Religion is the science of defeating logical thinking

I've "debated" with Christians for years. We've talked about god, evolution, science in general, Noa's ark, bible prophecies, abortion, politics, and pretty much everything else under the sun. Something I've noticed, from the first debate to the most recent debate, is that the fundamentalist believers have no grasp, understanding, or utilization of logic.

Worse than just not making logical arguments, they seem to take the opposite approach, ignoring not just common sense, but methodically dissolving consistency between their own arguments. In other words, if a christian doesn't want A=C, and yet states A=B, and B=C, no amount of talking to them will convince them that A=C.

Instead, they'll make some off the wall claim, like "When B=C, it's a different B." You can explain to them the error they're making, but the fact is, they simply wont accept that A must equal C. Logic be damned, A can not equal C, so it is not they who are wrong, but it's all of logic that is wrong.

I think this is no accident. Religion is the science of staying ignorant.

Think about it -- in religion, there is no proof, no experiment, no evidence, etc, to make a case with. In religion, you're trained to think with your emotions, rather than your brain. You're trained to look at lack of evidence as a GOOD thing, because without evidence, you're only recourse is to blindly follow, and faith is looked at as a "virtue" necessary to get into heaven

Religious people are masters at restating what they previously believe, regardless of what the evidence, or logic, demonstrates to be true.

How do they do that? It's simple -- by spending years teaching themselves to simply ignore reality, and instead focus on imaginary preconceived notions of what's right. They force-fit their idea of reality into the universe.

It's not just a mistake on their part. It's a willful ignorance, which they have spent a great deal of time and energy practicing in order to satisfy their indoctrinated view of the world.


I bring this up because religion is detrimental to progress. When you turn people into robots, who's programming only allows one false paradigm of reality, then it's natural to think that this poisonous thinking can spill over into other cognitive exercises. Reality changes from being a pursuit of knowledge and wisdom to one of emotional fighting over which version of fantasy everyone should be forced to obey; and as soon as they have an idea which they want to be true, even if it's wrong, you'll never be able to convince them otherwise -- because they spend their lives turning what they want to be true into what they really believe is true.

Evidence be damned -- if they say it's true, then there's no room for other opinions!

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent full of doubt.

Bertrand Russell

I'm not quite sure why you single out religious people except for the fact it is a matter of your personal perspective based on your experiences. Being that you may be on the one side of the argument, you only see the faults in those on the opposite side of the argument.

As a devout Christian who, like you, has engaged in many similar discussions you list above, I've noticed a great amount of logical fallacies coming from non religious individuals as well. Some arguments are mind boggling and some even extend past simply being illogical and go as far as being completely erroneous.

I do not believe it's a religious issue or a skeptical issue. Rather, it appears to be a human issue to be so devoted to the opinions we have formed over time that we sometimes negate logic and reason in an effort to defend our beliefs.

It would stand to reason you are correct in that Christians and religious people as a whole can be guilty of this. But in fairness, your complaint can be true for most people regardless of their beliefs.

reply to post by Kaytagg

I think this is no accident. Religion is the science of staying ignorant.

Star for you..!

It's a willful ignorance

I'm sorry, but I can only Star once...

reply to post by happygolucky


Did you like my example with A=B, B=C, therefore A=C?
It's a DIFFERENT B when B=C!!! God changes the value of A, B, and C mid argument! This isn't illogical, because God can do anything!

I hear that sort of stuff alllllllll the time.

Science and religion will NEVER offer a logical explanation for the biggest questions of our universe, such as why, who, when, etc.

Not science. Not religion.

What religion offers is a guideline on how to live your life so that your actions can benefit everyone.

What science offers is improvements in how to live your life.

The saying goes money can not buy happiness, but it can sure help you get there. Science is like the lurking factor in that quote. It will not fix our problems or answer our questions, but it just our everyday pursuit for knowledge and happiness.

Science is the process of interpretation and in my own words, finding enough reason to believe how something operates. Religion was the VERY first step in science.

How we evolved out of monarchies, feudalism, dictatorships, into a capitalist (so we call) state, we evolved out of religion into science. Religion offered explanations, but not reasoning. Science offers both.

While there may be a step after science, we do not know that yet.

