USAF "force fit" debunks.

Thread dealing with spurious, contrived or just plain ridiculous 'official' government UFO explanations.

I'm sure there are many people out there who just accept these USAF 'debunks' without a second look but if a person actualy examines the case histories then many of these evaluations simply fail to stand up.

Heres a relevant statement made by Dr James E Mcdonald from the University of Arizona:

"As a result of several trips to project Bluebook,I´ve had an opportunity to examine quite carefully and in detail the types of reports that are made by Bluebook personnel.In most cases, I have found that theres almost no correlation between so-called "evaluations and explanations" that are made by Bluebook and the facts of the case...
There are hundreds of good cases in the Air Force files that should have led to top-level scientific scrutiny of this problem,years ago,yet these cases have been swept under the rug in a most disturbing way by Project Bluebook investigators and their consultants."

Dr James McDonald -Senior physicist at the Institute for Atmospheric Physics and professor in the Department of Meteorology at the University of Arizona

If anyone knows of any more examples then please feel free to post.

The Redmond Oregon UFO Incident.


Incident

Shortly before dawn on September 24th,1959,Police Officer Robert Dickerson was driving through the streets of Redmond,Oregon when he saw a large,bright object descend over the city,stop abruptly,and hover at two hundred feet.
The object was low enough that nearby treetops glowed.
Minutes later,Dickerson drove to the Federal Aviation Administration Office at the Redmond Airport.
Meanwhile,the object rapidly moved to an area northeast of the airport and once again hovered. Its colour changed from bright white to reddish orange.
Through binoculars,Dickerson and others perceived it as flat and round;tongues of "flame" occasionaly extended from its edge.

At 5:10,the F.A.A. reported the object to Seattle Air Route Control Centre,which relayed the message to Hamilton Air Force Base in California.
At 5 :18 A.M.,six F-102 jet fighters were scrambled from Portland to intercept.
Witnesses were still watching the hovering object when the jets roared over Redmond. As the aircraft approached,the object squelched its "tongues of flame",emitted a fiery exhaust,shot up into the air at an incredible speed,and disappeared into the clouds at fourteen thousand feet.
It was so close to the path of the jets that one of the pilots swerved to avoid hitting it. Another jet,caught in the turbulence of the tremendous exhaust,nearly lost control.One pilot,using gunsight radar,continued the chase,but the object abruptly changed course-an event that was tracked on radar at Klamath Falls Ground Control Intercept -and the pilot gave up.
For two hours afterward,the unknown object continued to register on radar,performing high-speed maneuvers at altitudes between six thousand and fifty-four thousand feet.


USAF "Force fit" debunk:

The pilots immediatley received an intelligence debriefing and were ordered not to discuss the matter,even among themselves.But hundreds of Redmond citizens had heard the jets,some had seen the interceptors,and a few had made reports about the unknown object.
Forced into an explanation,the air force said the flight was a routine investigation caused by false radar returns.Excitable witnesses probably imagined the glow.
Word soon leaked out,however,that the F.A.A. was checking for abnormal radioactivity where witnesses saw the object hover and "blast off".
This made it difficult for people to swallow the air force explanation.
Why would the F.A.A. check for abnormal radiation if the whole event was illusionary?
As a result the air force changed its solution: the object everyone had seen was probably a weather balloon.It did not bother to explain how weather balloon could outdistance jets flying 600 mph.
When offering this explanation,the air force did not know that the nation´s leading civilian UFO group -the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena -had obtained certified copies of F.A.A. logs.
This was an unexpected coup,as the F.A.A. logs described the UFO and its maneuvers in great detail,including its evasion from the interceptors.The logs also included air force confirmations of radar tracking,scrambling of Portland jets,and a report from Klamth Falls.
When this information became public,the air force promptly denounced the F.A.A. for issuing false information and maintained its balloon answer.

After more pressure from NICAP and several legislators, however, the airforce finally announced the "true" explanation: the witnessess had seen planet Venus.

