Masons don't believe Jesus was Son of God., page 5

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reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 02:53 AM by oconnection

How did this discussion fall so low to insult a persons faith. Everyone has there own beliefs. Many atheists seem to hate religion because all the strife and conflict that is/was caused by it but based on your own behavior on this thread you are being hypocritical. You want to insight fighting and conflict which is the main beef many atheists have against the whole concept of God and the Bible.

I will not tell you to believe anything but I can point out the obvious. It seems this world needs a lot more understanding and tolerance. I personally do not see any conflict of interests being a Freemason and a Christian.

What is beautiful about Freemasonry is people of many faiths can have a common ground, set a side any religious strife and work towards the common good.

Tell me, what type of organization that you know of has accomplished this much? A student of history will tell you conflict and wars revolve around taking sides, having a certain religious belief. How is it then such a sinister organization can have men sit next to each other, work along side one another, work for the greater good, ect. if they were so horrible?

This whole Masons eat babies hysteria is getting rather depressing. It's sad to see individuals spend so much time and effort towards a cause that really has no substance.

Want to see the world change? Work on your self individually instead of pointing the finger blindly.

[edit on 28-9-2009 by oconnection]

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 04:11 AM by clarktkhoury

are you all serious ?
the masons arnt a relgion, there a brotherhood !
inorder to join, one mus beleive in a higher power (god)..
im not saying jesus id the son of god, just that masons DONT JUDGE OTHER RELIGIONS! THEY DONT CARE ! THERE A BROTHERHOOD snip !

Mod Note: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 28/9/2009 by Sauron]

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 06:59 AM by kingswillquiver

Originally posted by clarktkhoury
are you all serious ?
the masons arnt a relgion, there a brotherhood !
inorder to join, one mus beleive in a higher power (god)..
im not saying jesus id the son of god, just that masons DONT JUDGE OTHER RELIGIONS! THEY DONT CARE ! THERE A BROTHERHOOD snip!

So, if you believe Satan is god, the Masons say, come on in.

[Mod Edit - quote]

[edit on 28/9/2009 by Sauron]

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 07:31 AM by Gixxer

So, if you believe Satan is god, the Masons say, come on in.

typical bible thumping " if you disagree with my veiws your evil" bs,I find it funny how people say only their god is great and wonderful and we should all love him, and then it is crazy wacko's like this that in the name of "god" do horrible things to others and feel justified.

if there is a god then my guess is this moron is the devil.

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 07:35 AM by Masonic Light

Originally posted by oconnection
How did this discussion fall so low to insult a persons faith. Everyone has there own beliefs.

Religious anti-Masons tend to be Christian supremacists, and bigoted in regard to beliefs outside of their own box. They also tend to be extremely lax in honesty (for example, quoting the long debunked Jim Shaw).

It is pretty easy to see that some Mason bashers have absolutely no honor.

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 07:38 AM by Gixxer

reply to post by Masonic Light

And after about a 5 srcond search it's easy to tell kingswillquiver isn't just a mason basher, he absolutley hates these people, probally wanted to join but got turned down.

NEWS FLASH kingswillquiver i wouldnt let your crazy ass join a book club, let it go.

[Mod Edit - replaced quote with Reply To: tab]

[edit on 28/9/2009 by Sauron]

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 07:58 AM by JoshNorton

Originally posted by kingswillquiver
So, if you believe Satan is god, the Masons say, come on in.

We've gone over this a dozen times already. Show me one Satanist who believes Satan created the Universe. A Mason must believe in God The Creator. (You know, the whole reason we refer to him as the Grand Architect of the Universe, because he built the whole thing???) Nowhere in any teaching or reading I've come across has ANY religion been founded on the belief of Satan the Creator.

So someone knocking on Masonry's door believing Satan is God won't happen, because nobody believes that!

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 07:59 AM by Cuhail

I gotta say, the OP isn't doing anything to make his "brand" of Christianity enticing. To preach hate and intolerance is hardly a Christian value....or is it? Hmmmm. Nope. Not from this vantage point.

I just don't understand how he can call himself "Christian" when he displays no attributes Christ taught.

(If y'all didn't notice, I'm done communicating with this bigot, trolling Christian)

Ban Bigotry.
Cuhail

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 08:10 AM by moocowman

reply to post by kingswillquiver

The truth was, these people were making money using God as a means, instead of earning, using favoritism and deception.

Nothing has changed, it has just gotten worse as the Freemason main job is to protect the bankers and their interests.

You seem to fail to observe that xtianity is but a huge money making machine.

The main interests of the churches (particularly RC) is to protect their financial interests stolen or extorted from ignorant poor and exchanged for favor by the wealthy.

It would appear that historically masonry developed from the Templar knights who were said to be the protectors of xtianity.

What real difference does it make whether masons worship jesus , Baphomet, or Yoda the evidence of the reality of each is the same.

It's no good pointing an accusing finger at the jewish priests declaring "deception" when xtianity has done nothing but deieve since its' inception.

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 08:21 AM by moocowman

reply to post by oconnection

He was simply speaking about his own personal faith and not in any way speaking about Freemasonry as a whole. This is slander to the 10th degree.

Why don't you read a little, do a little home work before you say such completely ignorant remarks? I guess that's asking too much?

To be honest, over a period of time I have unfortunately obserevd that a huge swathe of the xtian population are illiterate when it comes to anything not connected to the new testament.

Although I'm not tarring all xtians with the same brush (there's some very well read ATS members that happen to be xtian) they do seem to have a tendency to borrow tin foil hats from UFO groups.

