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Topic started on 29-9-2009 @ 08:43 AM by Hanslune
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This is presentation on the theory of Betty Meggers that pottery development in Valdivia, Ecuador were influenced by Japanese from Jomon.
It is from the Fantastic Archaeology convention held in October 2007
Presentation
I present it with no additional comment, for or against
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reply posted on 29-9-2009 @ 08:56 AM by muzzleflash
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It's true.
There are many cases of Japanese junks (not Chinese) that randomly caught the currents and were washed ashore along the western America's
coastline.
This has occurred for a very long time, and there are many stories that relate it.
Recent DNA evidence has also shown that some native Americans have distinctly Japanese heritage, although this is a small percentage and almost
exclusively on the western coastline.
This evidence bodes well in backing up the findings about the pottery, and should be no surprise to those who have studied the subject in depth.
The chains of connection go much further though, and actually show that the ancient world was far more "globalized" than most commonly believe
today.
We can connect ancient India with Polynesia and South America, as well as ancient African cultures with the South American Olmecs.
Even North America has connections to ancient Europe and Asia.
The Americas were truly the worlds first melting pot, far before contemporary history tells us. However the evidence clearly shows this to be the
case.
Fun subject. 
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reply posted on 29-9-2009 @ 09:03 AM by Hanslune
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reply to post by muzzleflash
Howdy Muzzleflash
You might find the following of interest. I just posted the link below in another thread but hopefully the meriful mods will allow a re-post in this
instance
Japanese drifters
Japanese drifters
Some of the information in the story is contested or not accepted despite the writer actings as it was fact. The information on the drifters is
true.
I'll comment later on some of your connections, some of which did exist and some AFAWK aren't connections, that you wrote about.
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reply posted on 29-9-2009 @ 03:11 PM by punkinworks
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reply to post by Hanslune
Well then isnt that interesting.
When I brought the subject up in a post, I was soundly poo-poo'ed.
I have since unseccsesfully tried to find the ceramics oriented website that had the paper by the japanese ceramics historian, thaty maintained that
some of the pieces were actually jomon, and not jomon inspired, or an example of convergent asthetics.
The researcher found that some pieces were made from a clay that is found only in a certain area of japan. They used some sort of radio isotope
comparision to make the determination.
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reply posted on 30-9-2009 @ 09:01 AM by Hanslune
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reply to post by punkinworks
Howdy PW
Have a link to that study on the clay? I've never seen that in the orthodox world so I'm wondering what you mean by a researcher?
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reply posted on 4-10-2009 @ 03:13 PM by punkinworks
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reply to post by Hanslune
hi hans,
i wish id kept that paper, but it was lost in a failed hard drive.
It also illustrates the transient nature of information on the web.
anyway the paper was by a japanese anthropologist studying the movement of proto polynesian/japanese people through the south west pacific.
he cited work done by ceramics specialists on samples of jomon like pottery found outside of japan.
They found examples in melanesia and polynesia and a couple of pieces from SA that were made from a type of clay only found in southern japan.
A friend of a freind has a phd in ceramics history, ill ask her if she has any insight on this subject
Another possible peice of evidence linking japan with the new world, the hunting bola, used by the jomon and into the recent period in japan, and used
by many tribes in the new world.
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reply posted on 4-10-2009 @ 03:21 PM by SLAYER69
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reply to post by Hanslune
S & F
Great thread as to be expected.
Thanks for the links reading now.
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reply posted on 4-10-2009 @ 03:39 PM by punkinworks
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found a thrifty little paper on the subject at hand
The prehistoric Jomon people of Japan were deep-sea fishermen. Evidence of certain deep-sea marine life in their shell middens dictates their
knowledge of deep-sea fishing technology (Kidder, p. 57).
With the above in mind, it is then possible to postulate that during one of these deep-sea fishing voyages a storm arose and drove the Jomon fishermen
farther out to sea into the Kurshio Current. Due to meager navigational equipment, it would have been difficult to find their way back to their
homeland (Sharp, p. 38). If this was the case, the vessel or vessels would have probably been deposited on the coast of North or South America.
An argument against the above hypothesis is that although the vessel may have made it to the shore of Ecuador, it is improbable that Jomon fishermen
could have survived such a long, unintentional voyage. Groot has suggested the possibility that Jomon people were blown off course by gales to the
area of Melanesia. Pottery of Middle Jomon type has been found among the Papuan-speaking people living there. The distance between Japan and the
Melanesian Islands is 2500 miles. Being able to survive a journey of this length would indicate that the Jomon people were capable of surviving on
ocean products while on long voyages. If this was the case then it is not improbable that these people could have survived a longer voyage from Asia
to America.
ancientamerica.org...
0WORLD.htm?n=0
and this about vadivia
Valdivia, the precocious pottery-bearing Early Formative culture, has held
center stage in Ecuadorian research since its remarkable antiquity was discovered
in the 1950s (Estrada 1956; Estrada, Evans, and Meggers 1959). More than
three decades ago, Meggers, Evans, and Estrada (1965) argued that the precocity
of Valdivia’s ceramic technology could be explained as a trans-Pacif ic introduction
from Japan, brought to the shores of Ecuador by Jomon f ishermen
swept across the ocean by storms and currents. They conceptualized Valdivia as
a foreign-born, littoral culture:
Between 3200 and 1500 B.C. sedentary life on the Ecuadorian coast
appears to have been restricted to the margin of the sea, which provided
a localized food supply that could not be equaled inland until
after the development of agriculture. (Meggers 1966: 51)
www.doaks.org...
and this
sambali.blogspot.com...
