Origin of Species - A new look

Originally posted by LASTofTheV8s

Originally posted by solomons path

Originally posted by LASTofTheV8s

Originally posted by solomons path

Thank you for proving my point!!

Aggression and malice? I'd simply be promoting my views the same as Kirk and the Fundie bunch. Do you lable their methods as aggressive and malicious? Where did I threaten anyone or promote the end of their religion? Am I not afforded the same "equal time" when I want my views expressed? Should their religious views carry more weight than anyone elses?

Once again thank you for proving my point and I welcome your internet tough guy "foot in my a" anytime!!

Peace angry guy . . .

Sorry. I'm not going to play "internet attorney" with you, and attempt to dissect and label and reprove again and again. I see what you were trying to do, I addressed it, and I am moving on. Period.
And, no, I don't think there is anything wrong with their approach to gaining new believer to the Christian faith. It's subtle and it's harmless.
And, no, I do not believe any opinion that is based in an attempt to Destroy, should be handled lightly and given fuel. That is just another example of a loophole being taken advantage of.
And, I would be saying the same thing if we were here discussing Christians attempting to destroy or demean the beliefs of others.
The term that should be "key" in any discussion like this, should be "enlighten".
Any type of civilized change, based in an attempt to change the beliefs of a people, should be based on a form of enlightenment, with respect to the people being reached.
But, unfortunately, Christians are the target of ridicule, hate and merciless attacks against their faith with no thought for the individuals that hold it so close to their hearts.

Whether you want to "discuss" it or not . . . you've proved my point. Christians can add whatever discrediting comment to secular views and it's promoting their "hearfelt" religion; however, if anyone does the same top their literature to express their secular views . . . it's mean spirited and once again the poor christians are being persecuted. Evangelicals can lobby for legislation to promote their views, but if someone does that same thing to promote secular views . . . it's a war against their faith.

Classic victims and it's work "miracles" for the last 2000 years . . .

There is no discussing it with PEOPLE LIKE YOU, because you have already afforded yourselves the luxury of labeling Christianity as "The Villain".
Once that has happened, PEOPLE LIKE YOU no longer respond to anything remotely resembling an exchange of ideas, or the possibility that you are dealing with "people", as opposed to a large, evil organization.
Because, without "The Villain", and the ability to hate it, you have nothing, and your view turns into one of malice and intolerance.

You are ignorant of the presence of "regular people" whom call themselves Christians, because it is more convenient to ignore them. Otherwise, you would have to admit that you are, in fact, attacking them. And, the vast majority of Christianity is made up of these very people. And, the vast majority of them are harming nobody, and just barely making it through their day, like people all over the world. Except, in this case, it is their adherence to Christianity that has helped them survive.
And, not only do you want to ridicule what they believe has saved them, but you, in turn, have also targeted them, as "Christians", to be a part of some sort of huge, evil power-base that most of them could not even conceive of.

Make no mistake here... You have taken on the very substance of that which you despise about the dark side of Christianity.

Good Luck with all that.

The more you let your anger and malice show, I'm assuming due to being offended, the more you prove my point. I simply pointed out the irony of what the fundies are doing, in the guise of "equal time", by reversing the situation. For someone that "doesn't even know if I believe in god", you sure seem offended. Just imagine how someone who believes in the god of the bible would respond!! Sheesh! I mean "equal" should work both ways, right? Why should the christian view be held above any other? Why should someone who doesn't believe has they do be forced to acquiesce to these poor persecuted christians. Once again, thanks for proving my point angry V8!! I'm giving you stars just for showing the ATS community exactly why Phage posted this story.

As for your many assumptions about me . . . well, you know what they say? Ignorant of the "regular people"? Evil power base? I'm talking about this incident. Kirk and Comfort are mouthpieces for the evangelical movement in the US . . . if the "regular people" are put down by the movement they belong to, then they shouldn't belong to them. I have many christian friends and family members, who all know how I feel about their faith; yet, this doesn't seem to offend them at all. Maybe they are strong in their faith and don't have to play the victim or become an internet tough guy to feel better about their firmly held beliefs. However even they know, most evangelical christians will not act as they. For you to overlook the obvious "nail on the head" irony of the hypothetical situation, which I orginally posted, and choose to focus your malice, based on assumptions of my personal ethos and life mission . . . speaks volumes about a tough, angry person (who doesn't even know if he believes in god).