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 09:14 AM by articulus

reply to post by JoshNorton

Not to fly completely off-topic, but there are some faiths and viewpoints that arguably do claim such. Certain gnostic texts have put forth the notion of the world's creation by a flawed demiurge, subordinate to the true God; the same demiurge is referred to in Christianity and Islam as Satan and/or Lucifer.

Also, the Yazidis of Kurdistan, whose religion long predates Christianity, believe that the world was created by God but is governed by an angel named Tawuse Melek, who is sometimes given another moniker, Shaytan, which is the same name of the Devil in Islam, which thusly has led to much violence against this tiny faith over the centuries. wiki

Having said that, by no means do I give any credit to the OP for his blind-minded invective or his unwillingness to actually discuss anything. This thread is ludicrous on its face; it is encouraging, however, to see both Masons and non-Masons condemn ignorance.

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 09:41 AM by Splitta

Masonry was borne of the Templars being forced underground by Pope Clement V. The Templars, who were an order of MONKS, NOT KNIGHTS, were denied by the man who was the representative of the person the devoted their entire lives to, Jesus Christ. If you people had done some research into the origins of this order you so desperately seek to demonise then you would find some answers as to why they believe what they believe.

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 09:58 AM by JoshNorton

Originally posted by articulus
reply to post by JoshNorton

Not to fly completely off-topic, but there are some faiths and viewpoints that arguably do claim such. Certain gnostic texts have put forth the notion of the world's creation by a flawed demiurge, subordinate to the true God; the same demiurge is referred to in Christianity and Islam as Satan and/or Lucifer.

Interesting. I'll have to give that further investigation. But even then, by extension, one could argue that the higher God created the subordinate, right? There would still be "one above all others" as it were? (Not often you come across a system of separate beings with equal omnipotence...) I'd be careful on the whole "Satan and/or Lucifer" bit, though. A learned scholar such as yourself would recognize the translation errors that suppose any equivalency.

[edit on 9/28/2009 by JoshNorton]

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 10:02 AM by Masonic Light

Originally posted by articulus

Not to fly completely off-topic, but there are some faiths and viewpoints that arguably do claim such. Certain gnostic texts have put forth the notion of the world's creation by a flawed demiurge, subordinate to the true God; the same demiurge is referred to in Christianity and Islam as Satan and/or Lucifer.

Actually, the demiurge of Gnosticism is equivalent to Jehovah in Christianity, and Allah in Islam. Gnostics point out that the god of the Old Testament and Qu'ran is rather tyrannical, materialistic, and childish, and therefore consider him "evil". Therefore, Gnostics consider "orthodox" Christians to be demiurge-worshipers.

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 10:04 AM by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Splitta
Masonry was borne of the Templars being forced underground by Pope Clement V.

Masonry predates both the Knights Templar and Pope Clement V (see, for example, the Regius Manuscript, which describes a Masonic gathering at York, England two centuries before the Templars were founded).

The Templars, who were an order of MONKS, NOT KNIGHTS

Actually, they were both.

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 10:39 AM by Psychonaughty

reply to post by kingswillquiver

Who cares if one does not believe Jesus of Nazerath to be the "Crist" (Originally spelt), he wasn't anyways.

If he wasn't the Crist, then every christian who idolises him to be the Crist, is the anti-christ.

The irony?

[edit on 28-9-2009 by Psychonaughty]

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 12:04 PM by Thiaoouba Prophecy

His Body is still on the planet Thiaoouba and thus our Earthling Human DNA is Closest to the Father. Jesus sacrificed himself so that we may have access to the Father. You would have to read the book and research yourself to know the Turth about how much Truth is in the Bible.

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 12:41 PM by articulus

/delete double post

[edit on 9/28/09 by articulus]

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 12:43 PM by articulus

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by articulus
reply to post by JoshNorton

Not to fly completely off-topic, but there are some faiths and viewpoints that arguably do claim such. Certain gnostic texts have put forth the notion of the world's creation by a flawed demiurge, subordinate to the true God; the same demiurge is referred to in Christianity and Islam as Satan and/or Lucifer.
Interesting. I'll have to give that further investigation. But even then, by extension, one could argue that the higher God created the subordinate, right? There would still be "one above all others" as it were? (Not often you come across a system of separate beings with equal omnipotence...) I'd be careful on the whole "Satan and/or Lucifer" bit, though. A learned scholar such as yourself would recognize the translation errors that suppose any equivalency.

[edit on 9/28/2009 by JoshNorton]

Regarding the latter, you're certainly correct on the Satan-Lucifer problem, and I should have been more cautious with my phrasing. MasonicLight explained the Gnostic example better than I did, in any case, and I will gladly defer to him on that subject. The larger point remains, and is perhaps better illustrated by the Yazidi example: the problem with perception. The same deity, by two different philosophies, can be viewed by one as good and by another as evil.

To your first point, if the Creator creates a flawed being, which in turn creates our flawed universe, whom do we worship, and who is ultimately supreme? I can conceive of a "Creator" that is not the same as the "Architect." That's not necessarily what I believe, but I think it's an interesting line of thought. I suppose I'm only trying to say that just because Satanists do not have any theology regarding Satan as Creator does not exclude the possibility that someone could.

And so (to bring it a little closer to the topic vis a vis Freemasonry), if one did believe such, and wanted to become a Freemason, he could surely do so with a clean conscience and not ever be spoken to about it by his brethren following his initiation. Is that correct?

reply posted on 28-9-2009 @ 12:53 PM by emsed1

reply to post by articulus

We only require a belief in a Supreme Being. The nature of the belief is left to the individual man.

However, belief in an evil supreme being would mean the candidate would not find very much satisfaction in Masonry since it is concerned with morality and conduct.