Masons don't believe Jesus was Son of God.

reply to post by kingswillquiver


Well, that's fine, for the record I don't find Christianity detestable, I find some of it's practitioners so - but that's different. I actually think Christianity has some sound basis as a system for living and a lot of the rules of Christianity seem based in Kindness - which is a good thing. I just have "issues" in believing in what I perceive to be a mythical being... however that's not the point, I just wanted you to be clear on my position and I'd also like to assure you the only offense that you have caused is in your avoidance of sound rational debate - youu can detest me, it's fine, it's the internet, I doubt we'd ever meet in person.

So, you have carte blanche to say what you like and I won't be offended, unless it's by you avoiding reasonable, calm debate.

If you would be kind enough to address these points I have made:


I've read up on Free masonry and regardless of the "Belief in a supreme being" it seems you can still be a christian/buddhist/whatever... now that sounds like a fairly tolerant organisation, so the OP doesn't ring true. Also, so what if some people deny jesus was the son of god? It's their belief, not yours and to post reactionary (troll) threads doesn't seem at all tolerant or compassionate, more like a cheap attempt to garner S&Fs and hammer home an ill-thought out argument... these tend to be the worst sort of threads on here, usually constituting of a knee-jerk, single-paragraphed rant - you can then compare that to other threads where people have obviously researched and put thought into constructing their arguments, these seem to run for at least a few paragraphs and have links to references, as opposed to anecdotal "he said/she said" quotes...

As for the title of this post, it just begs the question "So what?" and also gives the thread a somewhat sensationalist/tabloid bent. As for the "Gang-posting" statement, that really is a weak and flawed argument, that seems to have been invited by the headline - what do you expect when ATS is known to have Masonic members???

AND!!! I restate it here I am not a Mason, but it seems from posts I've read, that they're able to make coherent arguments and back them up with decent research, yet using the bible as evidence is a little shaky considering the contention about who wrote it, when and the various interpretations of it over the numerous years.

Also, how do you respond to my statement that you are Trolling this thread and your comment about my avatar and accordingly your implication of a religious belief due to it were frankly juvenille and baiting.

Originally posted by kingswillquiver


I find atheism detestable.

You can't just tolerate us?

I try to tolerate the religious even though sometimes I let myself down.

Do you feel threatened by our superior intellects?

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Sorry, that was a bad on my part and it was an ironic statement on my part as the headline didn't actually contain any proof or validity.

Is there a link to the belief in a supreme being/entry criteria for masons - just so the OP can see it in writing?

Please Masons don't take this as sarcasm, but when you say "supreme being" - does that have to be a deity? Could I pick Chuck Norris for (a somewhat crass) example? Just trying to lighten the mood a little...

Originally posted by kingswillquiver

Originally posted by jokei

Originally posted by kingswillquiver

I have avoided responding to you because I didn't want to offend you,
but if you insist.

I find atheism detestable.

Wait people don't get offended over this statement just yet! at least until OP answers this question:

Although I am fine with you hating the idea of atheism, do you specifically hate atheism, or do you hate atheists?

Originally posted by aorAki

Originally posted by kingswillquiver


I find atheism detestable.

You can't just tolerate us?

I try to tolerate the religious even though sometimes I let myself down.

Do you feel threatened by our superior intellects?

Sort of like how the Freemasons tolerate you by not allowing you to join??

Originally posted by jokei
Sorry, that was a bad on my part and it was an ironic statement on my part as the headline didn't actually contain any proof or validity.

No worries, I just wanted to make sure eveyone knew it was only me that said that and I do not speak for all Masons.

Is there a link to the belief in a supreme being/entry criteria for masons - just so the OP can see it in writing?

Certainly, Masonicinfo.com has the ones I listed. I forgot about being of age, you need to be, depending on the jurisdiction, 18, 19 or 21. Plus there is the ability to support ones family, however, we have raised men in our lodge who will forever be on permanent disability (wounded in combat), so this is not a hard and fast rule.

Please Masons don't take this as sarcasm, but when you say "supreme being" - does that have to be a deity? Could I pick Chuck Norris for (a somewhat crass) example? Just trying to lighten the mood a little...

Wait, are you saying Chuck Norris is not God???