Please keep patrolling the internet for the malicious hate crimes against that great persecuted minority, christians, and the common man in general.

I hope your holidays have been happier than your postings . . .
Peace brother!

[edit on 12/26/09 by solomons path]

reply to post by solomons path
It's so funny.

I can tell you are an expert at this.
Disgusting.
It is people like you, (yup, I said it again), that are responsible for the hate of a relatively spiritual and peaceful group of people.
You continue to try and focus the hate and fear of non-Christians against the simple, needy people that have found help in Christianity, and I will continue to point out how dark and empty your viewpoints are.
Every era, and every argument has people like you, to keep people hating and fearing each other.
When I think that you are hiding in the guise of a peace-loving, neutral-dwelling internet surfer, it helps to show the existence of people that make it their business to keep the hate and fear going, and growing.
No problem.
Good luck. Slippery Guy.

Just so you can see the accuracy of my prediction . . .

If anyone wants to see these fundies do a 180 on the whole "equal time" argument and possibly even threaten you with bodily harm . . .

Print up a few copies of the bible with a special forward . . . Explain to your readers that this volume is nothing more than a collection of stories. Index all of the logical fallacies, contridictions, and other imaginary silliness . . . end with an opinion about the validity of any claims based within due to the illogical nature of said book and the fairytale nature of the stories. Give out these copies to prominent evangelicals in your area. Make a youtube video promoting this new version. Sit back and collect the death threats . . .

Great fun for the whole family . . . especially the hypocrisy.

Got to love evangelicals/protestants . . . they can sure dish it in god's name, but play the persecuted victim as soon as the shoe is on the other foot.

Which led us to here . . .

I'm not even sure I believe in God, but I am pretty sure that if I was present somewhere, and saw somebody like you do something like you described, I might just put my foot up your a** on principle.

And, no, I don't think there is anything wrong with their approach to gaining new believer to the Christian faith. It's subtle and it's harmless.

Make no mistake here... You have taken on the very substance of that which you despise about the dark side of Christianity.

Originally posted by LASTofTheV8s
reply to post by solomons path

 

It's so funny.

I can tell you are an expert at this.
Disgusting.
It is people like you, (yup, I said it again), that are responsible for the hate of a relatively spiritual and peaceful group of people.
You continue to try and focus the hate and fear of non-Christians against the simple, needy people that have found help in Christianity, and I will continue to point out how dark and empty your viewpoints are.
Every era, and every argument has people like you, to keep people hating and fearing each other.
When I think that you are hiding in the guise of a peace-loving, neutral-dwelling internet surfer, it helps to show the existence of people that make it their business to keep the hate and fear going, and growing.
No problem.
Good luck. Slippery Guy.

You, sir, deserve a round of applause. Yes . . . the very notion, such as this HYPOTHETICAL situation, was enough to get even your blood pumping. You do realize I haven't done this right . . . it was to point out the hypocrisy of their argument. Not each and every christian alive . . . the issue in the OP. And then . . . you came in to save the day for your boy Kirk . . . Bravo!! Pure comedy gold . . . Bravo!!

reply to post by LASTofTheV8s


There is nothing tolerant or humorous about the phrase

Originally posted by LASTofTheV8s
Hhmmm... At this point, um, yeah, I think it's pretty much your existence that bugs me.

In fact, it's quite disturbing.

If you fail to see that, none of my other arguments have any chance of ever getting through to you. I should have seen that earlier and not started an argument with you.

I apologize for anything I might have said to offend you, it wasn't my intention. I can't apologize for my believes though. Nor for my existence or nationality

Have fun in your witch hunt, man. And you got nothing to worry about me complaining to the mods. I would take it out of that post completely, but it seems I can't edit older posts.



