The Lie Machine--Just who is behind the anti-health care reform movement?

reply to post by Wimbly

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Honestly, I wouldn't have said anything. People post from WND and I don't automatically dismiss it because of it's political affiliation.

Now, if someone posted something by Sorcha Faal, I'd be inclined to automatically dismiss it.

reply to post by Iseekthetruth!!!!!!!!

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The public option is not been considered right now, the bills that have priority for review do not have public option, what is been look at is to increase the Medicare and Medicaid requirements so more of the poor can fall into, at least those that can not afford private insurance no matter what.

You have to keep up with the news things are not what it seems.

Even Obama said that he will be thinking about a government Public option if the private insurance doesn't resolve the needs of the nation.

Well look at how car insurance are run in the US and just imagine what the private insurance will be manufacturing for their own benefits at our expenses, after all is mandatory, right?

reply to post by marg6043

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Yes, mandatory health care is a red flag for me. We shouldn't be forced to pay for something we might otherwise not be able to afford.

This isn't directed toward but to everyone in general. I want to reiterate that I didn't start this thread as a right/left issue. My only purpose was to show how anyone of us can be so easily persuaded and duped by people with a vested interested in seeing legislation such as this not pass.

Too many times we either support or are against legislation for the wrong reasons. We just listen to all the rhetoric flying around and don't pay attention to the facts. We let our fears drive us and all reason goes out the window.

What is happenening to the conservative movement in regards to these groups essentially pulling their strings and using them as pawns can and has happened just as easily to the liberal movements.

So please don't think I'm playing politics here. I genuinely want health care reform and if the republicans have or are offering something better I will support it. I still don't even know if I like what the dems are offering.

I just know we need to do SOMETHING. But not necessarily ANYTHING, which seems to be the name of the game right now. Most liberals will gladly take it any way they can as long as they have it and it's coming from the dems.

On the contrary, many conservatives don't want it at all because it's coming from the democrats.

The panel's chairman, Sen. Max Baucus (D-Mont.), and four other Democrats sided with Republicans in opposing a public-option amendment offered by Sen. John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.).

After the vote, the panel began debating a second public-option amendment introduced by Sen. Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.).

"We are going to get at this, and at this, and at this, until we succeed, because we believe in it so strongly," Schumer said in offering his amendment. He disputed Baucus's contention that a health-care reform bill including the public option could never pass the Senate, saying the more Americans hear about its benefits, "the more they like it."

www.washingtonpost.com...

Actually the more the American public looks at the Public Option the more they Don't like it.

Everyone is looking at the bait but no one looks at the hook embedded in the bait.

Someone else at ATS recently posted the Health Care bill included provisions allowing access to your medical and financial records. One of the bills allows the government to debit your bank accounts directly for payment of medical bills without your prior approval.

Then look at the provisions of one of the Food safety bills

“ The Administrator, in order to protect the public health, shall establish a national traceability system that enables the Administrator to retrieve the history, use, and location of an article of food through all stages of its production, processing, and distribution.

* set good practice standards to protect the public and animal health and promote food safety;

* conduct monitoring and surveillance of animals, plants, products, or the environment, as appropriate

* require each food production facility to have a written food safety plan that describes the likely hazards and preventive controls implemented to address those hazards;

A food production facility shall permit the Administrator upon presentation of appropriate credentials and at reasonable times and in a reasonable manner, to have access to and ability to copy all records maintained by or on behalf of such food production establishment in any format (including paper or electronic) and at any location, that are necessary to assist the Administrator.

This is search with out a warrant!! The regulations are written broadly enough to include just about every one "...an article of food through all stages of its production, processing, and distribution....." "..facility owned or operated by a person located in any State that processes food or a facility that holds, stores, or transports food or food ingredients." Can you say KITCHEN???

Notice it does not say a person SELLING food, it says "a person holds, stores, or transports food or food ingredients....

This is very scary given in September, 1995, USDA's Food Safety & Inspection Service presented a 600-page document Farm-To-Table - control of every step in the food chain from production to home preparation. "


How do I know it is aimed at non commercial applications? Because of the specific inclusion of the Commerce clause:

"in any action to enforce the requirements of the food safety law, the connection with interstate commerce required for jurisdiction SHALL BE PRESUMED TO EXIST."


You have to read Wickard v. Filburn for what "the connection with interstate commerce" actually means:

In 1942, the Supreme Court justices unanimously ruled against the farmer. The USDA claimed that if Mr. Filburn grew wheat for his own use, he would not be buying it — and that affected interstate commerce. The Supreme Court agreed. [The wheat] "supplies a need of the man who grew it which would otherwise be reflected by purchases in the open market. Home-grown wheat in this sense competes with wheat in commerce." www.fff.org...



Between the Patriot Act, the Food Safety bills and the Health Care bills we might as well just toss the Constitution into the bottom of the bird cage where maybe it might be of some use. Americans certainly do not seem to care about it any more because they are too busy reaching for the "free goodie bag" dangled in front of their noses.



