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Marine: U.S. lost 'moral high ground' at Gitmo

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posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 05:31 PM
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Marine: U.S. lost 'moral high ground' at Gitmo


www.msnbc.msn.com

The Marine commander who built the Guantanamo Bay prison said Thursday the U.S. lost the "moral high ground" with its brutal treatment of prisoners, and the facility should be closed as quickly as possible.

"I think it is extraordinarily important how we treat prisoners," he said. "Obviously, there were other views."

The general said he didn't feel the U.S. would get much useful information by using the techniques.

Lehnert now oversees seven West Coast Marine bases. He retires Tuesday.

(visit the link for the full news article)



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posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 05:31 PM
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I guess he feels like he can speak out now that he is short five days to retirement.

Leave it to a Marine, the one in charge of building the facility at that, to tell it like it is.

I'm sure many here disagree, and the good general probably will still face considerable fallout from his statements.

I bet he doesn't care. I bet he feels like a huge weight just came off his shoulders, and his conscience.

www.msnbc.msn.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 25-9-2009 by Icarus Rising]



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 05:41 PM
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What brutal treatment is he talking about? Cigar smoke blown in the faces of terrorists? I wonder since Club Gitmo is in Cuba if our brave troops have access to Cuban cigars?

"The general didn't feel the US wouldn't get any information by using such techniques.?" I wonder how he feels about being WRONG?

There's one in every bunch I guess?



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 05:48 PM
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reply to post by Icarus Rising
 


wow. There just ain't really anything quite like someone speaking out against something when they are a couple days away from retiring. Where was this pertinent opinion when he had something to lose?

Funny how people mysteriously find integrity when they're not on the company payroll anymore or when they don't have to worry about a job anymore....oh yeah, I know, he'll still be making plenty...they don't have the same 401 K BS to worry about that WE do, right?

Start zapping my nipples with a car battery and I'm gonna sing like a fat lady with viking horns. I'll just make stuff up.



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 06:48 PM
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Our enemies burn people alive in pits, line people up to save bullets, cut people's heads off with dull blades and videotape it for the internet, blow up markets full of innocent people and crash loaded jetliners in to buildings with thousands of people in them.

We would have to do some pretty jacked up stuff to lose moral high ground to that. As former USAF, I completely disagree with this Marine. His charge just doesn't hold up to reality. Hes just trying to be diplomatic.



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 06:54 PM
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He is absolutely wrong!

The U.S. lost its moral high ground years ago in an Iraqi prison.

What happened in Cuba doesn't even come close to the abuses inflicted on prisoners in Iraq at the hands of US military personnel who were allegedly acting under orders.

If we ever had any "moral high ground" to begin with.




posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 07:45 PM
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reply to post by Walkswithfish
 


Abu Ghraib didn't help, but I think Gitmo went up first. Correct me if I am wrong.

Torture elicits lies. Simple as that.



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 09:31 PM
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The General made his concerns known through the appropriate chain of command:


It was the first time Maj. Gen. Michael Lehnert publicly acknowledged his doubts, although he said he did make his concerns known through the appropriate chain of command.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


Obviously, he wasn't heard by the Commander in Chief.

If he had just gone to the media with his concerns he probably would have been subject to disciplinary action. Such action would have been considered insubordination.

To play devil's advocate, it looks like he decided to try to work from within the system, but was unsuccessful, at least until the new administration came in.

Maybe he feels like he did the best he could, and who knows, things might have been worse under a different general.

Just trying to see it from his perspective.



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 10:03 PM
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reply to post by Sestias
 


This is just the tip of the iceberg. More and more brave military personnel are going to spill the beans on just what exactly went on in the military controlled prisons. America will be shocked and appalled! And the apologists will look even bigger fools than they do now.

It's hard to keep the moral high ground when those in command are sadistic, corrupt and morally bankrupt themselves.
www.commondreams.org...
www.andyworthington.co.uk...


[edit on 25-9-2009 by whaaa]



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 02:37 AM
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Originally posted by KSPigpen
reply to post by Icarus Rising
 


Where was this pertinent opinion when he had something to lose?


Don't think he can't lose his pension.

Will that satisfy you?



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 03:16 AM
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I don't have time to post an exhaustive answer, but I must respond. Looking at the United States of America after the Civil War, it is impossible to find a time when it legitimately could occupy the moral ground. The USA used a false flag event in the Spanish American War, and that was not the last time such evil actions were employed. Where is the moral high ground in the U.S. American 'theft' of the Kingdom of Hawaii? The CIA assasinations of unwanted Heads of State and on and on and on it goes, and until recently the average US American bought the official story, drank the Kool-Aid, and never looked back.

The evil massacre of innocent civilians through the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki remains the darkest, most horrifying stain on the United States, and it is constantly made worse by the way the Elite have programmed the U.S. people to believe an absolute lie, namely that the use of the bombs was justified in saving U.S. American lives. What in the name of God makes you think that the wanton slaughter of innocent people in Japan (many of them Roman Catholic) was justified? Attrocities committed by the Kingdom of Japan do not exonerate the USA in any way. The despicable way the FDR administration backed Japan into a corner and just let the attack at Pearl Harbour happen! What of the bombing of Serbia so as to defend Albanian muslims ... what? It was a convenient little war for Mr. Clinton, his gonads, and his sex addiction. And the invasion of Iraq? Iraq?????

Where is the moral high ground for the USA in the invasion of Iraq. What will George W. Bush and the US American people be remembered for in the invasion of Iraq? I'll tell you: the complete destruction and dispersal of the native Christian population of the country of Iraq! Well done, Mr. Bush, you destroyed the Christians in Iraq. Hooray for the moral high ground.