[edit on 27-12-2009 by Wallachian]

reply to post by LASTofTheV8s


I missed that post. That has nothing to do with the theory. What has to do with the theory was the initial science and observations Darwin came up with, and the 150 years since that have vindicated him, and his ideas, entirely. The theory of evolution we have now is far more advanced than the theory was when he wrote his book. It's great science.

reply to post by LASTofTheV8s


Very admirable. It's a shame not more Christians are like him. Clearly his work has nothing to with him being a Christian, but the fibre of his character. If it was simply down to him being a Christian, then there would be literally thousands of people from every town going over to Africa and doing the same as him. Unfortunately, there are not - most Christians seem happy to just be seen to go to Church on a Sunday, put some money in the collection plate, and hope that the money does some good (which most of it won't).

So mad props for your friend - he's fantastic, and a great Christian. As for the others, meh.

Originally posted by davesidious
reply to post by LASTofTheV8s

 

I missed that post. That has nothing to do with the theory. What has to do with the theory was the initial science and observations Darwin came up with, and the 150 years since that have vindicated him, and his ideas, entirely. The theory of evolution we have now is far more advanced than the theory was when he wrote his book. It's great science.

reply to post by LASTofTheV8s

 

Very admirable. It's a shame not more Christians are like him. Clearly his work has nothing to with him being a Christian, but the fibre of his character. If it was simply down to him being a Christian, then there would be literally thousands of people from every town going over to Africa and doing the same as him. Unfortunately, there are not - most Christians seem happy to just be seen to go to Church on a Sunday, put some money in the collection plate, and hope that the money does some good (which most of it won't).

So mad props for your friend - he's fantastic, and a great Christian. As for the others, meh.

I have been fortunate enough to have had a fairly rounded religious background. Traveling the world and forever searching for answers.
Certainly not forced by my parents. Although I do believe that some sort of spirituality and social belief as a youngster is a plus. Common folks the world over differ little in their thinking.
Most here attempt to deride religion due to it's role in warfare. But that is a double edge sword.
Without an opposing religion there would be no war. Religion is based on politics (crowd control).
The suggestion that evolution is a fact is unproven. You cannot do a 4 billion year experiment in 130 years.
All science to date has been revised and is updated daily to fit new evidence and political agenda.
Although I have met or know few Atheistic folks understanding their concepts is difficult for me.
Do they tell their children that when they die that's it? You, your family, your pet hamster and dog will all just be put in a hole for sure one day and that's it? Where is the futuristic aspect of atheism?
I have heard some talk of people living forever. Will science keep all atheist alive for ever if they BELIEVE in science with all their harts?
Worshiping a totally new concept such as science is just an alternative to other worship.
Worshiping your own (duh intellect) is nothing more than vanity.
Science has created Absolutly NOTHING. It is nothing but a humble observer of what exists.
No science can show that Creation is not a scientific Fact.
There is no permanent definition of truth.

So, are current Darwinists still sticking with the primordial ooze origin or have they updated their view based on evidence of amino acids and water in meteors and comets?

Do they still contend that all life originated from a single source on earth?

And if life can randomly begin once, can it not do so multiple times?

Do they allow for interplanetary origins?

Just because all life on earth shares a lot of similar DNA does not mean that life on other planets does not share DNA with us as well.

And why the naked ape?, what evolutionary advantage is there for being completely unprotected from the environment, unlike all other species?

There is a lot of evidence for darwinsim but it is by no means complete or conclusive.

Originally posted by solomons path

Just so you can see the accuracy of my prediction . . .

If anyone wants to see these fundies do a 180 on the whole "equal time" argument and possibly even threaten you with bodily harm . . .

Print up a few copies of the bible with a special forward . . . Explain to your readers that this volume is nothing more than a collection of stories. Index all of the logical fallacies, contridictions, and other imaginary silliness . . . end with an opinion about the validity of any claims based within due to the illogical nature of said book and the fairytale nature of the stories. Give out these copies to prominent evangelicals in your area. Make a youtube video promoting this new version. Sit back and collect the death threats . . .

Great fun for the whole family . . . especially the hypocrisy.

Got to love evangelicals/protestants . . . they can sure dish it in god's name, but play the persecuted victim as soon as the shoe is on the other foot.

Which led us to here . . .

I'm not even sure I believe in God, but I am pretty sure that if I was present somewhere, and saw somebody like you do something like you described, I might just put my foot up your a** on principle.

