Does this look like America to you?

reply to post by arcnaver


At some point we must say enough. We must, we must, we must, draw the line somewhere.

What about taxation without representation like the bailouts we were against 90 to 1? Isnt that illegal isnt that tyranical?

What about the government taking over private business? Isnt that straight fascism? Well isnt it?

I tell you, you must draw the line somewhere,it must end or America will be lost forever.

"A traitor only to tyranny I would be remiss to not make myself an enemy to a state that so blatently tramples our freedom." Adam Kokesh

Those who make peaceful protests impossible insure violent protests.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic I have to be as critical of these YouTube videos as I am of Fox and MSNBC. Because everyone has an agenda. And while we deride people for believing everything they see on TV News, I think it's important to apply the same critical thought and skepticism to the videos we see on YouTube.

Everyone has an agenda.

I cannot disagree with you on these points.

I guess that 90% of the cops must be bad apples then...and those protesters were not even armed or posing any sort of threat, it was a peaceful protest but the police made it violent, in the first video they threw that one guy to the ground and beat him...Those riot cops made it look like martial law, kind of reminds me of all those troops on the streets in the movie Cloverfield. The whole intimidation tactic with the scary voice saying things and the march really has to go...What are you charged with if you are arrested at a protest like this??

reply to post by John Matrix


No way brother am I running away,this is my country and I will stay and be the change I wish to see.
Thanks for using the link that is great that it got to one more person one more patriot on the side of we the people.

I gave that info to our local police force and they have also signed on so you are not alone,one at a time that is how we will win in 2010. If not well as Jefferson said, "I tremble for my country."

Originally posted by LadySkadi
You two are missing a critical point: you are looking at college/university students, in most cases... these are not people out trying to start a "civil war" or public unrest, they are out to voice their opinions... it wasn't meant to be a fight.

That's the problem with the whole thing. If someone isn't willing to fight for their rights, then they need to just go home. They were just half-assing it (to put it bluntly, but in context).

"Does this look like America to you?"

Yes.

Originally posted by platipus
when was police brutality not in America?

reply to post by JWH44

Before I reply to your post, let me start by introducing myself.

This is my first post although I have watched these forums for a couple years. I will be very open with you all and tell you that I work in a management position with a Federal Law Enforcement Agency. I am very open minded and also feel that there are many dangers facing our country that you all clearly see as well and discuss. I admire the spirit that you all display in your concern for our country's well-being.

That being said, I take great offense with the above-quoted post. Your sweeping generalization of all law enforcement officers as being jack-booted thugs is the kind of rhetoric that only shows how narrow-minded you are. You generalize us all to be power-hungry monsters, yet you disregard the dangers we face and the sacrifices we make to protect those that we serve. Am I saying that there aren't bad apples? Off course not; that would be ignorant on my behalf.

First let me say I do empathize with you good Sir, anger is after all a part of the grief process as well is denial. I imagine that some of the Law Enforcement Officers participating in G-20 ‘Riot Control’ will upon after reviewing their own individual and collective actions require some psychological counseling to better internalize their experiences in a healthy way if such a thing is possible.

I would like to congratulate you all the same though for finally summoning the courage to transform from a lurking observer to a full fledged posting participant even if it is simply out of anger and about yourself and your profession instead of the tragic events that occurred these past couple of days to the good citizens of Pittsburgh and some of their guests.

Because we are all brothers and friends I wish you peace in the coming days as you grapple with the scenes depicted in the video accounts of G-20 events in Pittsburgh of Law Enforcement Officers blindly following orders and using technologically advanced weapons like Sonic Cannons on American Citizens assembling on the streets that their tax dollars pay for and evoking their constitutional right to assemble and protest and having to come to the honest conclusion because of the investigative capacity of your mind that such weapons were deployed and such violence initiated by decree, the decree of an automated computerized voice stating in cadence what ever your purpose for being on the streets is in violation of the decree and as such against the law.

I am sure it is just as distasteful to you as it is to any peace loving human being to see American citizens being attacked under color of authority in a premeditated and orchestrated offensive by powers usurping their authority and applying it in such broad and unlawful and impersonal ways without any discretion nor compassion when there was no clear and present or imminent danger to Law Enforcement Personnel or Property of the life and property of citizens.
I believe it is safe to say we all, the world over share in your shame if not the self centered reaction to it as a means for personal denial and to avoid culpability and guilt through association.

Your words only make our jobs harder. You encourage confrontation with law enforcement with your remarks, then cry foul when you see the results. You can never imagine the headaches we endure to protect those that need it, yet you have the luxury of Monday-morning quarterbacking everything we do. You can spend hours replaying a video that supposedly captures someone's rights being violated without having to make a split-second life or death decision or knowing the context of the encounter. Are there videos which do show excessive use of force? Absolutely. And of course, those are the ones that are spread around the internet like wildfire. You may never see the video of the officer that is shot and killed just because of the uniform he wears; never hear the audio of that video as he pleads for his life and cries our with his dying breath. You never see the video of his supervisor having to tell his wife and children that their husband and father will never be coming home. Yet we are all monsters...

