Swine Flu Vaccine-Questions,Help needed!

Hi Everyone,
Having just read about the two possible vaccines which are being made avalible in the UK,I have some important questions which I could do with some help with.

The two vaccines which are being readied are:

Pandemrix(Glaxo Smithkline) and Celvapan(Baxter).

The European Medicines Agency has recommended to the European Commission that Pandemrix, made by GlaxoSmithKline (GSK), be granted a licence for use across Europe, including the UK. A second vaccine, also intended for use in the UK – Celvapan, which is made by Baxter – is still being considered by the European Medicines Agency.

www.walesonline.co.uk...

Ok,so I am assuming these vaccines have been created to combat the H1N1 strain,right?

WRONG !!!

Wikipedia on Pandemrix:

Pandemrix, marketed as Prepandrix, is a pre-pandemic influenza vaccine for the H5N1 virus, or Bird flu. The vaccine contains an Immunologic adjuvant and an inactivated flu virus from a strain of the H5N1 virus found in Vietnam in 2004 (A/Vietnam/1194/2004). A pre-pandemic vaccine is intended for use in the early stages of a pandemic before a pandemic vaccine can be developed specifically for that outbreak. The vaccine is the H5N1 vaccine approved for use by the European Commission on 20th May 2008 upon the recommendations of The European Medicines Agency (EMEA).[1] The vaccine is only approved for use when a H5N1 Influenza pandemic has been officially declared by the WHO or EU, since the vaccine only offers significant inoculation for up to 6 months.[2]

en.wikipedia.org...

European Medicines Agency on Celvapan:

What is Celvapan? Celvapan is a vaccine that is given by injection. It contains influenza (flu) viruses that have been inactivated (killed). Celvapan contains a flu strain called A/VietNam/1203/2004 (H5N1).

www.emea.europa.eu...

So we have the two vaccines-Both of which were designed to combat the AVIAN flu strain H5N1,which originated in S E ASIA in 2004 !

Can anyone please explain to me why the vaccines they have chosen to deploy against the SWINE FLU H1N1 were developed to combat AVIAN FLU H5N1?

I was under the impression that the vaccine would be tailor made to protect against the H1N1 Swine flu,which we are told began in Mexico of 2009.

Why are they using two vaccines which were tailored to protect against the earlier(2004) H5N1 Avian flu strain?

What the hell is going on here-can someone please put my mind at rest here?

Are the pharma companies really going to try to give us the vaccine from a previous strain of flu?

WHY?

Thanks in advance.

It's possible that they've realised the H5N1 vaccines will work against H1N1 too.

Another theory could be that they've tailored the H5N1 vaccine to actually make you contract H5N1... Conspiracies abound!

Something does not feel right about this....Are they trying to give us an old vaccine,simply because they made loads of it in anticipation of the Bird flu taking off in a big way a few years back?

They have been telling us that they have been working 24/7 on getting a "new" vaccine out for swine flu-what they are gointg to give us is not new,and not even for the correct strain.

None of the information I have read suggests that these vaccines protect against Swine flu..

This is really bothering me.

reply to post by Silcone Synapse


Is it possible that H5N1 and H1N1 are so closely related that the vaccine will work on either?

Maybe the vaccine is just a placebo?
I mean, let's face it, swine flu is pretty much just ordinary flu, that happens to have gotten a load of press.
Imagine if the same coverage was given to normal flu?

This is.... weird. FDA approved swine flu vaccines from 4 manufacturers couple of weeks ago, and those two are not in the list.
www.fda.gov...
I have possible non-conspiracy answer though.
The fear is not from H1N1 which is not more lethal or has more side effects then "usual" seasonal flues, but from possible hybrid of H1N1 that has high infection rate and H1N5 with high lethality rate. So they try to cover this option until H1N1 designated vaccines start to arrive from production line.

[edit on 26-9-2009 by ZeroKnowledge]

Good Find!

I wish I had an answer for you to put your mind at rest...
but I have to say that is very supicious indeed.

Good investigating, If I can dig up anything I will definitely post it here.

reply to post by suicide__x


I hope its the case that the vaccine will work against swine flu,but the reason I am worried is they told us that an entirley new vaccine would have to be developed...this does not seem to be the case now.

I don't know enough about the subject to make an informed desicion as to why they are seemingly using this older,Bird flu vaccine.

The reason the H prefix is different is because its a different strain of flu I assume,and would need a different vaccine,but I am not sure exactly.
Thanks for your help.

