A new push to define 'person,' and to outlaw abortion in the process

A new push to define 'person,' and to outlaw abortion in the process

www.latimes.com

When does a fertilized egg become a person?

Abortion foes, tired of a profusion of laws that limit but do not abolish abortion, are trying to answer the question in a way that they hope could put an end to legalized abortion.

Critics deride the effort as the "egg-as-person" movement and say it threatens in vitro fertilization; some kinds of birth control, including IUDs and pills; and stem cell research. They say that Americans will reject it as a government intrusion into their privacy.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Sounds good to me
Personally, I consider myself very pro-choice
But I do not find that Abortion has anything to do with pro-choice.

Pro choice means you can do whatever you want to your body, but during pregnancy there's another body in your womb, and the mother does not have complete ownership of that fetus or can decide to end it's life or not.

I guess if I were given that poll I would chose both, i'm pro life and pro choice.

www.latimes.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

I am sorry but no-one will ever convince me that an egg has feelings. I can understand the debate about abortion late in the pregnancy when the foetus has formed a proper brain and actually LOOKS like a human, but at the egg stage of development it's an absolutely ridiculous argument.

There are ramifications to overturning roe v. wade that many people fail to recognize. The book "Freakonomics" does a very good job of explaining it in my opinion. I won't go into specifics because it's extremely controversial, but I recommend it as a decent read for anyone interested in exploring the "behind the numbers" side of abortion.

So I guess everyone that masturbates or has protected sex commits genocide.

How about females that don't stay constantly knocked up?

Wouldn't passing a unfertilized egg be murder because it has the potential to be a person?

Reminds me of the song from the Monty Python movie The Meaning of Life,

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

[edit on 28-9-2009 by lucentenigma]

This makes me wonder if the redefining of the word "person" has alternative motives. As the freeman on the land movement, knows full well, that the term "person" is the legal term for the strawman version of you. The one who is taxed and taken to prison. You are NOT a person at ANY time of your life. You are a human being, a man or a woman. NOT a person. There is a huge legal difference.

Originally posted by lucentenigma
So I guess everyone that masturbates or has protected sex commits genocide.

You do know that you are reffering to a seed rather than the actual end result right?

That analogy is completely irrelevant

Originally posted by lucentenigma
How about females that don't stay constantly knocked up?

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Originally posted by lucentenigma
Wouldn't passing a unfertilized egg be murder because it has the potential to be a person?

Let me put it this way to you
I am a hindu vegetarian for example, but I do eat eggs
I do not kill living things or eat what was once living
But I don't give into the "what could have been" argument
So I eat eggs

It's completely different, what you are referring to is a completely different topic

a fetus is not a seed
a seed is a seed
a fetus is a fetus and a living thing

reply to post by lucentenigma


Since when do sperm have a beating heart and brain? I wasn't aware sperm could have circulatory systems.

[edit on 28-9-2009 by Wimbly]

Great, America needs to go back to back alley abortions, self induced coathanger abortions, chemical douche, and bus trips to Mexico.

Those were the good old days!

Boy, I hate abortion, but this is absurd!

As disgusting as I find abortion, I think it is a decision that should be left to the woman, her doctor and the father if he's in the picture. The state or some busybody has NO place in making this decision.

My continuing hope is that some day girls/woman will take responsibility for
themselves and practice birth control rather than using abortion as birth control.
As far as the ones that get pregnant while using birth control, they need to deal with the fact that they danced to the tune and now must take responsibility and pay the piper. If they don't want the child, there are thousands of couples desperate for a child and it should be put up for adoption. Of course, I know my hoping for this is just a pipe dream!

Originally posted by Wimbly
reply to post by lucentenigma

 

Since when do sperm have a beating heart and brain? I wasn't aware sperm could have circulatory systems.

I was not aware that an egg had these either.

[edit on 28/9/2009 by Kryties]

Double Post.

[edit on 28/9/2009 by Kryties]

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
Pro choice means you can do whatever you want to your body, but during pregnancy there's another body in your womb, and the mother does not have complete ownership of that fetus or can decide to end it's life or not.

Well... we can't ask a fetus, we can't even ask a baby. If it isn't for mom to decide what should happen to it, who should we ask?
(personally i left a lot of the decisions about what is going to happen to me in the hands of my mom for almost 2 decades)

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
You do know that you are reffering to a seed rather than the actual end result right?

That analogy is completely irrelevant

Originally posted by ModernAcademiaCritics deride the effort as the "egg-as-person" movement

Maybe you should have been clearer, I was referring to the 'egg-as-person" comment. My post was more of a sarcastic take on that. Before you know it 'seeds' will be considered unborn children.

Originally posted by WimblySince when do sperm have a beating heart and brain? I wasn't aware sperm could have circulatory systems.

Thanks for the smart # remark. I wasn't aware unfertilized female eggs had these features either.






[edit on 28-9-2009 by lucentenigma]

Let me preface this by saying that I have a daughter and that we have another little one in the oven. Personally I think abortion should be only used in cases where the mothers life is in danger. You should be using contraception or keep it in your pants. If you don't want unwanted pregnancy.

However as an american I firmly believe that a woman has a right to excersize freedom to choose an abortion if she so chooses.

I also firmly believe that the government has no business regulating whether or not a woman can make that choice.

I also believe that legislation backed by religious groups is dangerous to our country. IMO this is one of those instances.

Sure first we start with getting abortions outlawed because religious anti abortion groups give a good reason.

However now what happens when a muslim, hindu or whatever else religious group wants to pass a law banning something that's against their religion?

Slippery slope.

Religion and Government need to be seperate for a reason. Otherwise we start getting tyrrany of the people.

reply to post by grey580


Religion is irrelevant
abortion is murder, murder is illegal in every country
has nothing to do with religion

Personally, I think even pregnant women smoking should be illegal.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


I don't buy into the whole 'abortion is murder' bollocks. Up to a certain point the bloody thing is a zygote or an egg with no thought processes of it's own (I am waiting to hear from someone claiming they do have them - that will be a laugh a minute).

I can totally understand not aborting after a certain age, like when they form a brain and arms and legs, but until then the debate is ridiculous.

Personally I think that if a woman wants to abort a baby then she should be allowed that choice without being taunted, bullied or spoken to in any way that is derogatory just because her beliefs are different to yours or someone elses.

Oh and by the way, can anyone here remember being an Egg? Or a Zygote? Or a Foetus for that matter? Didn't think so.

Originally posted by Kryties
Oh and by the way, can anyone here remember being an Egg? Or a Zygote? Or a Foetus for that matter? Didn't think so.

Do you remember being 1 month old?
Do you remember being 1 year old?
Do you remember being 2 years old?

didn't think so

An unborn foetus is a parasite, it should have no more rights that the common cold or any other virus/disease/parasite. If we carry on like this, it will be against the law to cure any illness that might be considered "a life".

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by Kryties
Oh and by the way, can anyone here remember being an Egg? Or a Zygote? Or a Foetus for that matter? Didn't think so.

Do you remember being 1 month old?
Do you remember being 1 year old?
Do you remember being 2 years old?

didn't think so

Actually I have a memory of being in a basinette when I was about a year old. I distinctly remember crying because I did not know where my mother was (she was in the next room according to her). I have discussed this with my mother, detailing certain things I remember like the wallpaper colour and what the lampshade looked like and she agrees that it is a memory of that exact moment.

So to answer your question, yes I do remember some parts of those ages............but I most certainly do not remember being inside my mother.

Nice try

[edit on 28/9/2009 by Kryties]