At about 3000 BC after a long sea voyage from the southwestern Japanese Islands, a group of fisherman landed on the coast of Ecuador. Meggers,
Evans, and Estrada (1965), who have presented the evidence in support of this happening, so novel in terms of currently accepted theory about New
World cultural development, have modestly suggested that perhaps this was a single boatload of fishermen, lost at sea in a storm, who were unwillingly
brought to the shores of America by the North Pacific ocean current.
There is reason to suspect, however, that this might have been more in the nature of an exploring and colonizing expedition involving a number of
individuals of both sexes and varied skills. Subsequent events in the Americas suggest that these people had a seafaring, exploring and colonizing
tradition, similar to that fo the later Polynesians and Vikings. Solheim (1964[a]:360, 376—84) has offered statistical evidence to show that one of
three sources of Malayan and Polynesian ceramic traditions was influenced from the Japanese Islands at an estimated date of 1000 to 500 BC. The
extensive spread of this 'Sa-Hunh-Kalanay' tradition in the southwestern Pacific certainly implies a seafaring tradition. Most of the ceramic
shapes, decorative elements, and design motifs are similar to those postulated to have spread to the Americas between 3000 and 1000 B.C.
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reply posted on 4-10-2009 @ 05:29 PM by punkinworks
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This is all very fascinating
I have a rather personal interest in ecuador's history.
My own phillipino surname is a spanish name for a tribe of indians around quito, ecuador.
The family name goes back to the late 16th century in the phillipines, and they were among the first christain converts in the colony.
Whats a shame is that there was a 17th century church in my families villiage that had geneologies going back to the conversion, but the records were
destroyed by the japanese when they burned the villiage in ww2.
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reply posted on 5-10-2009 @ 04:30 PM by Harte
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Originally posted by punkinworks
When I brought the subject up in a post, I was soundly poo-poo'ed.
I recall that thread. It seems to me it ended with "maybe, but maybe not."
Wouldn't exactly call that "pooh-poohing."
Originally posted by punkinworks
The researcher found that some pieces were made from a clay that is found only in a certain area of japan. They used some sort of radio isotope
comparision to make the determination.
I don't remember that part of it - could be it was posted during one of my several absences from here though.
I'm with Hans, I'd really like to see that.
Harte
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reply posted on 5-10-2009 @ 11:31 PM by punkinworks
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reply to post by Harte
I really wish i still had the paper, and the accompanying links, it was very fascinating,
I have tried to retrace the search that I used to find it but to no avail. Its been 4-5 years since I read it, so im a little fuzzy on the
details.
The main paper was on how the various peoples that make up the japanesemoved through southeast asia, sw pacific and the nw pacific.
The author, a japanese anthroplogist, mainly focused on the three or four different groups of people that make up the modern japanese.
He cited the melanesian, polynesian and new world finds of of jomon pottery.
In the bibliography was a link to a paper by some very ceramics oriented researchers.
They say that there is a specific type of clay that is found only in southern japan, that has a very distinct ratio of some sort of radio isotope,
possibly oxygen.
im also thinking that it was related to local vulcanism or something.
I know its not up to standards for recitation but its the best I can do.
Any how the whole valdivia, japan link is very compelling, as it seems pottery shows up in this part of SA fully developed with no predecesors.
I also remember a national geographic? special many many years ago about a tribe of indians on the coast of costa rica or panama, whos distintive
language was related to an archaic form of japanese, and japanese anthropologists could pick out words here and there.
Could these indians have had shipwrecked japanese sailors as ancestors?
this thread brings yet more very fascinating aspects of our history as humans to light.
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reply posted on 6-10-2009 @ 12:07 AM by punkinworks
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In searching for the previously mentioned article on japan/valdivia connection I found some very interesting references to 'Sa-Hunh-Kalanay' or the
dragon and bird clans.
Archaeologist Wilhelm Solheim has proposed lately that Jomon-like Valdivia pottery of Ecuador and other pottery resembling the Sa-Huynh-Kalanay
tradition has its ultimate origin in Southeast Asia.
Solheim quotes the seminal work of the late James Ford, A Comparison of Formative Cultures in the Americas: Diffusion or the Psychic Unity of Man:
At about 3000 BC after a long sea voyage from the southwestern Japanese Islands, a group of fisherman landed on the coast of Ecuador. Meggers, Evans,
and Estrada (1965), who have presented the evidence in support of this happening, so novel in terms of currently accepted theory about New World
cultural development, have modestly suggested that perhaps this was a single boatload of fishermen, lost at sea in a storm, who were unwillingly
brought to the shores of America by the North Pacific ocean current.
