The dead end kids.

reply to post by Mr.Hyde


reconsider what?

reply to post by kosmicjack

Could you please explain it better, with a non-US public in mind?

Thanks in advance.

Man is different from other animals in that he has intentionality and will. He can make choices due to his self-awareness. The arc of human developement has been towards greater and greater freedom.

Mankind's innate and special self-awareness and ability to make choices is manifed through his activities. Consider two men. The first man needs a shoe, and makes one himself. Problem solved. Now consider the second man. He works on a highly-specialized sub-portion of a shoe-making assemblyline in a shoe factory. For his effort he is given money, originally concocted out of thin air by central bankers who do nothing but sit around and, well, create money. With his money, the factory worker can then go out and buy a pair of shoes.

The first person is more in touch with himself as a member of the unique species because he is exercising his will and freedom at every stage. The second man works harder and must go through a much more roundabout process to get his shoe, with much less freedom at any given stage (He has to come into work at a certain time, he has to agree on a certain salary and a certain price for the shoe, he has to take transport to the shoe office which is only open at a certain time and is located in a certain place, and so on. Because of this lack of control, he is alienated from his own essential humanity -- manifested in freedom and will -- in a way the first man is not.

A star on the forehead for anyone who can guess who's early philosophy I just summarized above...



[edit on 9/27/09 by silent thunder]

reply to post by Mr.Hyde


This is the most relevant argument on the subject. But to address the problems further you need to account for this:

We are over populated. There are limited resources in this world and the population is growing exponentially. This has nothing to do with business models at the end of the day other than the direction we are in is one slated for collapse. The joblessness today, It has to do with our limited resources and too much consumption.

Resources are going to run out and our current consumption will not support the population. We need to have renewable everything, energy, food, building materials, etc. for our species to survive at the current population.

What jobs you give the people after that is irrelevant. The majority of jobs nowadays are useless anyways. Tell me why there are thousands of people working in office buildings... and what exactly do they contribute to society? Nothing. They are useless. Most of the people that read this are most like useless. If you send memos all day, do charts, graphs, and other menial tasks, you are as useless as a guard dog with no vocal chords.

Our banking systems and other bureaucracies waste time and paper. And you are right that some of it can be attributed to the elite, how they run business and how the corporate world has evolved. But the root of the problem is resources. If we had unlimited resources this idea of growth for recovery could actually help us. But, as of now we are nailing our coffins shut.


Just look at the ignorant comments the Canadian Prime Minister made at the g20.

A year ago, stock markets were falling at a precipitous rate and financial institutions were collapsing in ways not seen since the 1930s, "now we are seeing signs of growth," Harper said.

Link

Growth? We don't need growth, we need conservation and solutions to the global resource shortage (I don't think that's been coined yet, but mark my words)

This is one of the scariest times in history because politicians are flat out ignoring the problems that lay ahead of us and dancing around the issues looking for non-existent problems to blame.

Just remember, the jobs you are looking for are probably not even needed in the first place. So as are consumption continues to increase and supply lines shorten. don't expect any more job 'growth'.

reply to post by ArMaP


Happily. Which part?

I have always been somewhat mystified by some employer's hiring practices. I have had to compete for those 'menial' jobs against kids fresh out of high school who can barely read. It's almost insulting. I'm not saying that there aren't some well-educated, hard-working young people out there, but those types of people are usually not the kind that I find myself up against in the workplace. I realized two things when I was in my early 20's. Firstly, that you pretty much have to know someone in the company to get your foot in the door in alot of places, and secondly, that the so-called American dream is crap. Your born, you go to school for 12 or so years of the first 18 or so years of your life. Then perhaps you go off for more school for the next 4-6 years, only to get a job and work your butt off for someone else for the next 25-30 years. Just to retire, and die of boredom. Maybe you have a family, maybe you buy a house, maybe you don't loose everything that you worked 30 years for when your bank goes under, etc. I mean, what is the POINT? There has to be more to life than that. That was the major reason I didn't want to do anything with myself for a long time.

I have recently decided to go back to school to become a lemming (wage slave, call it what you will), because I can no longer stand having to work with/against silly people in menial jobs that I hate. So I am trying to get a degree and hopefully get a decent job that I don't entirely loath, why, I am not even sure. Probably because you have to do something. My father said to me once that you either continue to grow as a person, or you stagnate and you die. The thing is, after being back in school for a while now, I realize that the same silly people I used to work with in minimum wage jobs, are the same people I am going to school with, and will most likely be working with in the future. The more things change, and all that.