All kidding aside, no one will ever ask you what you call God. Ever. If you honestly felt God's name was Chuck Norris it would be between you and the Chuckmiester......that is until he roundhoused you into oblivion.

Originally posted by kingswillquiver

Originally posted by aorAki

Originally posted by kingswillquiver


I find atheism detestable.

You can't just tolerate us?

I try to tolerate the religious even though sometimes I let myself down.

Do you feel threatened by our superior intellects?

Sort of like how the Freemasons tolerate you by not allowing you to join??

Hmmm, really?

I don't detest Freemasons, but I have no wish to join.

You're allowed to join the ranks of Atheism, just as I am free to join the ranks of the religious (rather than be forced to as I was as a kid), but I fail to see the point of your argument here.

Originally posted by kingswillquiver

Sort of like how the Freemasons tolerate you by not allowing you to join??

Now you speak for Masons?

I for one do not look down on anyone who is an Atheist. A persons path in life is not for me to judge unless it causes harm to myself or others.

Maybe you should implement some of the teachings of the book you so casually toss references about, such as the one about not judging others.




[edit on 27-9-2009 by AugustusMasonicus]

reply to post by kingswillquiver


My grandfather was a mason, and what you say is nonsense.
Of course i can only speak in defence of my own family against this cruel
libel.

The original post is nonsensical.

The author has taken the words of one (non-Christian) Mason discussing his beliefs (or non-beliefs) and extrapolated that to mean that ALL Masons are non-Christian and, furthermore, that Masonry is therefore anti-Christian!

What an absurd presumption. Any idiot can see how this doesn't work.

If I approach an amateur golfer and he tells me that he likes collecting CareBears, do I then assume that ALL amateur golfers collect CareBears and that, furthermore, all amateur golfers are AGAINST collecting items that are NOT related to CareBears?

My head is spinning at the idiocy of all this.

reply to post by kingswillquiver


So your basing your whole statement with something a Mason said on the board? Firstly Freemasonry accepts anyone who believes in a higher power. So you have a mixed bag of Deists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and of course Christians.

He was simply speaking about his own personal faith and not in any way speaking about Freemasonry as a whole. This is slander to the 10th degree.

Why don't you read a little, do a little home work before you say such completely ignorant remarks? I guess that's asking too much?

[edit on 27-9-2009 by oconnection]

reply to post by kingswillquiver


I believe you are simply determined to hate Freemasonry, even though you know next to nothing about it.. I say Freemasonry, and not Masons, because you fail to see us as individuals, which we are.. you are under the notion that to be a Mason we must all be bound by a likeminded belief, which we are not.

We demand only you believe in God, every single Mason has said, before his Lodge, "I believe in God" ... no one ever asks what God, what you call it, or to what belief you subscribe. In fact to speak of religion as religion in open lodge is an expellable offense.

I think you know this though, and you appear hellbent to have this need to publicly call us out on every detail, to strive and misconstrue everything to meet your twisted, backwards way of thinking.

I think you could do with a lot less hate in your life. Might I suggest first, to read the book you insist we violate? And when you read it, don't read with the mind that you will force anyone to conform to these teachings, or how no one follows.. but read with a mind of how you can actually examplify that which you read..

I am going to risk it.

I wonder if you will indulge me for a moment.

For the record, I am not a member of the trade. Nor do I ask to be.

Consider for just a moment this scenario;

I wish to enlist among my acquaintanceship, only good people, only people who I find are at least aware of the world around them, and do not hinder any honest inquiry into the world. I seek no sympathy, nor do I encourage conflict. On the other hand, I need to develop an atmosphere conducive to that end. Assuming you can sympathize with that sentiment, suspend your disbelief for a moment longer.

What kind of commitment would you personally be willing to undertake to find that kind of environment? Would you be willing to forgo expressing your observations regarding anothers' sexual preference? Their choice of religion? Their political party? It is likely, if you are of a mind to hunger for a social environment that isn't insulting to your intellect, you might say "yes."

Would you?

The problem would inevitably arise (as I am certain it must now) that from time to time someone would join for the wrong reason, and/or simply misrepresent themselves for the opportunity's sake.