I imagine and once more empathize how difficult it must be to ‘enforce’ over 600,000 laws on the books of the Corporate Federal Government, the Incorporated State Governments, the Incorporated Counties, and the Incorporated cities and municipalities while balancing at the same time the need to protect citizens life and property as well from the dozen or so odd real crimes that have eternally plagued the human herd.

There is no arguing the virtue of the desire to protect and serve the people, but with the largest per capita prison population on the planet and over 600,000 laws courtesy of the Corporate institutions in their endless desire to litigate and control every aspect of human life and behavior for the sake of corporate efficiency whom do you serve? The people who need protected in their property and person from a dozen real acts that do them harm, like murder, theft, rape and vandalism, or the corporations looking to monetarily profit and secure their profits and maximize their profits through the employments of 600,000 confusing and vague laws, and overlapping and often competing Enforcement Agencies where performance reviews and promotions are based far less on protecting the citizens and far more on putting money to the books through enforcement activities.

Adolf Hitler doted on his dogs, and was sweet to women and children, history though does not excuse nor in many cases forgive his crimes carried out under color of authority and the laws he and his subordinates created to make legal the amoral and immoral.

Yet Hitler died a quick and relatively pain free death, while the people the citizens of the German State suffered for years and in many ways to this day not for the few good and noble deeds carried out by him and his henchmen and bonded servants but for those previously lawful acts dictated to them often by decree…
Very similar to the decree I heard being broadcast by an automated voice telling citizens it had suddenly become unlawful to be in a certain area of public commons paid for by their tax dollars regardless what their purpose for being there was or if it was unlawful, that if they failed to do so ‘less lethal’ munitions would be used on them indiscriminately with no thought to Habeus Corpus and none given.

If you want to investigate corruption Sir in regards to civil liberties and abuse of power I dare say you have your work cut out for you from the President of the United States Corporate Government, to the Governor of the Incorporated State of Pennsylvania, to the Mayor of the Incorporated City of Pittsburgh, to the Chief of Police to the Incorporated City of Pittsburgh.

Now that you have chosen to become an actual posting and fully participatory member of ATS I know I, and many others will be looking forward to your posts on your progress regarding this very serious matter.

PROVE TO US THIS CAN BE HANDLED RESPONSIBLY FROM RESPONSIBLE MEMBERS OF THE GOVERNMENT FROM WITHIN…and I can assure you that the rhetoric associated with the outraged members of the public over governmental abuses of power will lessen demonstrably in it’s severity and criticism.

Your words disgrace those officers who have given their lives to protect those that could not protect themselves.

This is deflection from the tragic events that we have all born witness to, the outrageous and criminal actions of Law Enforcement in Pittsburgh these past few days have nothing to do with the above. Criminals, wise ones anyway know not to perpetrate the crime if you can not do the time and punishment and endure the consequences of your choices and actions. Paid Law Enforcement Agents who profit through a paycheck and handsome benefits to work that opposite side of that huge coin are no different in the responsibility they must bear for their choice to protect and serve. Law enforcement work would no doubt be safer if it centered on the dozen or so true crimes as opposed to the 600,000 laws designed to protect and ensure the profits and the control of the Corporate Government.

I had to get that off my chest. I'm sure my first post, coupled with my stated profession will make me anything but popular here. I see that your post was given several stars, so obviously there are many here that feel the way you do. To all of you I can only ask this; like any other group, avoid stereotypes and generalizations and think about the farther reaching effects of you comments. While I cannot speak on behalf of the entire Federal Government, I can safely say that we are not here to harm you. I have taken an Oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America and I can tell you that we take that very seriously.

Then having witnessed a violation of the Constitution you have taken an oath to uphold and protect in the most egregious and serious manner that not only was so nefarious and evil in its intent and purpose to disenfranchise the good citizens of this nation but beyond contempt in it’s display of human indifference I hereby charge you to carry out your Oath and investigate these crimes to their fullest and seek to have all the criminals in the chain of command associated with these crimes prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Simply put Sir, stop your whining and put your money and your powers where your mouth is in regards to these statements. I and the other good citizens of the world await the results of your impending investigations and prosecutions anxiously.

Thank you for your time.

Indeed you are welcome, and thank you.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


FWIW - Two different perspectives:





wearechange.org... (following the music an audio testimony of a second we are change gathering detailed below)

www.pittnews.com...

...

the people gathered in Schenley Plaza appeared to be doing little more than playing games or standing around talking.