And, no, I don't think there is anything wrong with their approach to gaining new believer to the Christian faith. It's subtle and it's harmless.

Make no mistake here... You have taken on the very substance of that which you despise about the dark side of Christianity.

Originally posted by LASTofTheV8s
reply to post by solomons path

 

It's so funny.

I can tell you are an expert at this.
Disgusting.
It is people like you, (yup, I said it again), that are responsible for the hate of a relatively spiritual and peaceful group of people.
You continue to try and focus the hate and fear of non-Christians against the simple, needy people that have found help in Christianity, and I will continue to point out how dark and empty your viewpoints are.
Every era, and every argument has people like you, to keep people hating and fearing each other.
When I think that you are hiding in the guise of a peace-loving, neutral-dwelling internet surfer, it helps to show the existence of people that make it their business to keep the hate and fear going, and growing.
No problem.
Good luck. Slippery Guy.

You, sir, deserve a round of applause. Yes . . . the very notion, such as this HYPOTHETICAL situation, was enough to get even your blood pumping. You do realize I haven't done this right . . . it was to point out the hypocrisy of their argument. Not each and every christian alive . . . the issue in the OP. And then . . . you came in to save the day for your boy Kirk . . . Bravo!! Pure comedy gold . . . Bravo!!

And you have proved the lengths of manipulation people like you are willing to go to, in order to get the results they desire.
I am also disgusted at the absolute joy you seem to take in the situation.
Whatever you think of your goal and your actions, you sir, are absolutely grotesque. Please do not kid yourself into believing that there is anything honorable or positive in your agenda.
By all means, please continue patting yourself on the back. I doubt if you have gained any supporters here.

Originally posted by Wallachian
reply to post by LASTofTheV8s

 

There is nothing tolerant or humorous about the phrase

Originally posted by LASTofTheV8s
Hhmmm... At this point, um, yeah, I think it's pretty much your existence that bugs me.

In fact, it's quite disturbing.

I'm sorry it disturbed you. The sarcasm of it didn't come through correctly. I just thought it sounded ridiculous, to want somebody "not to exist". That's all.

If you fail to see that, none of my other arguments have any chance of ever getting through to you. I should have seen that earlier and not started an argument with you.

I apologize for anything I might have said to offend you, it wasn't my intention. I can't apologize for my believes though. Nor for my existence or nationality

I do understand where you are coming from. And, I am very glad that you exist! Please continue to do so.

Have fun in your witch hunt, man. And you got nothing to worry about me complaining to the mods. I would take it out of that post completely, but it seems I can't edit older posts.

To be accurate, it would be more of a "Bully-Hunt". "Witches" are ok with me. And, as I said, the Mod-thing is ok.

Originally posted by Deny Arrogance
So, are current Darwinists still sticking with the primordial ooze origin or have they updated their view based on evidence of amino acids and water in meteors and comets?

Do they still contend that all life originated from a single source on earth?

And if life can randomly begin once, can it not do so multiple times?

Do they allow for interplanetary origins?

Just because all life on earth shares a lot of similar DNA does not mean that life on other planets does not share DNA with us as well.

And why the naked ape?, what evolutionary advantage is there for being completely unprotected from the environment, unlike all other species?

There is a lot of evidence for darwinsim but it is by no means complete or conclusive.

There are a lot of scientists out there that have begun to revise their views of how life has proceeded here, and possibly "out there".

More and more, and in other scientific mediums, evidence has been glimpsed that shows the probability of "Intelligent Intervention" of some kind being needed to kick-start processes that we used to think occurred on their own. This has been proposed for the Big Bang, as well as the generation of life here on Earth.
And these notions are being put forward by scientists, not Religious Leaders.
If things are actually being guided, at what point does "Evolution", as a natural process, stop being Evolution, and start being "Creation"?

And, if, at some point, we start to call it "Creation" again, doesn't the argument just turn into "what face do we put on God"?

reply to post by LASTofTheV8s


Nope. Please provide proof. Experiments have shown that all the compounds needed for life to start are formed naturally by lightning strikes on the basic chemistry found in large puddles on the primitive Earth. No external interference is necessary. So, please show some evidence of science being turned on its head, and we can continue this discussion.