And now David Rockefeller's littl puppet Obama is making his star turn in a sordid TV show called 'The Engineered Fall and Destruction of the American Empire' !!!



[edit on 26/9/09 by Pellevoisin]



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 10:01 AM
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reply to post by Pellevoisin
 


Can't argue with anything in your post, except the separation between the American people and the US government. Maybe the good ol' USA only lost the appearance of being able to claim the moral high ground. In the good general's defense, I think his comment was directed specifically toward the war on whatever. Though I believe the 9/11 attacks were planned and assisted from within the US government/political structure, so that claim doesn't hold much water either.

The facade is crumbling, the house of cards tumbling. I shudder to think what truths about this country and its government the aftermath will reveal. Though the truth is better than the lie any day.

"Let the truth be known though the heavens fall." - James Garrison

In a note to Henry Lee on August 10, 1824, Thomas Jefferson wrote: "Men by their constitutions are naturally divided into two parties: 1. Those who fear and distrust the people, and wish to draw all powers from them into the hands of the higher classes. 2. Those who identify themselves with the people, have confidence in them, cherish and consider them as the most honest and safe, although not the most wise depository of the public interests. [...]"

Power to the People!

[edit on 26-9-2009 by Icarus Rising]



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 10:13 AM
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reply to post by Pellevoisin
 


Perhaps you have conveniently forgotten the many native peace loving peoples across the expanse of the Pacific ocean that Japan brutally killed,subjugated, enslaved, and tortured. I wonder how they feel about Pearl Harbor, Nagasaki, and Hiroshima.

I can pretty much agree with the rest of your rant, but regardless how we came to start and end the war with Japan, it was something that needed to be done. How do you know the Japanese in those cities were Catholic? That does not sound like something the imperial army would tolerate. They went out of their way to torture Catholics in the Philippines and China.



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 11:15 AM
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I find this Marine commander's recent remarks about treatment of detainees at Gitmo and subsequent retirement as a little disturbing. He was responsible for the facility, and while in the position to do something, he chose to sit back and follow orders. Personally, I think the General is in the process of testing the waters, post retirement, for lucrative analyst jobs awaiting him with the mainstream media.

Again, if he was such a stalwart for America's quote unquote "Moral High Ground," why didn't he object to the methods at his facility? Everything has to go through him before it can be implemented, correct? He was in fact the steward of Gitmo was he not? There is something fishy about Maj. General Lehnart's recent change of heart and it doesn't sit well with me. He has an ulterior motive and that is 5 seconds of fame and a lucrative book deal or analyst job with the major news outlets to supplement his retirement pension.

Again, being given command of the facility and a figure of authority; he could have voiced his concerns through the chain of command about the treatment if it violate his moral convictions or simply ask to be relieved, but yet, he sat back and let it go on under his nose. So, I am unclear on the true nature of the General's public change of heart, but I think it is rather strange.



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by RRconservative
What brutal treatment is he talking about? Cigar smoke blown in the faces of terrorists? I wonder since Club Gitmo is in Cuba if our brave troops have access to Cuban cigars?

"The general didn't feel the US wouldn't get any information by using such techniques.?" I wonder how he feels about being WRONG?

There's one in every bunch I guess?


So you are seriously just calling him wrong? Because you must be right?


Oh, my estimation of the intelligence level of this forum just dropped considerably.

And indeed, there is one in every bunch.
Although, among your bunch I feel there are several.



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 02:04 PM
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reply to post by Jakes51
 




from the article
"I wanted to run it close to Geneva Convention rules," Lehnert said. "Our job was to take them out of the fight, and once we had done that, I felt we had a moral responsibility to take care of them."

However, another task force was put in charge of interrogating detainees, and there were disagreements over their treatment, Lehnert said.

"I came to the conclusion very soon that this probably wasn't the right way to go," said Lehnert, who served just 100 days at the base.

It was the first time Maj. Gen. Michael Lehnert publicly acknowledged his doubts, although he said he did make his concerns known through the appropriate chain of command.


That's why it is very important to always read the source article. Many, if not all of the objections and concerns you raise are answered right there. I'm not saying you are wrong about the book deal or analyst job, just that it seems much less likely to me in the face of the good general's extended comments.



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by detachedindividual
 


From the gist of the post, I think RR might just be jealous of the Cuban cigars the guards might have access to.



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 03:34 PM
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reply to post by Icarus Rising
 


Thanks for clearing up my concerns, but I saw the lead and I thought I would stand atop my milk crate and fume. With the strong-arm tactics taking place in an American city like Pittsburgh and against peaceful protesting American citizens, my disgust is a fever pitch at present!

Perhaps, I should have given the good General the benefit of a doubt before questioning his intentions? Thanks again Icarus, for sharing his extended remarks and I should have read into it a little further.



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 03:39 PM
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reply to post by Icarus Rising
 


Seems to me someone would be inclined to tell the truth under torture. If were lying, and their information didn't pan out, they would simply be tortured again.



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by Walkswithfish
He is absolutely wrong!

The U.S. lost its moral high ground years ago in an Iraqi prison.

What happened in Cuba doesn't even come close to the abuses inflicted on prisoners in Iraq at the hands of US military personnel who were allegedly acting under orders.

If we ever had any "moral high ground" to begin with.



You REALLY believe it started with Iraq??? ROFL.
Where were you when the CIA ran IRAN-Contra?

[edit on 26-9-2009 by Clearskies]



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