[edit on 1/10/09 by TravelerintheDark]