Originally posted by davesidious
reply to post by LASTofTheV8s

 

Nope. Please provide proof. Experiments have shown that all the compounds needed for life to start are formed naturally by lightning strikes on the basic chemistry found in large puddles on the primitive Earth. No external interference is necessary. So, please show some evidence of science being turned on its head, and we can continue this discussion.

Well, where should we go first? Do you want me to show proof that some scientists are still unclear how life began here? Or, proof that some scientists think there was some sort of intervention needed?
Or, are we going all the way back, to show proof that some scientists have also proposed that the Big Bang needed to be "set-off"?

Originally posted by davesidious
reply to post by LASTofTheV8s

 

Nope. Please provide proof. Experiments have shown that all the compounds needed for life to start are formed naturally by lightning strikes on the basic chemistry found in large puddles on the primitive Earth. No external interference is necessary. So, please show some evidence of science being turned on its head, and we can continue this discussion.

Science is just now starting to wobble on shaky legs.
It is in it's infancy compared to LIFE.
It falls short and falls down repeatedly.
I am all for science and have an extensive fossil collection and absorb all I can about life origins.
Creation alone (forget about religion) is not a case closed subject.
Even if life is a circle, who, what created the circle?

Originally posted by davesidious
reply to post by LASTofTheV8s

 

Nope. Please provide proof. Experiments have shown that all the compounds needed for life to start are formed naturally by lightning strikes on the basic chemistry found in large puddles on the primitive Earth. No external interference is necessary. So, please show some evidence of science being turned on its head, and we can continue this discussion.

Please show evidence that all the compounds necessary for life were present on primitive earth to spark life. Experiments in very controlled environments have proven that an electrical charge into a mixture of gases and water can create basic amino acids but not life.

And even those experiments were flawed, because scientists debate the actual composition of the atmosphere at that time.

No protocell has ever been created as far as I know.

Of course darwinists say origin of life is not a part of darwins theory to avoid this sticky topic.

“We didn’t see it happen, we can’t make it happen again, and we don’t know how it could possibly have happened, but it must have happened somehow!” is never a satisfactory scientific explanation.

I am not religious nor do I believe in creationism, since there is not enough scientific proof for that either.

I think darwinism raises more questions than it answers.

And for so many to consider it to be the end all and be all takes almost as much of a leap of faith as creationism.

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by Phage

 

Goodness gracious me. They're so desperate to discredit evolution, and if not, prying 'God' or at least 'Intelligent Designer' in there somewhere.

Do you think that DNA’s amazing structure could have come together by accident? Or does it point to an intelligent Designer? Even the director of the U.S. National Human Genome Research Institute concluded there is a God based on his study of DNA. Francis Collins, the scientist who led the team that cracked the human genome, believes there is a rational basis for a Creator and that scientific discoveries bring man “closer to God”:

When you have for the first time in front of you this 3.1-billion-letter instruction book that conveys all kinds of information and all kinds of mystery about humankind, you can’t survey that going through page
after page without a sense of awe. I can’t help but look at those pages and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God’s mind.

PDF of the book with the 'preface'.


By accident? Accident implies will somewhere. If someone asks "Does it rain by accident?" You're going to reply something like "No, "accident" doesn't apply to the inanimate. Clouds don't choose when to rain, nor fail to rain at will."

No, it just happens. It's circumstantial happenings.

I hate this kind of sneaky, underhanded use of language to combat Theory instead of looking at the evidence.

[edit on 26-9-2009 by Welfhard]

Since rain does not have freewill it follows it's programing.

reply to post by Deny Arrogance


OK, lazy pants Here you go.

reply to post by davesidious


Which of the dozen or so divergent hypothesis of abiogenesis listed on that page has been proven?

Nobody on that page even claims to have created a protocell.

Phage
Kirk Cameron (Remember him?) is hawking the give away of free copies of Origin of Species on it's 150th anniversary. Strange? Not really, it's a "special publication", a 50 page preface has been added to it. What's in the preface?

[edit on 9/26/2009 by Phage]

I'm sure this has been posted 72 times already.

Get ready for 73. I want to marry this woman! Lol.

(just came across this - S&F.)

reply to post by Phage


Are we able to preface Kirk Cameron?