More Cracks in the Obamacare Facade: No Insurance? Can't Pay Fee? Go To Jail!

reply to post by jdub297


45% Of Doctors Would Consider Quitting If Congress Passes Health Care Overhaul

We've got a shortage WITHOUT adding 47 million to the patient rolls.

along with this,
www.investors.com...

• Four of nine doctors, or 45%, said they "would consider leaving their practice or taking an early retirement" if Congress passes the plan the Democratic majority and White House have in mind.

More than 800,000 doctors were practicing in 2006, the government says. Projecting the poll's finding onto that population, 360,000 doctors would consider quitting.

Originally posted by HotDogNoBun
I say we all just quit working and then its not a problem. we will get free food, free housing, free health insurance, and not a care in the world.

Not entirely so, we will all be put in jail then and...well, we will get the free food, housing and health insurance tho. Not to sure bout the "not a care in the world" part tho. Something about jail allways reminds me about some big dude named Bubba that thinks your cute. I'm good. Ill try and stay outa jail lol.

reply to post by dizzie56


They wont put us in jail. We will live in poverty on the government dole just the way they want it. Do you see anybody going to jail now for not working, no...
They get free food, free housing, and medicaid, which will then meet their insurance requirement and so they cant get fined.

reply to post by jdub297


I thought the jails where full already.
Where are we going to put all of these NEW criminals who don't
buy ObamaCare?
I guess that would create a lot of jobs by building new HUGE
federal prisons.
Hmmmm.....maybe Obama could give the new prisoners a
mandatory swine flu shot that kills most of them.

reply to post by dizzie56
Great post!

Most insurance is elective - you buy it if you want someone else to carry the risk of loss. Homeowner's, life, flood, et c.

Is car insurance mandatory to have? Answer...no. You dont have to drive.
Is homeowners insurance mandatory to have? Answer...no. If you pay for the house in cash or have it paid for you dont have to have it.
Renters insurance?...Only if you elect to.
Unemployement insurance?...that is mandatory and comes out of your check weekly/biweekly whatever in the form of a tax.

Excellent observation.

Even "mandatory" insurance really isn't. Many employers "opt out" of workers comp. There are more uninsured or unlicensed drivers in some states than there are insured (e.g., CA).

Unemployment, SS and SSI are mandated by the gov't and are bankrupt. They pay out more than they take in. Why do you think the gov't has to continually bailout these programs with money from other programs?

deny ignorance

jw

Originally posted by jdub297
reply to post by dizzie56

 

Having more people on your side that look at you as the sole provider will end up getting him re-elected. Im willing to bet that if he does get the amnesty bill that he wants he will be re-elected. And with this health care bill actually starting in 2013, they will try and push to get rid of the term limits for the prez. By 2014, not only will he have all the once illegal immigrants vote, but now all the people that cant afford their own health care and are completely dependent on the gov to pay for them.

Of course, Obama is supporting the deposed Honduran president - Zelaya. He opposed term limits (contrary to the Honduran Constitution and against Honduran law) and abolished them by executive decree. He was deposed by a coalition of government, military and the citizenry for treason, who immediately called for an election to replace him.

Obama suports this manner of governing, just as he supportsVenezuela's self-annointed "President for Life" Hugo Chavez.

You get what you pay for.

jw

"But when a people is induced to make the mistake of holding someone in high esteem because he is down on those whom they hold in detestation and that someone has his wits about him, it will always happen that a tyranny will arise in that city. For he will wait until, with the support of the populace, he has got rid of the nobility, and will not begin to oppress the people until he has got rid of it, by which time the populace will have come to realize that it is a slave and will have no way of escape."
-Machiavelli, The Discourses