All I can say is, people in their mid-20's aren't the only ones having problems, nor are they the only 'lazy' people out there. I have met more than my fair share of people in their 30's and 40's who are just as bad as these younger folks today. It is societal, not age-based. Baseline is, America is messed up, and there doesn't seem to be much getting better any time soon.

Chrono

My Grandmother finally retired from the Post office at the age of 78, last spring. She has regretted it ever since. She can't make it financially and efforts to find a new job at her age has been depressing.
I am a few years older that then said age range with a under graduate degree. I lost my last job at a hospital after it closed due to lack of funding. MY town has always been known for Job shortage. The PTB here localy fight to keep industrial and factory jobs from coming here and our mills have all been shut down. Dentistry has been run out of town due to lack of business, and the amount of people applying for burger flipping jobs is outrageous.
No it is not the Youths fault at all.

reply to post by SpaceMonkeys


That's the entire point of completing Higher Education. To make a better wage. So, perhaps you should reconsider.


Completing Higher Education. In your adamant claim, that you refuse to be a slave to the dollar, you are in tandem with being a slave to the dollar according to the actions your taking.

Your just went into a huge amount of debt = slave to the dollar. Will buy a home once you graduate = slave to the dollar. This example is endless. You can't escape the current system. All you can do is make the best of it. I work with many people that have a wide arrange of degrees and not one of them can find a job in-line with the degrees they have. Hate the dollar all you want... but like everyone else, we all wish we had more of them.

reply to post by kosmicjack


The part about "their 401ks being decimated".

Thanks.

reply to post by silent thunder


I don't know who's famous for it, but I have had that same philosophy my whole life. I always looked at it like this;

You need food, clothing, shelter and health care to survive.

If a woman can sew 100 shirts a week. She could have enough clothing for a year in only a few days.
If a farmer can grow thousands of pounds of potatoes in only a few months he can feed his family and have huge surpluses still after wards.
If a family could together build a new house in a few months, they would have one for themselves and be able to build a couple more every year.


Now, how is our distribution of wealth? It's crap. And what people earn is crap.
A builder should be making at least a million a year based on what extra he can provide every year. I know people in renovations and building that can't afford to buy a house. But they can build one no problem.
The woman that sews, at the price of clothing today she could easily be making half a million.
That farmer, he could be rich too.

Now lets say we have a small community, 100 people, all the people in these fields have plenty of surplus, they pay the doctors, the entertainers, anyone else who is in a non-producing field.

These people should be rich. Not only these people but the entire community should be rich. But in our society, we have been overproducing, we created millions of useless jobs that forced producers to produce more and now we are going to hit the top where we can't sustain ourselves.

There is no reason for the people to be as poor as we our now. There has been some really irresponsible planning and irresponsible consumption.

There is a golden opportunity even during down times. Take for instance Detroit. There are so many abandoned homes and run down homes that no one lives in these areas anymore. What is left is a lot of potential building material from bricks to wood. I'm guessing there is so much red tape that no one could go in there to salvage those building materials. All that's needed is a flat bed truck, tools, and people willing to work.

reply to post by Mr.Hyde

Ive got my degree but Im looking for a job and also cant find one. But the person I was replying to seemed to think that we all should look for any slave labor job. But my argument was that Ive worked my ass off and got into a lot of debt so I can escape that and do the work Im interested in. But by not being able to find a job I have found myself temporarily unemployed but I refuse to go back to slave labor.


[edit on 27-9-2009 by SpaceMonkeys]

Older people just don't understand that the world doesn't work at all like it used to, when they were our age. Back then, being an American with a hard work ethic was enough. Businesses were more local and there was a better chance that you wouldn't be working for some giant soul-less corporate chain. You probably knew your boss personally and took pride in doing a good job and providing a good service to your community.

It used to be that you went out and applied at a business with a "Help Wanted" sign. Now that same sign is just a deception as you go in and find out that you need to go home, fill out the application online, take a psych test that lasts about 45 minutes and then you will be assigned to a store that corporate decides on, all this to work at a local CVS/Duane Reade/Wal Mart/Target/Borders/etc etc

It used to be that you could make enough money to live on, save and buy a house. These days it's almost impossible that anyone out of college, even for a few years, is making enough money to be living completely on their own. In fact, with student loan bills, commuting expenses and the general cost of living, I'd be surprised if many young people even have anything to save.