Control the Food, Control The People - Kissinger

Well it's clear that the USDA is evil.

Why won't Americans stand up for their right to eat tainted meat and e. coli laced veggies?!?

Cowards!

You know, and that is the difference between open minded people and closed minded people.

Open minded people are willing to read information from many different sources, think about the information, discuss the information, do more research, and come to a conclusion about all the facts.

Closed minded people say "I did not have to read it after you posted where the article was coming from".

Why don't you open your mind, get information from many different sources, and THEN form an opinion.

Sometimes, great information can come for those you disagree with, and sometimes great information comes from those you agree with. Refusing to look at all sides keeps you locked up in your own jail so to speak.

ohioriver, do you believe that we do not have rationed care now? We do have rationed care, and let me ask, WHO is doing that rationing? Greedy corporations, that don't care "squat" about you or anyone else. How can you conscientiously support such a thing?

Harm None
Peace

Are they going to round up all of the 700,00 homeless in America and jail them?

reply to post by crimvelvet

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I'm having trouble understanding why you've made 3 posts about food safety bills in a health care thread. I mean, I guess I understand the correlation, but we're specifically discussing the health care bills.

Thanks for your input though. The food safety bills IS yet another way they can control us by heavily regulating something that is a necessity.

reply to post by TamtammyMacx

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What do you mean by that?

Remember when President Bush tried to reform Social Security? The Democrats did not let that happen. Social Security is the biggest ponzi scheme the world has ever seen.

Medicare is wrought with fraud. Stop all the fraud associated with Medicare, and that funds Mr. Obama's government takeover of health care right there.

Equal pay for women? Who opposes that? Government telling private business how much to pay someone? From minimum wage to maximum wage....I got a problem with that.

Health Insurance reform is nothing more than Government run health care.....PERIOD!

Rolling Stone Magazine as a source? ...they are almost as reliable as the NY Times.

Where is the Rolling Stone's article on Mr. Obama's numerous lies? Hint: Nowhere, you will never see it either.

reply to post by RRconservative

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Hey, I don't laugh at someone's post just because they list FRP or WND as a source. Sometimes they have something worthwhile to say. Sometimes, they are full of crap. I would love for Rolling Stone Mag. to do a hard hitting piece on Obama, but I won't hold my breath either.

Did you even read the article? If so, do you have anything to say about it instead of just laughing at me? If not, do you typically just plain refuse to even listen opinions from the "other side"?

Sometimes you have to pay attention to all different sides of the spectrum in order to get a clearer view of the big picture in your head. It's pretty easy for intelligent people to decipher what is rhetoric and what is fact. This particular article is not just full of rhetoric. It's actually pretty point blank.

reply to post by nunya13

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Well researched... and its something most of us here have known.... most of us know that the tea parties and the townhall meetings are all corporate arranged movements disguised as "grassroots". Most conservatives here who support it dont care because quiet frankly anything that helps them discredit Obama is good enough, even when the very people are those ripping them off.

The corporate complex will continue to grow and exploit, and ironically only when these tea party protestors get personally hit is when they will wake up.

Yeah, with your avatar (communist hammer and sickle), we all know where you're coming from ...

Back to the OP, your (the OP's) rant left out the many people - such as myself - that say we need reform, just not the terrible reform ideas being pushed by democrats - and I guess a few of their communist allies.

A bad healthcare bill is not better than no bill at all.


[edit on 9/30/2009 by centurion1211]

Just
And the dems don't pride themselves as being the party of special interest groups, all of which attempt to sell their votes for their own pet causes?




Yeah, right ... Do the the dems also count broken promises by their leaders as lies - gitmo, the patriot act, iraq, afghanistan, the public option (for then against then for). Shouldn't they after they sold their votes for the promises and now aren't getting them?

[edit on 9/30/2009 by centurion1211]

Why does it have to be a choice between a) 'doing nothing' and b)accepting a bill that will further relinquish power over our own lives (what little we have left)?

It's like being really thirsty and given the choice of a) nothing to drink, or b) a lake of water that you HAVE to drink, in total. If it were me and I were given such a choice, I'd have to choose A, and get to work hunting down my own water; even if I die trying. At least I'd die knowing full and well that my life was in my own hands.

Look, I think we can all agree that SOMETHING needs to be done about health care in this country. This bill (which ever one that may be) is not it!

If this bill passes, we are sealing our fate. Guaranteed. It's not like we're going to 'try it on for size' and if it doesn't work, then we'll just go back to the way it was before. Once it is passed, the most we could ever hope for, is a few amendments here and there.

This bill will push our Doctors out of country, or underground; considering the ginormous student debt from medical school, malpractice insurance (the administration has already said they don't wish to touch torte at this time), and the likely wage cap that'll be given by one of the Health care Czars. \

Whether you want to believe it, or not, Heath care will be rationed. How can it not be? If there is a budget, there will be a ration. Think it'll be 'first come, first serve'? I wouldn't bet my life on it, would you?