Obama is allready setting out to do alot of the above. Look at what he has said about the banks that got the bailouts, the AIG bonuses, the stimulas packages, the cap and trade, and now he is wanting to put a cap on how much $ people can make? I remember reading about those AIG bonuses the first day in the newpaper that they came out and as soon as i saw the word bonus i knew everybody would focus on it, not the BILLIONS of dollars that went to offshore accounts, countries, other banks, what have you. But just the millions that were dolled out to people as their salary in the form of a "bonus". He is pitting most of Americans against people that have money so he can gain more power. He is positioning himself as the bread winner of America to the younger generation with empty promises that he can't fill without taxing us into slavery. While he is saying lookie over here, he is doing something in his other hand. I just hope it doesnt get to late for us and we get royally screwed. We will def see in the 2010 elections. We need to get rid of everybody, reps and dems. Start fresh with new blood and if they dont set up term limits right away, vote em out before they become to corrupt.

reply to post by jdub297


Prove me wrong bub. Instead of just claiming that I lie, PROVE IT. You can't, so why don't you stop lying and quit whining already.

Facts on the Cost of Health Insurance and Health Care

Health care spending continues to rise at a rapid rate forcing businesses to cut back on health insurance coverage and forcing many families to cut back on basic necessities such as food and electricity and, in some cases, shelters and homes.

Experts agree that our health care system is riddled with inefficiencies, excessive administrative expenses, inflated prices, poor management and inappropriate care, waste and fraud. These problems increase the cost of medical care associated with government health programs like Medicare and Medicaid, and health insurance for employers and workers and affect the security of families.



National Health Care Spending
National health spending is expected to reach $2.5 trillion in 2009, accounting for 17.6 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP). By 2018, national health care expenditures are expected to reach $4.4 trillion—more than double 2007 spending.1
National health expenditures are expected to increase faster than the growth in GDP: between 2008 and 2018, the average increase in national health expenditures is expected to be 6.2 percent per year, while the GDP is expected to increase only 4.1 percent per year. 1
In just three years, the Medicare and Medicaid programs will account for 50 percent of all national health spending. 1
Medicare's Hospital Insurance (HI) Trust Fund is expected to pay out more in hospital benefits and other expenditures this year than it receives in taxes and other dedicated revenues. In addition, the Medicare Supplementary Medical Insurance (SMI) Trust Fund that pays for physician services and the prescription drug benefit will continue to require general revenue financing and charges on beneficiaries that will grow substantially faster than the economy and beneficiary incomes over time. 2
According to one study, of the $2.1 trillion the U.S. spent on health care in 2006, nearly $650 billion was above what we would expect to spend based on the level of U.S. wealth versus other nations. These additional costs are attributable to $436 billion outpatient care and another $186 billion of spending related to high administrative costs. 3

Employer and Employee Health Insurance Costs

Over the last decade, employer-sponsored health insurance premiums have increased 119 percent. 4

Employees have seen their share of job-based coverage increase at nearly the same rate during this period jumping from $1,543 to $3,354.4
The cumulative increase in employer-sponsored health insurance premiums have raised at four times the rate of inflation and wage increases during last decade. This increase has made it much more difficult for businesses to continue to provide coverage to their employees and for those workers to afford coverage themselves.4
The average employer-sponsored premium for a family of four costs close to $13,000 a year, and the employee foots about 30 percent of this cost.4 Health insurance costs are the fastest growing expense for employers. Employer health insurance costs overtook profits in 2008, and the gap grows steadily. 5
Total health insurance costs for employers could reach nearly $850 billion by 2019. Individual and family spending will jump considerably from $326 billion in 2009 to $550 billion in 2019.6
The Congressional Budget Office has estimated that job-based health insurance could increase 100 percent over the next decade.7 Employer-based family insurance costs for a family of four will reach nearly $25,000 per year by 2018 absent health care reform.7

