The Lie Machine--Just who is behind the anti-health care reform movement?

Originally posted by uaocteaou
reply to post by ohioriver

 

14,000 people lose health insurance DAILY

45,000 people die because of lack of health insurance Yearly

GOP stood against Medicare
GOP stood against social security
GOP stood against equal pay for women
GOP stands against health insurance reform.

In all of these situations, they started a false scream of "Socialism".

The US ranks just above Slovenia and just below Costa Rica. in health care for it's citizens. We're 37th. There's a rallying cry for you... "U.S.A....We're Number 37"

The us ranks 29th. in infant mortality, nice FACTS huh.

Your thoughts on "Imagine" what could happen. MY information DID happen. Enough scare tactic THEORIES, those are the facts.

[edit on 29-9-2009 by uaocteaou]

Give me some hard facts and links to back up your statement.

I am behind the anti-health care reform movement. And millions of normal middle class Americans just like me.

FYI - I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh
FYI - I don't watch or listen to Glen Beck
FYI - I have not attended a Tea Party or Health Care Townhall

You liberals will try anything to deflect from the fact that their are actually average Americans who hate the idea of government subsidized/controlled anything. We dont want to be socialized and be forced to pay for government entitlement programs. If it was up to me we woulld phase out social security, medicare, and medicaid. Guess its not a big deal since they will run out of money soon anyway, which is just more proof that the government cant manage anything without it becoming one giant cluster .... in the end.

Thanks for the post! I think it is obvious by now who the politicians are working for and its not us.

If Obama was interested in real reform he would have started the negotiations at single payer and compromised with a government run public option.

The current bills being considered are just like Medicare part D, another bill that does nothing but further enrich our corporate overlords.

How on earth can any one look at the United Stateds Federal government and say "thats who I want running my healthcare"?
Everything they have touched has turned to poo. We have between $60-$100 trillion in unfunded liabilities NOW, and every single program they have ever launched costs much more than their largest predictions. This is a catastrophe we are considering.
Also, it is (as most of our federal government today), unconstitutional. The powers for congress is listed in the constitution and not one of them gives them power to provide insurance (or anything at all for that matter) in area on intrastate trades. How about congress spend the next ten years rolling back their thousands of unconstitutional laws instead of making very expensive new ones?

The entire strategy of the left which is echoed brilliantly in the OP is:

"Some bad people oppose Obama-care so everyone who opposes it must be bad and the plan must be good"

I call this the "toddler-logic" tactic.

I don't care if the American Nazi Party and Satan himself are busting up town hall meetings and writing editorials against Obama-care written for them by Cocaine dealers.

It's a bad solution. You want my support? Fix the solution and eliminate the issues in it which have everyone so upset. But, no - rather than do that the entire effort of support is, "bad people don't want Obama care to pass. You don't want to be a bad person now, do you"?

No one is going to get "free" anything out of this. What you will get is a mandatory insurance bill, just like car insurance but a lot more expensive and anyone with a job will see their taxes go up to pay twice for the exact same thing we're already paying for in Medicare / Medicaid.

The quality of care will degrade and the number of Drs will nose dive.

We do need a solution, reform of the insurance companies and some system to add all citizens to the health care plans but this one isn't it, folks. They aren't fixing the issues because the goal is not universal health care, it's universal control of your health and well being by the government.

reply to post by SourGrapes


My family does not have a "choice for a drink of water". Nada, we can't afford that water, so we are left to die from lack of water.

How does giving a choice for those who at this time do NOT have a choice, somehow equal taking away your choice?

It does not, it just levels the playing field for those of us who cannot afford health insurance as it stands now.

People need to follow the money, and understand who it is that does not want people to really have a choice.

That is insurance companies, and pharmaceutical companies. It only takes a tiny bit of intelligence to realize this. It only takes a tiny bit of emotion to block the truth from your minds.

Here is what I think needs done, with everything going on right now. Medicare, Medicaid, child health plans etc for each specific state, needs to increase the income limit to say 100,000. Meaning if you make $100,000 or less a year, you automatically qualify for the above health coverages. That would stop all of this stupidity. Then people would have a choice, without the stupid complaining. The problem with this? Still leaves the insurance companies screwing people over left and right.

Pull your butt cheeks open wider people, the insurance companies are winning.

And be sure to ignore the FACT that the majority of the citizens of this country want a public option. Just like the FACT was ignored that the majority of citizens did not want bank or wall street bailouts. If the people want it don't give it to them, because they might like it.