H and N are for slightly different forms of two (from 11) proteins that make up external coating of the virus - Hemagglutenin and Neuraminedase. Antibodies to these glycoproteins ,that are responsible for virus entering/leaving the cell, can be created naturally or with help of vaccines, and virus thus neutralized.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Hmm,so according to your FDA link the US is going to deploy different vaccines to what we get in europe,the US versions made to fight H1N1,which is at least the right strain.

_________________________________________________________

I just phoned a medical student friend of mine,and he said The H prefix tells of 15 known about combinations of haemaglutinin(sp?) antigens.
He says the antigens are what provoke the bodies immune response-IE they are the reason we get ill as the body fights the antigens.
I was trying to ask him if a H5 vaccine would be effective against a H1 strain,but I got cut off as he is on a train,and has bad phone reception.
Probably just as well as I was struggling to understand what he was saying.
I will try again later to find out.

My main worry is that they may know more than they are telling us,and that Avian H5N1 may be about to make a comeback.

reply to post by Silcone Synapse


Ha! I think you going to like this. If someone has access to university library, he probably could see the whole article, but abstract gives general idea:

The recent worldwide spread of the swine-origin H1N1 2009 influenza outbreak has resulted in its designation as a pandemic by the World Health Organization. While it appears to result in mild symptoms, concern still exists that a more severe influenza pandemic with a high case fatality ratio might arise by reassortment or mutation of the currently circulating avian influenza (H5N1) virus. Given that recently developed candidate pre-pandemic H5N1 vaccines have shown potential for cross-strain protection, we investigated alternative vaccination strategies that exploit such vaccines using an agent-based simulation model of an actual community of approximately 30 000 people in a developed country

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov... Sum

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

Good find!
So that suggest the potential for cross strain protection from the H5 vaccine.
Thats the first info I have seen which mentions that.
From that quote,it sounds as though they are more worried about the Avian flu than the swine flu.

It still seems a cop out on the part of the pharma companies though-the fact that they blagged everyone into believing that they were working round the clock to give us a totally NEW vaccine,when in fact it seems we in europe will get the older ready made H5 vaccine.

I wonder how much extra money they were given to develop the "swine flu" vaccine?

I honestly expected as much since swine flu has been transferable between humans and Swine and more recently been found to be transferable between humans and poultry.

So we have a flu virus that can can cross the interspecies divide.

What does anyone honestly expect will happen when the Swine flu virus spreads throughout the Asian sub continent and the poultry there begin to catch the swine flu virus.

So ask yourself what is the chance that the Swine flu will combine with bird flu to create a hybrid, which has the potential to be both contagious AND lethal..

May 09 Canada: first reported case of H1N1 in Swine
Vet inary News: H1N1 vaccine for pigs
Concern in Asia as H1N1 found in Chilean Poultry

Originally posted by thoughtsfull

So ask yourself what is the chance that the Swine flu will combine with bird flu to create a hybrid, which has the potential to be both contagious AND lethal..

I've been considring this scenario since I first heard about the swine flu 'epidemic' (as it was at the time) and I reckon if it does combine to form a hybrid - we're doomed, to put it simply.

reply to post by suicide__x


It certainly seems that way, to be perfectly contrived of 2 different strains of influenza would create a more lethal form than any of the original strains, and more of a risk to those susceptible. But hey, with the addition of the neurotoxic adjuvants in the shots, whoever isn't physically or mentally maimed with the vaccines will probably surely catch the strain from those who received the shots, and suffer horribly one way or the other. Breaking down the immune system makes it extremely easy to catch any virus when contamination is difficult to avoid.

From my far-right mindset, what is the perceived need for such a bioweapon to be released on the general populace instead of contained? Surely with the established quarantine preparations currently underway, the plan would have been to contain most of the populace away from those who have no chance of catching this flu to begin with, or those who worry about catching it so much that quarantine seems like their only hope!!

reply to post by suicide__x


Personally I've been looking for the links that will indicate a strong possibility that the 2 strains will combine.. and given the fact that the immune level in poultry as domesticated birds is lower than wild birds, and given the symptoms of a flu virus in poultry is the same be it H5N1 or H1N1 how will the world tell if birds are infected with either strain?

Perhaps the Western world will be able to detect and neutralise the threat (perhaps with a cull to reduce the risk?? or some form of vaccine as with Swine, tho I am just guessing here) but what about the poor poultry farms/owners, what are they meant to do how do? where will their governments get the funds to respond to any potential risks!

So in my mind given the ease at which H1N1 can cross the interspecies divide, the ease at which it is transferable between humans and the levels of poverty in some parts of the world. I feel it safe to assume that the combination that creates a hybrid virus is almost a certainty.