Link

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Dayton,USA -March 8th,1950

An extraordinary encounter took place on March 8th,1950, once again right over ATIC in Dayton. In mid morning,TWA pilot Capt.W .H. Kerr reported to the Civil Aeronautics Administration (CAA) that he and two other TWA pilots saw a UFO hovering at a high altitude.
The pilots were unaware that CAA had received over twenty other reports describing a UFO in the area.
ATIC contol tower operators saw the object,and the radar had an unidentified target in the same position.Something was up there.

Wright Patterson AFB sent four F-51 fighters to intercept.Two of the pilots saw the object,which appeared round and,in the words of one of them, "huge and metallic".
It appeared to be hiding in a cloud formation,which prevented the pilots from closing on it. They eventualy turned back.The Master Sergeant who tracked the object on radar stated
"The target was a good,solid return....caused by a good,solid target", Witnesses reported that the UFO climbed verticaly out of sight at high speed.

A report was sent to the Civil Aeronautics Authority in Washington,then turned over to Air Force Intelligence -

ATIC's official answer was that the UFO had been the planet Venus.
The pilots and radar men vehemently disagreed.

Link

----

30th May 1952 - Chorwon ,Korea.

Several U.S. soldiers saw a bright UFO that looked like a falling star,except that it stopped falling and began to climb again.
It then moved northeast at about 150mph, reversed course twice,then climbed at a forty five degree angle and faded from sight.
One guard reported a pulsating sound from the object.
An Air Intelligence Information Report stated that an F-94 attempted to intercept this object.
The pilot described it as round,of unknown size, "brilliant white" and leaving no exhaust.
It undertook clearly evasive maneuvers and pulled away from the F-94 at thirty thousand feet.
According to this intelligence report,"the object possessed a superior speed,superior climbing ability,and was able to turn equally as well as the F-94"

Blue Book's evaluation: balloon with flare.

Link

The kind of obvious lying and belittling government agencies do is just horrible, just because they have media backing they can say anything and the ignorant majority of the populus will just eat it up.
The national investigations comittee on areal pheonomena arent making this up, disclosure needs to happen soon, i believe it is impending that one day soon we will be able to show indispuitable information tot he public.
The 911 truth movement has already debunked enough government lies to have them locked up for genocide, but unfortunately the government are so; because they're in power.

Is there any more nefarious of an example than Roswell?! Talk about a force fit debunk. That's why every other post on this board has some such snarky comment or other relating to a Weather Balloon or some other innane and innocuous insult to our collective intelligence.

Good Post as always, Karl! S+F

Cheers,

Erik

reply to post by GW8UK

the ignorant majority of the populus will just eat it up

The populace is not so ignorant anymore. From a few years ago:

A new national poll found that 72 percent of Americans believe the government is not telling the public everything it knows about UFO activity, and 68 percent think the government knows more about extraterrestrial life than it is letting on, the SCI FI Channel reported. The poll—sponsored by SCI FI as part of its promotion for Steven Spielberg's 20-hour SF miniseries Taken—also revealed that men more than women think such information should be shared with the public. RoperASW conducted the poll of 1,021 adults aged 18 and over from Aug. 23-25. The margin of error is 3 percent.

Link

and

Most Americans say it is very likely or somewhat likely that humans are not alone in the universe and that intelligent life exists on other planets.

Link 2


Now I am not a great believer in polls being totally accurate, but these polls do seem to indicate that people are no longer ignorant and no longer believe everything fed to them by the media and military.

The FAA has since learned to not get caught directly dealing with the UFO phenomena. It's actually their explicit public policy.

In FAA's Order 7110.65S ("a manual that prescribes air traffic control procedures and phraseology for use by personnel providing air traffic control services") and the FAA's Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM), (which "(...) contains the fundamentals required in order to fly in the United States National Airspace System."), under Chapter 9, Section 8 and Chapter 7, Section 6 of the respective documents, we find something titled Unidentified Flying Object (UFO) Reports and where we can read:

a. Persons wanting to report UFO/Unexplained Phenomena activity should contact an UFO/Unexplained Phenomena Reporting Data Collection Center, such as the National Institute for Discovery Sciences (NIDS), the National UFO Reporting Center, etc.

b. If concern is expressed that life or property might be endangered, report the activity to the local law enforcement department.

Even if air traffic controllers or pilots express concern "that life or property might be endangered" because of UFOs, the FAA doesn't want to deal with it and relegates the matter to local law enforcement that obviously don't have the means to do anything about it.