ErnestT, we already have government run health care that people who have it really really really like. Medicare, Medicaid and state health care for children. One of the problems now is the insurance companies are getting too much money for the part they play in these programs.

Harm None
Peace

reply to post by amazed


Well you can continue to be the poor victim with nothing, or you can get off your 'butt-cheeks' and find insurance. There are policies out there that are ER only, and cost very little. Call your state, they receive federal funding to supplement monthly insurance rates, based on sliding scale of income.

Or, you can remain uninsured and simply go to the ER if you have an emergency. They'll bill ya, will even work out a plan for repayment. Heck, if it's too much, you can even claim bankruptcy.

Guess what? These are all CHOICES, that we still have. Believe it, or not. They may not be IDEAL choices, but they are choices nonetheless.

Why should I have my CHOICES taken away because you want someone to do the paperwork and footwork for you?

Gawd, I am so sick of this generation's attitude of entitlement.

reply to post by ecoparity


I didn't say everyone must be bad and neither does the aritcle. The topic of the article focuses on the groups behind the protests that are feeding people with disinformation in order to get them riled and angry about the bill. Some of us here on ATS have very specific and well founded reasons for not wanting the bill. But the general public seems to only go off of ridiculous claims made and perpetrated by these groups.

I get worried when I see people with signs like "Don't socialize medicare". Most people aren't really sure what or why they are opposing it. That's my point.

I don't care if you are against health care. Just as long as you're not spouting off unfounded, over exaggerated, regurgitated claims that "they" want you to believe. People are entitle to their opinion, but it bothers me when people don't or do support something without having an educated opinion, because that means that people might suffer one way or another because people bought into the hype and/or let their emotions make their decisions for them.

Originally posted by SourGrapes
reply to post by amazed

 

Well you can continue to be the poor victim with nothing, or you can get off your 'butt-cheeks' and find insurance. There are policies out there that are ER only, and cost very little. Call your state, they receive federal funding to supplement monthly insurance rates, based on sliding scale of income.

Or, you can remain uninsured and simply go to the ER if you have an emergency. They'll bill ya, will even work out a plan for repayment. Heck, if it's too much, you can even claim bankruptcy.

Guess what? These are all CHOICES, that we still have. Believe it, or not. They may not be IDEAL choices, but they are choices nonetheless.

Why should I have my CHOICES taken away because you want someone to do the paperwork and footwork for you?

Gawd, I am so sick of this generation's attitude of entitlement.

Ok, here is something that YOU and many others refuse to admit. I don't want to take your choice away. I just want a choice that does not destroy what my family and what we have worked for. And yes, we have already ONCE filed bankruptcy JUST because of medical and no other reason.

Let me ask, how does MY having a choice take away your choice? I mean, come on, if you want to continue giving your money to an insurance company that will refuse services to you, or deny you coverage at the drop of a hat, and continue increasing your rates, go for it. More power to you, feel free to keep getting screwed all you want. Just be sure and pull your butt cheeks open wider, and I would suggest some KY. I want you to keep that choice. I just also want a choice for insurance that is better.

My family is middle income, chances are we just MIGHT make more than you. Meaning we would therefore be paying more in taxes than you do. OH, and I am in my 40's, so "which generation" are you pointing the finger at? Personally, I am sick of ANY generation, that feels an entitlement to controlling another person's health insurance options. IE: you want to control MY choice to have insurance, and not the other way around.

Our employment being a small company, does NOT offer health insurance, leaving it up to each family to supply it themselves. I have checked around, just for my children, and still the cost is more than my family can "bleed" out of our veins.

Basically, you are telling me my choice is, to go bankrupt or not have health care. Lovely choice, and I sincerely hope that someday, your insurance of "choice" does not decide you have a preexisting condition and refuse you services, leaving you having to file bankruptcy, or die from no care.

Like I have said before, follow the freakin money, and actually think about what is taking place within out society.

Greed greed greed and more corporate greed. It is destroying this country, and people are helping them right along.

Originally posted by nunya13
reply to post by ecoparity

 

I didn't say everyone must be bad and neither does the aritcle. The topic of the article focuses on the groups behind the protests that are feeding people with disinformation in order to get them riled and angry about the bill. Some of us here on ATS have very specific and well founded reasons for not wanting the bill. But the general public seems to only go off of ridiculous claims made and perpetrated by these groups.