And now with information that the vaccines in Europe are based on the H5N1 vaccine it seems they (Government/Who/Big Pharma) are covering the same ground and coming to the same conclusions.

Although I would expect the combination to occur when Swine flu hits the Asian sub continent.. So in my mind we are safe for now.. So feeling that way, do I go forward for the vaccine or not? I don't know.. but I'll let a few million people try it before I do and then see what happen :-)


[edit on 26/9/09 by thoughtsfull]

I for one, plan to take the vaccine as soon as I can.

Not because I think it'll protect me, not because I've been brainwashed.
Because I want to experience firsthand any negative effects, which will then allow me to warn others!

A martyr, perhaps?

UK Department of Rural Agriculture and Development confirms H1N1 infected pigs in N/Ireland. Source

and offers advice on poultry keeping in the UK Source

Where pig herds and poultry flocks are located on the same premises, biosecurity precautions should be in place to minimise the risk of disease spreading between units.

Offers more advice that pigs should be kept 3m from Humans in petting zoo's and open farms. Sour ce

Since this virus can easily cross the interspecies divide there are a lot of avenues that could lead this virus to mutate.

So how many farms around the world have both pigs and poultry on the same farm?

UK H1N1 Positive Animal Results Sept 2009

Edit: erased table

[edit on 26/9/09 by thoughtsfull]

Google is a very good thing and checking the sources of news articles is also a very good thing. (took me about 2 minutes to find this). News articles are not always correct, nor do they always provide full information.

The OP article said it was Pandemrix and Celvapan. The European Medicines Agency (which the article references as the source) says it is Focetria and Pandemrix.

From the horse's mouth:

European Medicines Agency recommends authorisation of two vaccines for influenza pandemic (H1N1) 2009

The vaccines concerned are Focetria (Novartis) and Pandemrix (GlaxoSmithKline). Decisions on the granting of European Union-wide marketing authorisations for the vaccines by the European Commission are expected shortly. Vaccination strategies are decided by the government in each EU Member State, taking into account the information provided by the Agency for each vaccine.

Focetria and Pandemrix were authorised using the so-called ‘mock-up’ approach. This approach allowed development and authorisation of these vaccines in advance of the pandemic, based on information generated with a different virus strain that could have caused a pandemic (an H5N1 influenza virus strain). Once the A(H1N1)v virus strain causing the pandemic was identified by the Word Health Organization, the manufacturers were able to include it in the mock-up vaccines to prepare final pandemic vaccines.

The drug was approved sans virus (kind of like a shell)... waiting on the identification of the current virus to incorporate into it.

In any case, I won't be taking any swine flu vaccination.











[edit on 26/9/2009 by Iamonlyhuman]

"Further clinical trials in adults and in children are ongoing and more results will become available from October/November 2009 onwards.
The vaccines recommended for authorisation, Focetria and Pandemrix, contain ‘adjuvants’ (substances that enhance the immune response so that less viral material can be used in each dose of vaccine). They are widely used in vaccine manufacture and have a good safety record. The adjuvant in Focetria has been used in another flu vaccine since 1997 in more than 45 million doses. The adjuvant in Pandemrix has been tested in clinical trials involving several thousand subjects.
As with all medicines, rare adverse reactions may only be detected once the vaccines are used in large numbers of people. The Agency has requested that vaccine manufacturers implement plans to actively investigate and monitor the safety of vaccines as soon as they are used across the EU, so that action
can be taken as early as possible if a safety issue emerges. As part of this, the manufacturers have committed to carry out post-authorisation safety studies in about 9,000 subjects for each vaccine."

I dislike this article very much. Adjuvants (such as squalene and mercury?) enhance the immune response? With no legal recourse for any adverse reactions, some of which are not felt or noticed until years after the shots are given, there is no legal record of adverse reactions to be documented.

Adverse reactions may only be detected once they are used in large numbers of people?? How true is this statement? So they must vaccinate vast numbers before they "know" there's a reaction. I wonder if going through the flu after receiving the flu vaccine would be considered as an adverse reaction. My thoughts are racing on this one, there is so much fundamentally and logically wrong with that statement.

And they won't know any of this for sure until after the October/November 2009 pandemic has passed how many actually will have displayed adverse reactions. How convenient is this to know when they can stop looking for possible adverse reactions?

My wife works in Research Administration at a large University in the US. She spent years in the lab prior to this position. Her current boss also has a biological background with several years speciality with infectious disease.

Last week she told us the difference between Swine Flu and Avian/ Bird Flu...

If you get the Bird Flu you'll need "tweetment" but if you get Swine Flu "oinkment" will do...