Originally posted by deltaalphanovember
Now I am not a great believer in polls being totally accurate, but these polls do seem to indicate that people are no longer ignorant and no longer believe everything fed to them by the media and military.

People are mistrustful of Government in general, this is nothing particular to the UFO subject.

I bet that every poll conducted that started with the words "Do you think the Government is telling the people everything it knows about (...)", regardless of whatever followed it, every single one of them would show the majority of people saying No.

Mistrust and knowledge are two completely different things.

Unfortunately for those of us who believe the UFO phenomena should be scientifically investigated, the majority of people remain ignorant about the reality of UFOs.

Thanks for the replies -couldn't agree more.

Another extremely dubious USAF 'debunk' is the official explanation for the Portage County incident from April,1966.

Easynow has done a great thread on this one here .

Below are some police witness statements and descriptions of the object:

Testimony:

"I always look behind me so no one can come up behind me. And when I looked in this wooded area behind us, I saw this thing.... As it came over the trees, I looked at Barney and he was still watching the car.. and he didn't say nothing and the thing kept getting brighter and the area started to get light..."

The object was about fifty feet in diameter, with a bright, well-defined light beam shining down from the bottom.

"When Barney Neff saw the object he just stood there with his mouth open for a minute as bright as it was, and he looked down. And I started looking down and I looked at my hands and my clothes weren't burning or anything, when it stopped right over on top of us. The only thing, the only sound in the whole area was a hum... like a transformer being loaded or an overloaded transformer when it changes..."

They broke for their patrol car. Once safely inside, Spaur radioed a quick report. A Sergeant Schoenfelt told them to follow the object. They chased the object at speeds of up to 100 mph as it headed east, constantly reporting their position on the radio to allow other officers to follow the chase.

As the object moved to the east, Officer H. Wayne Huston of East Palestine, Ohio joined in the chase. He had been listening to the radio reports, and when he saw the object pass overhead with Spaur and Neff close behind, he took off in pursuit.

The chase continued across the state line into Pennsylvania, and as Spaur's vehicle got low on gas, he pulled over to enlist the aid of a Conway, Pennsylvania officer. When Spaur stopped, so did the object. They phoned the Air Force from Conway, and minutes later over the radio they heard that jet fighters were being scrambled to intercept the object. The object had other plans, however, and it suddenly shot straight up and vanished.

Frank Panzenella, a Conway, PA police officer said:

"The object was the shape of half a football, was very bright and about 25 to 35 feet in diameter.... The object continued to go upward until it got as small as a ballpoint pen. Relative to the moon, the object was quite distant and to the left of the moon. We all four watched the object shoot straight up and disappear."

Police Chief Gerald Buchert of Mantua photographed the object from in front of his home. The Air Force told him not to release the photo, but The Cleveland Plain Dealer reported that the photo showed an object that was like two saucers put together, with a light upper saucer upside down over a dark lower saucer. The picture was only seen by a reporter and Mr. Weitzel, NICAP investigator, who was not convinced, but it was never available for analysis.

You need to read Mr. Weitzel's investigation details in his letter to Prof. Powers to realize just how stunning the events were.

Spaur stated:

"Somebody had control over it. It wasn't just an object floating around. It can manoeuver."

USAF Debunkery:

The official Air Force evaluation has concluded that the case is explained "by an astronomical phenomenon." When asked for details, they explained that the officers had seen a satellite at first, and then had chased the planet Venus for forty-odd miles.

Absolutely none of the witness and investigators could agree with this perfectly ridiculous explanation. But at that time, after the Robertson Panel organized by the CIA, Project Blue Book did not have anything left of a possibly sincere research project but had clearly become an anti-UFO propaganda machine.

The investigation by Major Quintanilla actually consisted in a two minutes and a half phone call to the sole Dale Spaur, starting with this question: "tell me about this mirage you saw."

Link

Cheers.


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Originally posted by GW8UK
The national investigations comittee on areal pheonomena arent making this up

No, they're most certainly not.