I get worried when I see people with signs like "Don't socialize medicare". Most people aren't really sure what or why they are opposing it. That's my point.

I don't care if you are against health care. Just as long as you're not spouting off unfounded, over exaggerated, regurgitated claims that "they" want you to believe. People are entitle to their opinion, but it bothers me when people don't or do support something without having an educated opinion, because that means that people might suffer one way or another because people bought into the hype and/or let their emotions make their decisions for them.

I stand by my description of the Rolling Stone article. It's a reflection of the entire Democratic strategy in dealing with criticism of the bill. "Bad people don't like it, if you don't like it you must be a bad person too".

They continue to completely ignore the concerns being raised which are not "overinflated" or "False" in my opinion. Have you even looked at the sections of the proposed legislation people are worried about? Have you looked at the preparations which were built into the stimulus package that set up things like the so called "death panels"?

I wonder if the 19 million in donations from health care lobbyists had anything to do with the 5 Democrats who killed the public option?

Intershame exposes dems who killed public option

When it comes down to it I don't want the federal government running my health care system. The current system is corrupt and incompetent enough without handing the entire thing over to the masters of corruption and incompetence.

Secondly, the proposed solution just sucks. There are alternate solutions on the table, all of which do a better job of maintaining consumer choices, protection for the public and even full coverage options for everyone - those able to pay or not. These better solutions are being ignored because they don't contain the agenda drivers like population control, euthanasia, insurance company pay offs and weird taxes / fines.

Once again the government answer is to shove bad solutions down our throats which a majority of us do not want instead of choosing better solutions we would support. They've gotten away with passing bad legislation nobody wants long enough, if you think the reaction to this has been bad just wait and see what happens if they force yet another unwanted pile of crap on the American people.


[edit on 30-9-2009 by ecoparity]

Easy one;

The rich and wealthy are behind the forces against universal healthcare.
Have you ever seen a homeless person demonstrate?

Had to share this on one of the many obamacare threads.

Just saw a cartoon with some older people reading about the "healthcare reforms" being discussed.

The caption was: On the bright side, we can expect really long delays before they euthanize us.

Guess it's not that funny (to older people) after all ...

You can blame all the healthcare reform rage on anything you want but it comes down to people doing a little research and finding it's not a good plan.

Free healthcare is awesome, this will not be free in any means, the option to obtain healthcare is a wonderful idea, These programs up for vote offer no option it is mandatory healthcare .

It should not be forced mandatory healthcare wich all of these bills support, how the hell am i supposed to be able to afford a few hundred dollars a month extra? i can't!

It should also not insure illegal immigrants.

i have another thing i was thinking about, not unlike car insurance nowdays ... how long before our government healthcare plans include our credit rating to determine our payment price?

Also if you think for one second if a public option is enabled it will not lead to a single government payer ie, socialized medicine, you are void of all intelligence .

We are talking about health INSURANCE, not health care providers, hospitals, doctors, pharma et al.

Health Insurance companies are middle men who collect money into a pool to pay to healthcare providers in the event you require their services. They do not provide any health related services.

Currently these insurance companies take approximately 1/3 of your health care dollar for the "service" they provide. Lately this "service" seems to be denying coverage whenever possible in order to maximize profits (for themselves) and increasing premiums at an unsustainable pace. In our current insurance setup these companies are incentivized to deny coverage and payouts for service. An example of the overhead would be the following:

During the very noisy and often fact free debate over healthcare reform, lets remind ourselves who is one of the villains of the debate and why they are spending millions a day lobbying congress against reform and the public option.

* Health Insurance companies
have made $60 Billion, yes billion, in profits the last 8 years.
* Health Insurance Premiums
have risen 4 times faster than wages in the last 8 years.
* CEO's of the ten largest insurers made an average of $8.5 million in pay last year - about $4,100 per hour.
* CEO of Cigna's Edward Hanway will retire with a $73 million golden parachute this fall.
* Health care firms boosted their lobbying efforts in the second quarter of this year by $133 million, becoming the largest industry spender on lobbying. And Karen Ignagni, the chief lobbyist for the health insurance trade association, made $1.65 million in 2007.


A Single Payer system could provide this same insurance "service" for a 3 per cent overhead instead of the 31 per cent currently and negotiate savings with providers and pharmaceutical companies to bring down costs.