There will be no choice in plans. How can there be, when they are going to penalize companies that choose to continue to provide health care insurance to their employees? Let's think about that one, for a minute. If you were an employer and you had the option of continuing to provide health care insurance benefits for your employees, and pay an additional 7-8% penalty (tax, penalty, it's all the same) on top of what you are already paying for the health coverage; or drop it all together and let the employees get the government plan. Sounds like a no-brainer.

Look, we could go on and on; but the biggest issue I see is that we are being so complacent with our government. We should be pissed off, as hell, that they would even consider shoving something down our throats, without presenting a few different options. I'm pissed that my government thinks so little of us that they must believe that too many options would just confuse us.

So, here we have it...all or nothing. Don't give the American people too much to think about, it just might confuse 'em. We need to be pissed at THEM, not each other. Seriously, let's turn our focus away from trying to sell each other the lake and back to where it should be...our lame ass government!

I'm sure I'll get a 'well, then smarty pants...what would you do", so I'll throw out a couple of suggestions, just to show that I have been paying attention and I have put in a great deal of intense critical thought.

I think we should rethink the torte reform. Instead of rationing our medical care we receive; perhaps, we should think about rationing malpractice pay outs. I mean really, we all know its the lawyers who get the money anyway (oooh, a light bulb just went off in my head, on the reason O said he's leaving this one alone).

Maybe we should look at opening up the competition for insurance companies, by relaxing some of the government imposed restrictions and legal barriers that were put in place by those who profit and benefit from said impositions. Wrangle up the lobbiers!

We should also consider opening up the playing field to a national level (instead of state limitations - btw, I always thought health insurance should follow us, no matter what state we live in any way. Makes no sense, really).

This is getting too long, and my focus is going awry. Just some of my thoughts, but then who am I anyway? Just a hot-headed and violent 'nobody', in the eyes of Congress.

For the amount of ungodly taxes I've pay on gas, and cigarettes alone, I damn well deserve some sort of health care. Every other country can afford health care for their citizens, even third world. Why not the US?

An argument over finally receiving health care in the US...

"No way, I'll have you liberals make sure my kids have some sort of health care damn it, whatever you do, don't give me health care, I'd rather die first!"

Woo Hoo we're number 37! Think about it...

Star and flag

already oppose it, don't need to know who else does thank you. wanna know who supports it? our thug of a president. why 'conservative groups oppose new trillion dollar, unsustainable entitlement' is a news story, i have no clue. better ask rolling stone.

No movement from us will assure the current and continued evils of the medical multinational cartel. Big pharm, AMA, NIH, Insurance, facade research, all the players have decisive powers until we say otherwise.

Doing nothing means it can't improve the situation. It will grow deeper into our pains and offer us our own misery as a cure. The economedical beast will be stronger and more pervasive. Free to take our lives for profit piece by piece.

Giving power to the government means it will probably work much less efficiently than imagined. But it will begin to dislodge the deeply embedded tires from the mud. It might only be a beginning for change. But only a beginning. Not an yet an answer. That we can work at over time.

We must keep changing to avoid the continued disaster our health care industry has become. This will be the first of many clumsy government corroded answers until we get it right. We need at least begin to drag our busted and diseased bodies from those who would take it for their profit and discard the rest. We have to dislodge from the twisted legacy of the Hippocratic oath.

No action assures the economic slavery of millions.

Passing a bill that is filled with problems, corrupted and diseased by politics might be the only way to move out of harms way and assured misery of the masses. We need unplug ourselves from their Matrix of profit.

Most cannot fathom how deeply corrupted the systems on both sides are. We will not be offered another choice. The last link of control will be forged and lock us away from the path of change, if we do not take this opportunity.

Even a flawed change is in the better direction for evolving of societal advancements than no change at all.

Reform is the lessor of two evils IMHO.

ZG



[edit on 9/30/2009 by ZeroGhost]

My hat is off to the OP for bringing this topic for discussion. S&F! There is something that needs to be addressed, however. Crimvelvet brought up the agriculture case. There is some correlation between the ag case and what is going on in this health care reform discussion. The interestate commerce clause in the Constitution was used successfully against the farmer in that case, and the question as to whether Congress has the right to meddle with our personal behavior is being discussed in many circles as we speak. The following article is from the Wall Street Journal Online September 15, 2009 and written by a former member of the New Jersey judiciary.

Health Care Reform and the Constitution

The question seems to be does regulating our personal and most intimate decisions, i.e. our interactions with our care givers (doctors, etc) fall under interstate commerce and therefore under Congress' domain? I am sure the Supreme Court may be deciding that very issue before this is all over. That is if everything works the way it is supposed to. (There is always Hope)