NICAP lists some quite remarkable incidents in their UFO Evidence report - perhaps the one thing they all have in common is that UFO cynics rarely want to address them.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f14d1ad21bed.jpg[/atsimg]

NICAP Evidence report

---

Originally posted by redwoodjedi
Is there any more nefarious of an example than Roswell?! Talk about a force fit debunk.

Erik -Amen to that, I think the USAF has changed its mind more times than I've had hot dinners.










--

Originally posted by converge
The FAA has since learned to not get caught directly dealing with the UFO phenomena. It's actually their explicit public policy.

In FAA's Order 7110.65S ("a manual that prescribes air traffic control procedures and phraseology for use by personnel providing air traffic control services") and the FAA's Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM), (which "(...) contains the fundamentals required in order to fly in the United States National Airspace System."), under Chapter 9, Section 8 and Chapter 7, Section 6 of the respective documents, we find something titled Unidentified Flying Object (UFO) Reports..

Converge, thanks for the reply -some great info there.
There's also some further reading here about NORAD and Unknown Track Reports.

Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Appropriate statements:

"I feel that the Air Force has misled us for twenty years.I equate almost all of that misrepresentation to incompetence and superficiality on the part of the Air Frce investigators involved with Project bluebook and its forerunners.Nobody there with any strong scientific competence s looking into the problem ."
Dr James McDonald -Senior physicist at the Institute for Atmospheric Physics and professor in the Department of Meteorology at the University of Arizona






"I was there at [Project] Bluebook and I know the job they had. They were told not to excite the public, not to rock the boat... Whenever a case happened that they coud explain--which was quite a few--they made a point of that, and let that out to the media. . .Cases that were very difficult to explain, they would jump handsprings to keep the media away from them. They had a job to do, rightfully or wrongfully, to keep the public from getting excited."
Dr. J. Allen Hynek, former Chairman of the Dept. of Astronomy at North Western University and scientific advisor to Project Bluebook from 1952-1969






"Based upon unreliable and unscientific surmises as data, the Air Force develops elaborate statistical findings which seem impressive to the uninitiated public unschooled in the fallacies of the statistical method. One must conclude that the highly publicized Air Force pronouncements based upon unsound statistics serve merely to misrepresent the true character of the UFO phenomena."
Yale Scientific Magazine (Yale University) Volume XXXVII, Number 7, April 1963






"Blue Book was now under direct orders to debunk...I remember the conversations around the conference table in which it was suggested that Walt Disney or some other educational cartoon producer be enlisted in the debunking process".
Dr J Allen Hynek, Chairman of the Department of Astronomy at Northwestern University and scientific consultant for Air Force investigations of UFOs from 1948 until 1969 (Projects Sign, Grudge and Blue Book).






"My study of past official Air Force investigations (Project Blue Book) leads me to describe them as completely superficial. Officially released 'explanations' of important UFO sightings have been almost absurdly erroneous."
Senior Atmospherical Physicist Dr James McDonald, speech to American Meteorological Society 1966






"Project Blue Book was ballyhooed by the Air Force as a full-fledged top-priority operation. It was no such thing. The staff, in a sense, was a joke. In terms of scientific training and numbers, it was highly inadequate to the task. And the methods used were positively archaic. And that is the crack operation that the general public believes looked adequately into the UFO phenomenon".
Dr J Allen Hynek, Chairman of the Department of Astronomy at Northwestern University and scientific consultant for Air Force investigations of UFOs from 1948 until 1969 (Projects Sign, Grudge and Blue Book).

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

SWISSAIR 127'S NEAR MISS WITH A UFO

Incident feaured on this (excellent) documentary at 6:57

Pilot Transmission recording:

Swissair Flight 127 (Probably Capt. Bobet speaking.) "ATC Swissair 127."

ATC = Boston Air Route Traffic Control Center, Danbury Sector 22: "Go ahead Swissair."

Swissair: "Yes sir, I don't know what it was, but it just over flew just like a couple of hundred feet above us. I don't know if it was a rocket or whatever. But incredibly fast. Opposite direction."

ATC: "In the opposite direction?"

Swissair: "Yes sir, and the time was two-one-zero-seven (5:07 PM local time). It was too fast to be an airplane."

ATC: "OK, thank you."