The Impact of Rising Health Care Costs
Economists have found that rising health care costs correlate with significant drops in health insurance coverage, and national surveys also show that the primary reason people are uninsured is due to the high and escalating cost of health insurance coverage.8
A recent study found that 62 percent of all bankruptcies filed in 2007 were linked to medical expenses. Of those who filed for bankruptcy, nearly 80 percent had health insurance.9
According to another published article, about 1.5 million families lose their homes to foreclosure every year due to unaffordable medical costs.10
Without health care reform, small businesses will pay nearly $2.4 trillion dollars over the next ten years in health care costs for their workers, 178,000 small business jobs will be lost by 2018 as a result of health care costs, $834 billion in small business wages will be lost due to high health care costs over the next ten years, small businesses will lose $52.1 billion in profits to high health care costs and 1.6 million small business workers will suffer “job lock“— roughly one in 16 people currently insured by their employers.11

References

1. Siska, A, et al, Health Spending Projections Through 2018: Recession Effects Add Uncertainty to The Outlook Health Affairs, March/April 2009; 28(2): w346-w357.
2. A Summary of the 2009 Annual Reports, Social Security and Medicare Boards of Trustees, 2009.
3. McKinsey & Company, Accounting for the Cost of U.S. Health Care – A New Look on Why Americans Spend More. McKinsey & Company, 2007
4. The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation. Employee Health Benefits: 2008 Annual Survey. September 2008.
5. McKinsey and Company. The McKinsey Quarterly Chart Focus Newsletter, “Will Health Benefit Costs Eclipse Profits,” September, 2004 and updated by Eric Jensen, Senior Fellow, McKinsey and Company at National Coalition on Health Care Forum on National Health Care Reform and Its Potential Impacts on New York, May 27, 2009.
6.Health Reform: The Cost of Failure. The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, May 2009.
7. Congressional Budget Office, “Taxes and Health Insurance,” February 29, 2008.
8. The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation. The Uninsured: A Primer, Key Facts About Americans without Health Insurance. 2009. April 2009.
9. Himmelstein, D, E., et al, “Medical Bankruptcy in the United States, 2007: Results of a National Study, American Journal of Medicine, May 2009.
10. Robertson, C.T., et al. “Get Sick, Get Out: The Medical Causes of Home Mortgage Foreclosures,” Health Matrix, 2008.
11. The Economic Impact of Healthcare Reform on Small Business, Small Business Majority, June 2009.

reply to post by dizzie56

I remember reading about those AIG bonuses the first day in the newpaper that they came out and as soon as i saw the word bonus i knew everybody would focus on it, not the BILLIONS of dollars that went to offshore accounts, countries, other banks, what have you. But just the millions that were dolled out to people as their salary in the form of a "bonus". He is pitting most of Americans against people that have money so he can gain more power. He is positioning himself as the bread winner of America to the younger generation with empty promises that he can't fill without taxing us into slavery.

Where've you been all my ATS life?

Recall that it was the lib/dem Chris Dodd who put the right language in the "Stimulus Bill" that authorized the AIG bonuses and continued pillaging of the public accounts.

Who rushed it into law? The dems.

Who ignored his own promise and exec. order to post all legislation for 5 days before signing it? Obama.

Who has approved the current banking rules that allow the biggest banks to get bigger? Dems. and Obama.

Who is allowing the next round of $multi-billion profits and bonus payments by the banks? Dems an Obama.

Machiavelli was right!

Obamites are being manipulated into submission and don't even see it. Hell, many are asking for it.

jw

Originally posted by uaocteaou
reply to post by jdub297

 

Prove me wrong bub. Instead of just claiming that I lie, PROVE IT. You can't, so why don't you stop lying and quit whining already.

WOW! Great rant! Completely pointless.

I hate our current system.

I do not like insurance companies. It is gambling with stacked odds.

I detest liars even more.

I didn't make these false assertions, YOU did. Ashamed, or just frustrated that not everyone takes your garbage at face value?