It seems logical to make certain that anyone who intends to become a member of this group should give their word that such is not the case. But if you're serious about the nature of the group, it would have to be a promise which the group is satisfied actually 'means something' and is believably honest. Perhaps a demonstration regarding something the would-be 'member' holds of special importance?

I think this is the ritual's ultimate purpose. To prove that something matters enough to you, that you would stake your honor upon it.

But fundamentalist bias cannot accommodate such a commitment; as if by definition, anything other then dogma in one's life is a bad thing.

Matters of faith are irresolvable. It is that simple.

Isn't it way overdue that this moronic debate was put aside for the sake of monotheism in general.

"son" is a very subjective term,

God obviously is not a physical being so what does "son" actually even mean or refer to, it's a question if your a believer that can not be answered until the return, perhaps if those words were even said in exactly that manner or if Jesus himself was actually set up.

Christ himself died over the statement

And until the time comes when he answers the question himself in our language in a way we can understand I don't see this fight being any good in terms of anything other division of people who claim to believe in a God.

Jesus died on these words, Judaism and Christianity were split over the actions of a scant few men a few rabbis and roman law, not people at large who followed Christ... he died over a technicality.

Jews actually still worshiped Christ as a saint until the Spanish inquisition when again the term "son" reared it's ugly head and Jews died and Christ was pushed from the religion furthering forever to this day the divide and weakening the faith more.

And can anyone say what "son" actually meant? Or IF the words were actually were even said and Christ simply wasn't set up for a fall?

It feels to me if there is any truth this sentence has worked far more in the favor of Lucifer than God or Man, so day we should argue if Masons believe he was deity or man? Any of us knows if he really bore children we were there? Or should you walk in the footsteps of a man without this debate?

Is it our place to decide Jesus Christs role in divine cosmology and debate it as if we have a say anyway?

Or if you believe the words of the man and follow the deeds he did in life is it not good enough to simple accept his teachings at face value as other do Buddha without concern for exactly what place he occupies in celestial matters? Is it not good enough to simply practice the kindness of his words and deeds and not fight over what in the end is not your domain in this world?

I think this very debate has killed Millions and will kill Millions more and I do not believe any one has any place being concerned beyond walking the walk not talking the talk if that's the kind of division it brings, surely if there is any miraculous truth to the story of Christ than this division between men is the work of evil forces and should be treated with disdain by those who believe in God.

I don't believe bashing people for their own beliefs is appropriate on ATS or anywhere.

It sounds like you just like to goad people ...

Your response to Jokei was immature and inappropriate. Name calling... But honestly, I didn't expect much more from you after reading all your responses to everyone.

Just the fact you applied your original conversation with one man, to an entire organization speaks volumes as to your motives.

You are looking for attention.... Well, everyone gets 15 mins of fame I guess...

reply to post by kingswillquiver


I do agree that agree that Masonic beliefs are Lucerferian in nature, thus anti-christ, but honestly, to take an ATS members statement, an opinion at that, and make a whole thread claiming it to be fact among all masons, is actually pretty ignorant. now i do not endorse the masons or the like and am very pro-Christ, however i know the first few degrees of masonry actually teach from the bible, but after that it gets into books like morals and dogma and the like which show masons true nature. but hey in this country its freedom of religion, people who know the truth, speak the truth, and those who deny the truth, usually hide behind lies.... not saying everyone who denys truth is a liar because some are just ignorant, but you get the idea

Sorry I was late to the discussion. I just got in from the lodge. We had a lovely virgin sacrifice (it was family night after all). Babies blood punch and deep fried sausage (made from baby entrails of course) with a little bread made from the bones of dug up nuns. MMMMMMMM GOOD!!!!

We ended it with a rousing rendition of a Masonic favorite " He may be an old devil but my rotten soul is his" and lots of "HAIL SATAN" cheers!

i

Dude, is that what you want to hear?
Personally, your a little TROLL looking for trouble...but I'll play along.

Yes. I'm a Mason. When i get the money up I'll be taking my Scottish Rite degrees and be given my Grandfathers ring. I've been reading Bro. Albert Pike's 'Morals and Dogma" to gain more insight. Boy, I'm getting it!