But if you prefer you can continue to pay Billions in "compensation" to the health insurance executives. (hand slaps forehead)

Originally posted by centurion1211
Had to share this on one of the many obamacare threads.

Just saw a cartoon with some older people reading about the "healthcare reforms" being discussed.

The caption was: On the bright side, we can expect really long delays before they euthanize us.

Guess it's not that funny (to older people) after all ...

Would you STOP the fear mongering? The "death panel" issue has been put in the grave, every intelligent person in the world knows it is just bunk crazy talk.

If you have a REAL concern, let's discuss it. IF you would actually like to talk about something you have a REAL concern about, I support you in that discussion, and may even have some of the same concerns. But, because many people refuse to discuss real concerns and can only mouth "death panel" blah blah, real concerns are not getting discussed.

My mom is on government health care, and it is better care than she has ever received in her life when on private health care insurance or no health care insurance. I can guarantee that they are not "killing her" her or wanting to euthanize her.

Actually, because she does have government health care, her life has been prolonged by MANY MANY years. Without government health care she would have died about 6 years ago when she started having congestive heart failure. It was because Medicaid/Medicare actually stepped up and paid for the care she needed, that she is still alive. Her other insurance DENIED her care, so as she was of the age to get government health care, we switched her over in a split second.

Without government insurance, she would have died before she could get the surgery she needed.

Death Panel is CORPORATE HEALTH INSURANCE!

sigh, Gixxer, the plan does NOT insure illegal's, it does not have too, why? Illegals already get coverage through other programs paid for by our taxes. So why would we allow them to "pay" for their own coverage? Oh my that would just be toooooo smart ya know?

The confusion many of you have seems to be that this is not UNIVERSAL SINGLE PAYER health care. It is a plan where those who CHOOSE this option, GASP pay for it. But it is cheaper than corporate health care, and better than corporate health care.

I'm done arguing with you guys. Hopefully, we get a good plan through, in spite of the stupidity of corporate fear mongering.

Republican health care plan = die quickly if you get sick and cannot afford corporate health care or have a preexisting condition.

HARM NONE
Peace

Originally posted by amazed

Originally posted by centurion1211
Had to share this on one of the many obamacare threads.

Just saw a cartoon with some older people reading about the "healthcare reforms" being discussed.

The caption was: On the bright side, we can expect really long delays before they euthanize us.

Guess it's not that funny (to older people) after all ...

Would you STOP the fear mongering? The "death panel" issue has been put in the grave, every intelligent person in the world knows it is just bunk crazy talk.

A little touchy aren't you? Get a grip, it was from a cartoon someone emailed me.

But to answer you - has it now? The concerns I've posted about this issue were mainly about a "slippery slope" being created where such a thing would be possible under the law and then having the law of unintended consequences take over.

You must also understand that no politician would ever claim in public to be for such a thing, but in the deep dark recesses of their minds, who's to say?

[edit on 9/30/2009 by centurion1211]

reply to post by ecoparity


Hey, man. I'm with you on the agenda the government has for wanting to shove this down our throats. I also think there are much better ways to go about this. The truth is, even if there is a better option the people stated in the article will always want to shut it down and use the same scare tactics over and over again because they can't make as much money off of anything that protects the consumer and forces them to use business practices that aren't solely for the purpose of giving it to the consumers up the rear.

We're on the same side here. Except I still have yet to see anything about forced euthanasia and population control and death panels. These are all just scare tactics, so far as I can tell.

But both sides have their own agenda and some people will continually buy into the lies of one side of one side or the other.

reply to post by centurion1211


This is exactly what I'm talking about. I stated in my OP just where the "death panel" claim came from. And it's all a bunch of hooey. Bringing up claims like these just further confuse the issue and incite rage and fear and prevent people from making a rational decision about health care.

Originally posted by nunya13
reply to post by centurion1211

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I stated in my OP just where the "death panel" claim came from. And it's all a bunch of hooey. Bringing up claims like these just further confuse the issue and incite rage and fear and prevent people from making a rational decision about health care.

I just went back and re-read the OP.

This is not fear mongering at all.

Page 425 of HR 3200 did say those exact words. And IF those words do not make it into a final bill, it will only be because people have exposed these things to the public, who's outrage has made the liberals in congress agree to have them removed. To me, that is entirely a good and useful thing since congress has admitted that they don't read the bills.

Expose these things to the light of day, the same way the obama administration has been made to do an about face on several other key issues.

[edit on 9/30/2009 by centurion1211]