There is reason to suspect, however, that this might have been more in the nature of an exploring and colonizing expedition involving a number of
individuals of both sexes and varied skills. Subsequent events in the Americas suggest that these people had a seafaring, exploring and colonizing
tradition, similar to that fo the later Polynesians and Vikings. Solheim (1964[a]:360, 376—84) has offered statistical evidence to show that one of
three sources of Malayan and Polynesian ceramic traditions was influenced from the Japanese Islands at an estimated date of 1000 to 500 BC. The
extensive spread of this 'Sa-Hunh-Kalanay' tradition in the southwestern Pacific certainly implies a seafaring tradition. Most of the ceramic
shapes, decorative elements, and design motifs are similar to those postulated to have spread to the Americas between 3000 and 1000 B.C.
The remarkable variety of the Valdivia ceramics suggests that more than one or two individuals, or lineages, founded and maintained this tradition.
The highly selective fashion in which certain elements of the complex were spread to other parts of the Americas, also argues that specialization in
this craft had already developed. Furthermore, as varied as it is the Valdivia ceramic complex does not represent the entire range of pottery
manufactured at 3000 B.C. in southwestern Japan. As with the early English settlement at Jamestown in Virgina, the products manufactured corresponded
to the experience and training of the craftsmen brought from the mother country (Ford 1969: 183-184).
Solheim believes based on the similarities of the Valdivia and other assemblages in decoration and form with the Sa-Huynh-Kalanay complex that
Nusantao voyagers from were making infrequent visits to the west coast of the Americas starting around 3000 BCE using the Kuroshio (Japan)
Current.
sambali.blogspot.com...
Items and such from the phillipines and south east asia show up in madagascar, and that the native madagascarian language is related to bisayan from
thew phillipines, my grandmother is speaks bisayan.
And a mesopotamin seal that bears a a motiff of a south east asian swamp buffalo.
The image of a water buffalo or a man with buffalo horns appears also in the iconography of the Sumerians. Indeed, we see that the water buffalo
in Sumer is none other than the Southeast Asian swamp buffalo. Remains of this species have also been found at Sumerian archaeological sites.
The swamp buffalo is different than the river buffalo of India. It originates in Southeast Asia but is historically absent from India. It was however
found in ancient Sri Lanka apparently brought by sea from Southeast Asia.
Swamp buffalo on the Seal of Sharkalisharri, 3rd millennium BC, Sumer
sambali.blogspot.com...
A little off topic but it speaks to how much the people of this part of the pacific got around
[edit on 6-10-2009 by punkinworks]
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reply posted on 6-10-2009 @ 08:22 AM by Hanslune
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Howdy Punkinwork
I was one of Solheims students. He certainly didn't have these ideas in the 60s and 70s.
I can see his intention to link proto-Japanese influences on the Polynesian and Melansian pottery cultures but the coast of Americas?
Solheim believes based on the similarities of the Valdivia and other assemblages in decoration and form with the Sa-Huynh-Kalanay complex that
Nusantao voyagers from were making infrequent visits to the west coast of the Americas starting around 3000 BCE using the Kuroshio (Japan) Current.
That seems more an interpretation of that website I believe. Let me investigate that a bit more. He's 85 and doesn't use email as far as I know.
Hmmmm.
I wonder if that is coming from his wife who had a more adventurous view of the world? (she was also a scientist)
On your earlier post, a valid study showing Japanese origin pottery in the Americas would have made a big 'splash'. Yet there has been no ripples in
the pond. I'd be skeptical of that one.
[edit on 6/10/09 by Hanslune]
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reply posted on 6-10-2009 @ 10:10 AM by Harte
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Originally posted by punkinworks
And a mesopotamin seal that bears a a motiff of a south east asian swamp buffalo.
The image of a water buffalo or a man with buffalo horns appears also in the iconography of the Sumerians. Indeed, we see that the water buffalo
in Sumer is none other than the Southeast Asian swamp buffalo. Remains of this species have also been found at Sumerian archaeological sites.
The swamp buffalo is different than the river buffalo of India. It originates in Southeast Asia but is historically absent from India. It was however
found in ancient Sri Lanka apparently brought by sea from Southeast Asia.
A little off topic but it speaks to how much the people of this part of the pacific got around
The presence of a swamp buffalo in Sumer is no indication that it came by way of any sea voyage.
The swamp buffalo species in question certainly cannot be identified from a stylized cylinder seal depiction, and anyway, water buffalos of all types
originate on mainland Asia. The Sumerians had Zebu cattle as well, a species that also originates in South Asia.
BTW, among water buffalo, "river" type water buffalo have curved horns (typically) while "swamp" type water buffalo have curved horns too but
their horns are also swept back.
The seal shown in the linked pic does not show whether the horns are actually swept back or not. I'm not saying their were no "swamp" buffalo
there, I am saying that the author's identification of the creature on that seal as a "swamp buffalo" is suspect because of the position of the
horns.
In fact, you can't really tell if that is a water buffalo at all, it could be a Zebu which is a
type of cattle and not a water buffalo at all.
Here's a link that shows stylized Zebus depicted in Sumerian Art:
Link
The link leads to page 257. Scroll up to page 256 to see a Zebu drawing.
Harte
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