If you think about it, religion and science go hand in hand.

reply to post by FritosBBQTwist


An "explanation" that is wrong is no explanation at all. A 9 year old child can come up with an "explanation" to any question you might pose to him, but that doesn't make it right. And when people actually believe the explanations, that's the opposite of what you're trying to attain by seeking the explanation in the first place.

reply to post by Kaytagg


I would argue that taking any stance as to the possible existance of a "god" or higher power is illogical at best. And arguing about it non-stop *as certain members here do, OP* applies as above and beyond illogical.

[edit on 29-9-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

im offended! how dare you say there is no logic in religion!

follow this. i will talk slowly...

there is only one true god.

that god is jesus christ.

we know this from the bible.

we know the bible is TRUE!

read your bible, it will tell you so.

no logic? HAH!

reply to post by Kaytagg


I agree with you that "religion", such as Christianity, etc, are "wrong".

In my previous post, I was only stating that religion was essentially the foundation of science, yet in todays world people can not see that being slightly possible.

Man, when will everyone quit acting like they're 14 and get a life. You're not changing anyone's beliefs so just let people live their life, eh?

I'm going to treat you the same no matter what god you choose, or choose not, to worship.

Just move past it, it's old.

good post, its nice for people to put thought into religion, as appose to just bluntly putting it down, youve done your research it seems.

perhaps not enough though, (no disrespect) but perhaps religion is what you claim it is, I could care less what it is or isnt though, religion doesnt bring people to God, it only allows them (in their own mind) to declare Gods presence in their own lives.

I for one believe in NO religion, for they are ALL man made, but my heart and soul and mind is all for God. its easy for me to see God, I see his presence everyday (and the devil certainly attempts to tempt me daily,lol) God actually comes with me where-ever I go, hes in every thought I have, he is my heart, soul, and mind, he is my life. and no, no religion here at all.

I love God, and he loves me and you as well. No need for discussion, he will show you all soon enough, no need to rush, time does not exist, its only in your minds, it was first a unit of measurement for distance, but it has certainly put its head where I for sure dont want it.

but to add to the post fruitfully, what YOU think is logic, and what is logic to God, is totally different. you see, God is at the ultimate state of consciousness, and sure, we may be trucking along, but we have alot of forgotten work to do.

if your really concerned with finding "logical" explanations for things regarding life, you could always go read "facts" (according to science) but science is only mans interpretation, and we all know man is VERY off sometimes, even when we think we are 1000000% percent correct. (jerry springer anyone??)

if you want to find God, invite him in, and meditate on it. all your questions will be answered.

Much love! (drink water!!!)

Originally posted by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest
im offended! how dare you say there is no logic in religion!

follow this. i will talk slowly...

there is only one true god.

that god is jesus christ.

we know this from the bible.

we know the bible is TRUE!

read your bible, it will tell you so.

no logic? HAH!

Hello, and thank you for adding to the discussion, if I may though, I feel the need to fill you in on some things.

First! Jesus Christ is NOT God, he is Gods son (like you and I) but ofcourse, he declared God beyond death, and loved all unconditionally (which is where I am)

Second, be careful when you read the bible, remember that is has gone through many hands and has been changed and added many times.

Third (and last, but not least) since God loves you and lives within YOUR soul, please try talking to God in a very honest, loving way, and meditate on Him. I promise it will not come without result.

reply to post by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest


Hm, I never thought of it like that before! You've changed my mind! Praise da lawrd!

Good to see you again, btw

Kaytagg, what do you think the logicality of taking out possible variables without sufficient reason to do so?



[edit on 29-9-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

and the never-ending debate opens up again

The way I see it is that there is NO evidence whatsoever for the existence of any deity, other than scriptures and holy books claimed to be the words of *insert deity(s)here*. That is why people have to have "faith" for any and all beliefs.

You see, religions and belief in a deity is not suppose to be done with the brain, it's suppose to be done with the heart and your emotions. you are suppose to "feel" the presence of your chosen deity, not try to use logic and critical thinking to analyze and "find" your god/goddess. This is the reason logical debate to prove the existence of a deity is impossible, because you CAN'T prove it, you are suppose to put your faith in the claim that a deity exists and a hope that whatever religious text you follow is actually truth.

However, it is also impossible to engage in logical arguments about the nonexistence of a deity with atheists, because there is no way whatsoever to prove that there is NOT a god out there. Atheists follow the assumption that an absence of evidence means that the possibility of a deity is discarded, even though proving a deity's non-existence is impossible.

It is possible to debate religious texts and discuss errors that are found, lack of credibility of events, contradictions and so on. however, proving that a religious text is false or inaccurate does not mean that the existence of a deity is ruled out along with the book.