Any brother that hasn't sat down with this tome is missing out.

That being said, putting everything to the Bible as fact is a weak argument (no disrespect to my more fundamentalist brethren). This book DOES have valid info. There is too much "man" involved due to the church manipulation of information (see the various "councils" ie. Nicea and the like). Many books were removed as they may induce considerate thought of "what is truth"? Jesus him self admonished all that "those who have ears to hear and eyes to see will find the truth". His words are ALL written with meaning to a layman and to the initiate. Vast knowledge in simplicity. I could give a rats posterior about the S.O.B.'s Paul and Peter and their thoughts. The majority of the "standard accepted" new testament is worth little more than fish wrap. The old testament is more of a historical text with some ancient knowledge interspersed. The Jews just took better care of the older parts than the Christians with theirs.

The garbage about "the world is only about 6 or 7 thousand years old" crap? Thats stupid on its face.

Do I believe JC was the "son of God"? Yeah, were all from the same source. Do I believe he was something more than human? He was a very advanced spirit that came to "take care of some things". I also believe that he was spirit made manifest as a human and had human weakness and passions.

No, I have NO problem with the concept of if he fathered children. On a grand scale that might be of use, but not much.

"Oh, gee. I'm JC's 40th grand child". Thats nice. Please pass the gravy now...thank you. The potatoes are very nice aunt Mary. Grampa Joseph, tell us about the time....." Get the point?

Take your head out of your little book, do some REAL meditation, and you will hopefully see some sort of gnosis in your life. Your religious leaders aren't gonna get you there. You may have many people walking the path with you but your both on two separate paths. Until you break your chains of imposed delusion, YOU are walking in illusion.



edited for spellig

[edit on 28-9-2009 by felonius]

Whatever the beliefs of the Freemasons, they are not the "ultimate anti-Christ religion". They simply don't agree with your interpretation of a book you have decided is the only source of God's "Word". Not everyone believes that the Bible is the only source of God's Word; in fact, many don't believe the Bible to contain God's words at all, but only Man's.

Most people don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God. In fact, only Christians believe it, and even among Christians many are uncertain. The Christian dogma claims that Jesus is the only *begotten* son of God, meaning God caused a woman to conceive and bear Jesus - who, somehow, turned out to be God Himself. Unlike other religions that teach that people are children of God, Christianity claims that Jesus is the ONLY begotten son of God.

The Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Atheists don't believe that Jesus was the son of God. Are they *all* "anti-Christ religions"? I think not. They simply don't believe what you believe. That's OK. You could just as easily be wrong as any of the others. Maybe it's the Koran, and not the Bible, that is the true word of God. Maybe it's Bhagavad-Gita, or Dhammapada, or just the Old Testament, or Tao Te Ching, or even Origin of Species. As much as you are certain that the Bible is the Word of God, so are others certain that it's the Koran or the other books (Origin of Species excepted, though).

Many are certain; not all can be right. You might be one of the people who got it wrong.

Anyway, the Book of Revelation speaks of an anti-Christ, and is very specific about it (even though it's also kind of self-contradictory). The Freemasons don't match that description - not in any reasonable way, at least. If you loosen up the meaning of Revelation enough, sure, you could include Freemasons, but if you do that you wind up including everyone else, including Christian sects who don't happen to agree with your particular version of the truth.

Freemasonry is not the religion of the anti-Christ. It's not even close.

Frankly I doubt if you have the slightest clue about Jesus, who he was, if he was, what his spiritual status was. It's all fantasy, wishful thinking, pretending to think you have a personal relationship with JC or even if you are a real christian or just pretending and belonging and following along. Your welcome to pretend till the cows come home but it's just your imagination and some feel good conditioning that helps you fabricate an identity around Jesus, whoever or whatever, if ever that might have been thousands of years ago. That past has no more to do with you than JC would have to do with this world now if he ever existed. To cling to make believe is just foolish but feel free to do it if you like.

Having read a few of the Masonic rituals it looks like that they wouldn't make much sense and there wouldn't be that much to get out of them without believing in some sort of god. So you could say that the Masons don't DISALLOW athiests but rather that without some form of theism (and I use that term pretty much loosely) the rituals and teachings are of little benefit.