These are your assertions:

a bankruptcy is filed every 8 seconds because of medical bills

That's 3,942,000 PERSONAL bankruptcies per year. How many were "because of medical bills" and how do you determine "because of" and "medical bills."
("Death of breadwinner" and "loss of income" (the 2 main reasons) are not "because of medical bills.")

This is false, and you know it, or you'd have cited your sources as you did in the rest of your rant.

insurance companies deny 40% of all claims

Does this include auto, health, life, unemployment, Social Security, homeowners, renters?

I'll give you a head start. The ONLY Federal gov't-run insurance program listed, Social Security, DENIES 40% of all disability claims. The wait from application to benefits, with an average of 2 appeals, is 17 months. Many take 2 or more years.

Your second assertion is equally baseless as the first, except for the government-run health insurance program!

Put up or go away.

jw

Originally posted by jdub297
reply to post by dizzie56

 

I remember reading about those AIG bonuses the first day in the newpaper that they came out and as soon as i saw the word bonus i knew everybody would focus on it, not the BILLIONS of dollars that went to offshore accounts, countries, other banks, what have you. But just the millions that were dolled out to people as their salary in the form of a "bonus". He is pitting most of Americans against people that have money so he can gain more power. He is positioning himself as the bread winner of America to the younger generation with empty promises that he can't fill without taxing us into slavery.

Where've you been all my ATS life?

Recall that it was the lib/dem Chris Dodd who put the right language in the "Stimulus Bill" that authorized the AIG bonuses and continued pillaging of the public accounts.

Who rushed it into law? The dems.

Who ignored his own promise and exec. order to post all legislation for 5 days before signing it? Obama.

Who has approved the current banking rules that allow the biggest banks to get bigger? Dems. and Obama.

Who is allowing the next round of $multi-billion profits and bonus payments by the banks? Dems an Obama.

Machiavelli was right!

Obamites are being manipulated into submission and don't even see it. Hell, many are asking for it.

jw

Actually, if you listen to Obama, Bush did all those things lol. Im no bush lover by any means and i know that he had a hand in all of this, but its like they are beating a dead horse with blaming everything on him. Bush didnt create the omnibus bill and sign that into law, then a week later tell America that "we are going to only spend what he have." If i remember that correctly, that one was Obama. Couldnt agree with you more on all of the above.

I have this theory that people on the left like to be ruled while people on the right tend to want to rule themselves. Complete submission vs complete self awareness so to speak. With the left in power, we will be forced into submission thru subversive laws that can be used later as court precedents that end up being construed to something that they never were meant to be used for in the first place to fit their agenda. Eventually, this will make us all slaves of somebody else due to taxation and lack of freedom and liberties. Obviously not slaves in the classical sense, but slaves in the fact that we owe somebody something straight out of the womb. How does that go along with my Pursuit of Happiness? In my honest and humbling opinion, it does not make ME happy, and thats all that matters. If somebody wants to be ruled by somebody else and it makes them happy, let them, but that does not make it right to take away my Liberties to conform to their sense of happiness when its filled with nothing but dread and sorrow for me. They exploite and distort the very same laws that they use against us to get their idea of happiness to be everybody's idea of "the pursuit of happiness" whether they like it or not.

Frankly, its about time it all stops. I'm tired of having to be pc to a sensitive persons wants. Im tired of having to pay for somebody else's mistake when i can barely afford to pay for myself. If i want to give my money away to somebody, id give it to charity, not the gov to spend as it desires.

People need to start growing backbones in this country and remember their ancestors and have a sense of pride about themselves once more to turn the tide so to speak. Pursuit of Happiness is not just a silly line in the Declaration of Independence, its our way of life and should be available to everyone...not just the ones in power.

Originally posted by uaocteaou
All this talk about misdemeanors, doctors closing up shop, indentured servitude, what a joke.

Oh, I'm so mad that I'm going to HAVE to get health insurance, ooooh, poor me.

Do you have car insurance..? Homeowners insurance..? Renters Insurance...? Unemployment insurance..? Against the FDIC too I suppose.