As you can see, there is no way whatsoever to prove either side of the debate, maybe the christians are right and Jesus is the son of god, maybe the muslims are right and Allah is the one true god, maybe Shintoism is the correct religion and every single inanimate object carries a soul, maybe no religion recorded by mankind is correct and there is a mysterious goddess waiting to strike our souls with thunderbolts the moment we die, or maybe there is no deity at all.

Basically, religion is a subject in which we can use logic and critical thinking when debating the contents of religious texts, but logic goes out the window when trying to prove the existence/nonexistence of any deity.

By the way, just in case any of you wonder, I am an atheist

[edit on 29-9-2009 by newworld]

reply to post by newworld


Or maybe they are all right. Even Atheists.

[edit on 29-9-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Quick story.
Guy is a travelling businessman. On his travels he makes it a point to look at the religious culture of each place he travels to.
One week he travels to New York City.
One of the men he meets is a Rabi.
He asks to see the Rabi's religious text. The Rabi agrees and they go about their ways.
Two days later they meet again for another meeting.
The Rabi says: "So, what do you think so far?"
The man says: "I'm still reading, but I hit a stone-wall very early on. You see, I don't see this as a religion. I see it as legislation."

The end.

Why do I bring that up? Because first and foremost, if you are going to start a religious debate, you need to define your terms. You have set the stage for an argument that isn't meant to go anywhere.

You are trying to one-up the people you don't agree with from the get-go and I would imagine that if it ever actually came to a debate, you would fail miserably.

My .02

reply to post by Kaytagg


Kaytagg,

The reason that you are not able to identify their (Christains) thinking as logic is bacause mans logic is not God's logic. God is far more advanced than man and you have yet to be able to see God's logic because you lack understanding not the other way around you have it right but like most theories you just have it backwords. I hope you are one day able to go to that next level above the logic of man so you can look back and say well DUH.... Good luck to ya buddy...

[edit on 30-9-2009 by Melissa101]

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by newworld

 

Or maybe they are all right.

Even Atheists.

[edit on 29-9-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

If this was correct, then we would have a HUGE pantheon of gods and goddesses, laughing at us silly humans debating over their existence and which one of them is the real one, when in fact all of them would be real and each decided to gave humans contradicting religious texts for their own sick amusement

Sadly, many of these religions have contradicting accounts or claim to have the one true god, which means that there can't be a way for all of the religions to be true at the same time.
(unless, of course, deities, assuming they exists, designed religions this way to keep humans arguing and killing each other).

Another religion bashing thread on ATS who would have guessed?

Show me there isn't a God, or there isn't the supernatural.

Is thinking with emotion wrong? If so you probably calling 99% of the population idiots. Is Judaism and Christianity wrong in saying people should love each other, forgive those who hurt them, and not to do things like kill and steal? These seem like good things to me... just saying. If we can't get along then how can we continue our progress as a species?

Did you know that 96% of the matter in the universe is unaccounted for? We can only see or observe 4% of the matter in the universe. We can only see a certain spectrum of light waves, we can only hear a certain range of pitches, we can only taste certain tastes, etc. There is so much we don't know still, isn't it possible there is an intelligence guiding the universe? I mean look at the species on Earth, everything seems to have a form, we're not randomly made. Two ears, two eyes, two sets of appendages, etc. It's all orderly and fits a pattern, no? Could this be the process of evolution? Sure, if you buy into it that is, but you got to ask yourself why do people have two eyes, wouldn't three be better? Wouldn't an eye on the back of your head benefit you more than just two eyes on the front? It seems evolution, if real, follows an intelligent pattern, no?

What about Ghosts, NDE's and other paranormal phenomenon? Could you explain them as tricks of the brain? Oh sure, but there definitely seems to be a bunch of people who have witnessed something spectacular like those in their lives.

Try this on for size. Since all matter is essentially both a wavelenth and very dense energy popping in and out of existence. That means that's all we are correct? When one dies the energy of our bodies doesn't stop, it can't stop because we all know that Matter cannot be destroyed! There is a theory around that Paranormal activity correlates with Electromagnetic Frequencies, making some believe the soul is a form of energy. IF this is true could not a form of energy we cannot detect (96% of the universe) perhaps coexist withing our body, or be created within our bodies at birth?

This is why I believe, there is still too many unknowns. Did I defy logic?