(ATC): To Houston 986, another airplane in the vicinity of Swissair 127: "Did you see anything like a missile in your area, perhaps off to your right?"

H 986: "I'll take a good look, but if it's going that fast, I probably won't get a chance. We just saw Swissair go by a minute ago."

Swissair 127: "We had no warning. It was way too fast!"



Force Fit debunk

The radio report was so provocative that the Boston Flight Standards office was notified while the airplane was still airborne and a FFA officer was sent to meet the crew. The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), along with the FAA met the pilots. Normally this type of meeting is unheard of. The next day the Swissair crew was interviewed separately by four government agents. Bob Durant a commercial airline pilot later interviewed the Captain Bobet who said, he was clearly dismayed the balloon explanation. "He thought it preposterous!"

Captain Bolet thought, "The path of the UFO was from opposite direction, slightly right. Estimated horizontal distance-between First Officer's seat and engine #3, vertical distance between 100 and 200 feet above the aircraft. "At the same time, I saw the First Officer plunging his head down towards his knees. The Flight Officer mentioned later that he thought he would get hit by the object. The UFO speed appeared to be very high. The object was white and balloons are dark. Balloons fly for about an hour and the last one had been launched ten hours earlier.

Transmission recording

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Originally posted by karl 12

SWISSAIR 127'S NEAR MISS WITH A UFO

*snip*

Incident feaured on this (excellent) documentary at 6:57
www.youtube.com...

Lemme help with that vid link, Karl! good job by the way!

Cheers,

Erik

There is no idea how such power might be attained so there
is no way a vehicle that behaves the way observed can be given
credence other than there was no vehicle.

Thus Blue Book can explain away anything.

Some (I didn't read all) of those explanations are really hard to accept, and that is why I consider them as less likely to really explain what happened.

But something in your opening post helps to understand their position. When you read something like "Forced into an explanation" and put yourself in their shoes, what could they do? If it was a known (by them) craft but they could not talk about it, what would they say? If it was unknown, how could they say that they didn't know what it was and keep their position as part of the forces that are supposed to defend the US?

And that doesn't mean we should accept other explanations just because they go against these, we should consider all explanations by their own merits, and that's the problem I have with those explanations that say only "it's an extraterrestrial craft", they do not explain a thing and are as well supported (or even less) than "it was the planet Venus".

Originally posted by ArMaP
Some (I didn't read all) of those explanations are really hard to accept, and that is why I consider them as less likely to really explain what happened.

Well thanks for getting back to me regarding this thread,I'd certainly agree with you there - to my mind these explanations are completely spurious and ,in the words of one of the leading physicists of the time, 'absurdly erroneous'.

Originally posted by ArMaP
If it was unknown, how could they say that they didn't know what it was and keep their position as part of the forces that are supposed to defend the US?

I can see what you're saying but whats the point in having an investigation in the first place if all you are going to do is obfuscate the truth and concoct dishonest falsehoods?

Do you not think these nonsensical debunks were just window dressing for the public so the USAF could reduce their statistical numbers of 'actual unknowns'?

Originally posted by ArMaPAnd that doesn't mean we should accept other explanations just because they go against these, we should consider all explanations by their own merits..

Yes,given the facts about the case and based on deductive reasoning what would you say the nature of the object involved in the Redmond Oregon case actualy was?

Cheers.

reply to post by karl 12

Yes, I think that most of those strange debunks were just to keep people from getting worried about things they do not even knew what they were.

Do you imagine how things would have been if, besides the fears with Russia and the whole atomic paranoia (at least that's the idea I get from how things were at the time in the US), people had to face the fears of an even stronger side that was a completely unknown?

And no, I don't have the slightest idea of what it could have been.

reply to post by karl 12


S & F

Come on we all know project blue book did the very best they could. Leaving no stone unturned.