Knock it off already. Stop all the WHINING!!!!

Health insurance for all, sure, a terrible concept. How could they!!

a bankruptcy is filed roughly every 8 seconds in this country because of medical bills, insurance companies take the premiums, then deny approximately 40% of all claims, while getting big subsidies from the government.

The guarantee emergency treatment (Reagan's Law), IS NOT health care for all, it's emergency treatment, that's it.

Quit your bitching, it's not a loss of liberty, that's a stupid thing to say, it's smart and responsible and right for this country.

Bunch of whiners.

You just listed choices.

Nothing in there that is manditory. Nothing you listed that we HAVE to have.

reply to post by uaocteaou


I just think it is appropriate that you have like a communist flag sickle and hammer as your avatar based on your undying love of communism.

not a 24 hour clock genius, if I have to explain that to you too, then it's just not worth it to argue with someone so full of hate that they'll even lie to themselves to justify their actions and statements.

Oh, and I thought the Bank Bailout was orchestrated and handed out by the previous administration, not the dem/ dodd/ evil liberal crowd. That was BUSH, folks.

Wanna bitch about Obama, talk about the stimulus, But the deregulation crowd was not cornered by the dems, the GOP was and still is pushing for little if any regulation.

You're just talking hate for hates sake now. Have at it, at least I know where you stand on a number of matters now.

I just think it is appropriate that you have like a communist flag sickle and hammer as your avatar based on your undying love of communism.

And you have NOTHING for an avatar, i guess that means that you're empty, nothing, ZERO. ?? Judgiing someone by their avatar..? isn't that a bit juvenile..? amateurish..? close minded..? stuppid!

[edit on 26-9-2009 by uaocteaou]

Originally posted by Eurisko2012
reply to post by jdub297

 

I thought the jails where full already.
Where are we going to put all of these NEW criminals who don't
buy ObamaCare?

FEMA Camps

[edit on 9/26/2009 by sad_eyed_lady]

reply to post by uaocteaou


I didnt just judge you by your avatar. I judged you by your commie remarks and then noticed that your avatar fit the bill. Peace and Love.

I think you should just come clean and admit that you are pro soviet style socialism. Lets all share like good boys and girls.

[edit on 26-9-2009 by HotDogNoBun]

Originally posted by Champagne

Well............I am not young and fresh out of college BUT myself and my mom live from pay check to pay check!! And, I believe, there are alot of others like myself out there.

Mom's so called SS will not pay for all her medical needs and I can only bring in around $1000 a monthly. There is no way in hell I could afford health insurance!! Fortunately, I have a compassionate doctor who charges very low fee for self pay clients and I can pay it out @ $20 a month. But, I only go to see her if it becomes necessary - as it did this last week.

Funny.........but because of my medical problems I am not able to get a job makiing extremely good wages - with medical coverage and all. Fact is, I would have a hard time handling more than the 30-35 hrs a week I get now!!

]Guess my 76 yr old mom will rot away, with no one helping her, when they lock my up for not being able to afford medical insurance, huh?!??!?!?

Just makes me want to spit fire..............

If your mom is on SS isn't she elgible for Medicare??? The premium is one hundred dollars a month but worth it if she needs medical - also if her income is low enough she may be eligible for state aid as well through medicade - sometimes they will pick up the premium payments for medicare and help with prescriptions - but maybe you've already checked into all that but though I should mention it just in case there's a chance.

[edit on 26-9-2009 by realshanti]

reply to post by uaocteaou
In case you didn't know, genius, the Electronic Filing System in Federal Bkcy. Ct. allows elctronic filing 24 hours a day.

So, still can't back up your blatant lies?

These are your assertions:

a bankruptcy is filed every 8 seconds because of medical bills

How many were "because of medical bills" and how do you determine "because of" and "medical bills."
("Death of breadwinner" and "loss of income" (the 2 main reasons) are not "because of medical bills.")