You can say that young people are lazy and arrogant but would you want to work over 40 hours a week at McDonald's, never receiving over time pay or promised benefits and still be classified as "Part Time" by the company?

Many young people have no problem working hard at a job they can be proud of but where do you find a job like that anymore? It's hard to be proud of the work you did at Wal-Mart when your paycheck is so small, the work conditions are mind numbing and, more often than not, the customers induce violent thoughts in one's mind.

Honestly, and you can flame me for this if you want, but I don't think it's worth selling your life away to a greedy corporation for $7.25 an hour, with no benefits, so that your meager paycheck can be further raped by taxes while whats left of it will hardly last you until the next paycheck.

I'd rather be unemployed, not pay taxes and have every hour of my life to myself.

[edit on 27-9-2009 by Shadowflux]

reply to post by ArMaP


Well, I can only speak from my own experience. My 401k lost a significant portion of it's value (20% roughly) compared to what I put in and my employer stopped matching my funds. Same for my husband.

Some employers also put limits on the amount you could borrow against and/or required you to wait for a certain amount of time between your request for loan on the funds and when it was actually paid out.

My grandparents literally lost 50% of their net worth because they trusted their adviser, despite our pleas, who did not restructure their investments.

Many people of retirement age are postponing it until the economic crisis subsides, rather than restructure and start drawing down in uncertain times.

I personally have three retirement age ladies who work with me.

[edit on 27/9/2009 by kosmicjack]

reply to post by Shadowflux


This is well said, the current system rewards people for staying in their menial jobs and living off nothing. The people at the top reap the rewards and the prosperity that was once available has disappeared.

reply to post by Shadowflux


Very well said, I couldnt agree more.

Sad, sobering sign of the times.

The youth are our future, this nation's future, our hope is with them.

If there is no hope for them then perhaps we are doomed.

[edit on 27-9-2009 by Walkswithfish]

reply to post by Chronogoblin


I agree with your post. What's the point. We have no driving force other than being a consumer. It's our civic duty. After 911 President Bush's focus was on telling people to go out and spend money. Why, because as the money is spent the wheels of business continue to turn. It's our only true civic duty. Spend money and pay taxes. What is the true value of being a citizen to the American power structure?

There is no undiscovered Country, there is no driving force to do anything other than consume. Work hard, get good grades, buy a nice car/house and have children. All to one day leave it your children so the cycle can continue. The common denominator here is the programmed social paradigm we all have. Question this and you will be viewed as a weird-o or crazy, perhaps anti-social or unhealthy. Why, because its a programmed reality we share as Americans.

Can anyone define what it means to live the American Life. I love my Country, I want to make that very clear. I am not bashing America here. Is our Government to blame, does the blame rest in the hands of our employer? Could it be that we as a species have lived to and reached the end-point to our capacity? Or so far as we have been permited by TPTB.

We as citizens wake up to jobs that are hated and unappreciated. Yet we seem careless and crass to those that would love to have the very jobs that are hated and unappreciated. We as citizens occupy our minds with trivial things such as Football and Video Games rather than important issues or matters that face our communities. Why is this? I believe it's because we are educated through prepackaged intelligence, lesson plans and school programs that instill obedience and acceptance of the pecking order. We can't easily step outside this paradigm. Those of us living within the American Society wonder what's it all for? We all want the same things, to live peacefully. Yet we turn on the 24 hour news cycle and see that our Country is at war in multiple locations. We don't seem to care, as the masses are not personally involved,"The enemy isn't coming down my street" mentality. Those that we are at war with want the same, to live their lives peacefully. So there's a lack of interest and actions to such things. Why do people feel this way? Why do people feel they are too small to make a difference? Why do people continue to accept menial lives?

There is no choice as this is the system and times we live in today.

[edit on 27-9-2009 by Mr.Hyde]

reply to post by ArMaP


Yes, they definitely teach Roman history, and the colonization of the Americas. They teach these things year after year, but nothing else. Before and after Rome, they do not teach us anything about Italy, some goes with colonization of the Americas, and the Iberian peninsula.

The saddest part of all this is that, I believe, many young people feel the same as myself:

We WANT a good job we can work hard at. We WANT a job we can be proud of. We WANT to work hard and we WANT to be productive members of society. We WANT to feel like we're actually getting somewhere and making something of ourselves.

We don't want to work for minimum wage for five years only to be fired when the company "experiences a downturn" and find that we're only "qualified" to work the same type of crap job we just lost.