Every sighting was explainable as either a weather balloon or swamp gas.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b1a21d6507b5.jpg[/atsimg]

[edit on 5-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by karl 12


good subject and thread karl 12,

i'm glad you started this discussion because people that are new to this subject need to know and understand that the Air Force and all the other agencies involved purposely came up with these ridiculous excuses to dismiss the sightings and discourage the public from investigating them. they also did it imo because they couldn't explain what the UFO's were and that would make them look bad. the dis info campaign is still happening today.

good job on posting the Portage county Ohio incident , that is a really good example of a solid case that was given a "force fit" explanation. there are too many more to list but one i thought of when i seen this thread was the April 18 , 1962 Las Vegas UFO Crash also known as the Eureka UFO Landing that was witnessed by thousands of people.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Though it may be debatable whether the above cases of electrical transmission failure were merely coincidences with UFO activity, an incident on April 18,1962, involving a UFO that had been tracked from New York, through Kansas to Eureka, Utah, was well documented. The Air Force spokesman admitted that the object had landed, and during the 42 minutes that it was on the ground near the power station there was no power, but it was restored when the UFO left. The object was pursued by jet interceptors summoned from Phoenix and Stead Field in Reno until it exploded over the Mesquite Range in Nevada in a brilliant glare that was visible over five states.(67)

www.nicap.org...


the UFO was listed on the project Blue Book card as a meteor and civilians that inquired about the event were told by a Air Force personel that is was a U-2 spyplane or a weather Balloon.



like i said good thread S+F

Originally posted by easynow
good subject and thread karl 12,

i'm glad you started this discussion because people that are new to this subject need to know and understand that the Air Force and all the other agencies involved purposely came up with these ridiculous excuses to dismiss the sightings and discourage the public from investigating them.

Easynow - thanks for the reply and I certainly don't think you're wrong about that one.
If you've not seen it before, theres a great documentary below posted from Dimensional Detective's thread here which shows Dr Hyneck making some very revealing comments about Bluebook debunking methods - it also features the infamous 'Major Hector Quintanilla' who performed such a transparent hatchet job on the Portage County incident (around 1:22).





Found your thread below to be a mighty interesting read BTW.

The Unsolved UFO Mystery of April 18,1962

Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by karl 12


thanks i will be checking that out for sure.

here is a good video describing the coverup of this subject by the Air Force and other agencies. George Knapp also knows they lie about it.

check out the part at 3:01 and tell me there was not an effort to hide the truth from the public.

reply to post by easynow


Easynow,thanks for posting that one -the dustbin lid explanation is an absolute winner (are they being serious?)

Found this other classic bovine dung explanation from Goose Bay, Labrador, 1948:

Summer 1948; Goose Bay, Labrador

Major Edwin A. Jerome, USAF (Ret.) reported the following information to NICAP in 1961. Major Jerome was a Command Pilot, Air Provost Marshal for about 8 years, and also served as an Intelligence Officer and CID Investigator.

"My only real contact with the UFO problem was way back in the summer of 1948 while stationed at Goose Bay, Labrador. There an incident happened which is worthy of note. It seems that a high-ranking inspection team was visiting the radar facilities of this base whose mission at the time was to serve as a prime refueling and servicing air base for all military and civilian aircraft plying the north Atlantic air routes. GCA [Ground Control Approach radar] was a critical part of this picture, thus these high-ranking officers RCAF & USAF up to the rank of General as I recall.

"While inspecting the USAF radar shack, the operator noted a high-speed target on his scope going from NE to SW. Upon computation of the speed it was found to be about 9000 mph. This incident caused much consternation in the shack since obviously this was no time for levity or miscalculations in the presence of an inspecting party. The poor airman technician was brought to task for his apparent miscalculation. Again the target appeared and this time the inspectors were actually shown the apparition on the radar screen. The only reaction to this was that obviously the American equipment was way off calibration.

"The party then proceeded to the Canadian side to inspect the RCA"' GCA facility Upon their arrival the OIC related his most unbelievable target they had just seen. The inspecting officers were appalled that such a coincidence should happen. I was part of the meager intelligence reporting machinery at the base and I was called in to make an immediate urgent intelligence report on the incident. The prevailing theory at the time was that it was a meteor. I personally discounted this since upon interviewing the radar observers on both sides of the base they stated that it maintained an altitude of 60,000 feet and a speed of approximately 9000 mph.

To make this story more incredible the very next day both radars again reported an object hovering over the base at about 10 mph, at 45,000 feet.
The "official" story on this was that they were probably some type of "high-flying sea gulls".

www.nicap.org...

Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]