This is false, and you know it, or you'd have cited your sources as you did in the rest of your rant.

insurance companies deny 40% of all claims

Does this include auto, health, life, unemployment, Social Security, homeowners, renters?

I'll give you a head start. The ONLY Federal gov't-run insurance program listed, Social Security, DENIES 40% of all disability claims. The wait from application to benefits, with an average of 2 appeals, is 17 months. Many take 2 or more years.

Your second assertion is equally baseless as the first, except for the government-run health insurance program!

From what I've seen, your posts consist of either complete fabrications, empty-headed regurgitation of propaganda, and personal attacks.

How about answering a simple question?

Can you support your quoted assertions?

Quit wasting bandwidth.

jw

My understanding as to how this is suposed to work is this:

Let's take me and my family for example. We are fortunate enough to be considered 'middle class' and have wonderful insurance, two of them actually due to serving this country for many years and then continuing to work and contibrute to society. What would happen under this bill, is we would be taxed for our benefits. So we would then have additional taxes at the end of the year and these taxes would be taken and used to provide free, UNTAXED insurance for the illegal immigrants granted amnesty and those others, un-contributing members of society. In addition to this, if we are unable to pay these additional taxes we can then be fined and put in jail, for failing to fund the governments insurance plan.

This is called 'spreading the wealth'. Taking from the middle (not the top, mind you) to support the illegal/non-contributing life-styles.

Wow....I'm so glad people voted for CHANGE!!! I'm so glad that my family can work so hard and honestly just so that we can support those that don't. What a land of opportunity.

reply to post by westcoast

well, we're either low middle class, upper lower class...who knows...
but, the company I work for is a small business with less than 50 employees. With many of those employees being above retirement age.
Our health insurance is more like an old vw plan, but it probably costs the company as much as your plan costs your company because of the risks involved in having all these elderly employees.
so, I wouldn't be surprised if we get taxed for our health insurance benefits also!
I kind of think that the fact that my boss has allowed these 60,70,and 80 year olds to continue working there as saying something good about my boss's character. I suspose the crew in washington would rather he dump all these high risk people from his payrolll, just so we don't get the hades taxed out of us?

the simple fact is that between the previous administration and this administration, with a housing bust and the resulting financial chaos, there is no money! Everything that they are doing, they are either printing up the bucks in the back room edging hyperinflation closer to us or borrowing from somewhere increasing the portion of their revenues that have to be paid toward interest. And yet....they keep spending more! We don't have the money for healthcare overall, we don't have money to become "green", heck we don't even have the money to send more troops to afghanistan to reinforce the ones we have probably! And, at this point, I don't think it matters how much they overtax us, there still won't be enough money to meet their overwhelming desire to spend more money that they just don't have!!

have they ever thought that maybe if they weren't taxing the heck out of us...to save the toads, to study the fish, to build the bridges to nowhere (how about fixing the bridges about to fall!!) well, we could all afford our healthcare without their stupid programs!

I think the founding fathers might have made one teeney tiny mistake....they should never have created on branch of government who's primary duty was to spend our money!! they've just gotten so good at it, that they have found a way to spend our money, before they get it, before we have it, and well, regardless of weather we will ever have it to give them!

Obama will cleverly keep the vow of No New Taxes for the middle class health insurance...
insterad he will decrease everyones 'take home pay' and a resulting decrease of your Disposable Income -- but he'll be right, No Tax Increases


I heard yesterday on a Talk Radio show, that Obama has set policy to not allow COLA (cost of living allowences) for the years 2010-2011
for all the elderly or disabled that are on Social Security.

[[ i don't think the cuts in COLA will be enough $$ to Offset the guaranteed bonuses to be paid to the brokers at Goldman Sacs, which alone is some $16.Billion this Christmas/NewYears bonus season]]


This is not a political rant, just an observation.