Police began to surround the park about a half hour into the protest. The police encircled the plazas in lines that were about two or three officers deep.

Police vehicles and school buses delivered more officers to the area.
The police brought in a Long Range Acoustic Device, which sends piercing noises or spoken messages in aimed directions.

By that point, around 200 people had gathered in the plaza and surrounding area.

Some people were heard saying, “Let’s get out of here.” Others started to scream, “This is what a photo-op looks like.”

By 11 p.m., a helicopter was hovering over Forbes Avenue near the William Pitt Union.

Officers declared the gathering an “unlawful assembly” and told people to disperse or risk going to jail.

[edit on 26/9/2009 by kosmicjack]

I am quite new to ATS and am using my friends old account, before researching the G-20 and what actually happening I had not heard of this. The psyche of the police i saw in those videos was the least to say a little disturbing. Although thinking of the saftey of people I believe that an alternitive to physical protesting would aid in a more effective way to get a point across, such as internet petitions, petitions to a govener or congressman, and getting more information out to the public by means of taking these stories to your local news papers or tv stations. Just my two cents


*sorry for mis-spellings

Originally posted by JWH44

Your words disgrace those officers who have given their lives to protect those that could not protect themselves.

Federal law enforcement is quite different than local law enforcement. When people talk about 'police' they refer to the local agencies, county, and city. Federal and state law enforcement have a larger view.

If you wish to refer to 'disgrace' of officers that have gone by, I would say that the actions of officers that violate the Constitution of the United States disgrace all those officers more than anybody that exercises his/her free speech could. To put it honestly, the police need to clean up their own ranks of bad officers, or those bad officers will give the citizens impetus to clean up their ranks for them.

reply to post by nickoli


Very valid points!

I am not saying that we should blindly follow the Government Nanny State. I agree that something is not right. I can feel it, have felt it for some years now. However, we all must do our part. Laws are there to give us freedom believe it or not. Anarchy is true slavery. In these videos, you only see what the Editor wants you to see in the context that what ever he says, is how it is. However no real context is given, you just see March of Police and running Protesters, but you do not see what was happening before that, nor do you know why they are out in the middle of the night. In my experience, people out in the middle of the night or after dark, in large groups, are out to make trouble and are up to no good.

Haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if this is a repeat. Audio interviews with witnesses

State police were calling the shots last night.

People just trying to get dinner in the oakland business district hassled, charged at and attacked.

Police effectively shut down business district costing local merchants thousands.

People headed to areas away from their dorms. They couldn't get to their dorms so they headed to a place called "The towers." Displaced students were attacked and arrested at "The towers" because they couldn't get to their dorm.

reply to post by JWH44


Thanks for the reply. Personally, I think you can be of great service and knowledge to the people on ATS. If you would be willing, I'd like to hear your thoughts on some conspiracy issues that raise concern to you? I think it would be good to hear from a person in your position. Your concerns, and things you find that is BS that goes around here, and other sites....?

Thanks.

ok i'll take a stab at this
1. at other rallys like this, there have been private businesses that have had their street side property damaged. and not all have been big corporate sites.
2. because of this, police have been tasked to take control of these streets that are being used by the protesters
3. you obviously have leaders of protest, that egg on other protesters that they have rights to disobey police instructions. this gets the protesters angry, and some confront the police in a physical manner.
4. more protesters feeling emboldened by a few, ratchet up their physical presence by throwing things, or actually pushing against the police line.
5. the police knowing that in situations like this in the past, violence has escalated quickly and police have gotten hurt.
6. fearing possible escalation, that could end up in many getting hurt or even killed, the police crank up the shock and awe, to near manic level.

reply to post by kosmicjack


Interesting Video. I notice 2 things right off. You have Protesters and then Inquisitive Idiots. Now I use that term Kindly. They just really want to see what is going on, but in so doing, they compound the problems that may and probably will happen. And they will be caught in the cross fire and add to the overall panic when it happens.

Originally posted by AllinTheMind89
Unbelievable..... I never heard ONE thing about this (though I never watch any MSM news, or television for that matter)...

While researching this, I found this piece written by a student. I found it very interesting and sickening at the same time.

Armored Police Seize University

Just for clarity this is from the first night we were all here listening. This is from Thursday night.

Originally posted by jimmyx
ok i'll take a stab at this
1. at other rallys like this, there have been private businesses that have had their street side property damaged. and not all have been big corporate sites.

And yet leaders decide that this is acceptable risk. They could hold these meetings by video conference, on an aircraft carrier, in a secluded area (like one of the many "secret" places they run to when the SHTF!) They decide to hold these meetings in urban areas where they already know there will be the desire for protesters to gather.
Even so, the presumption that there will be crimes and damage is just that, a presumption. What you are suggesting is near "thought crime" mentality, where people are treated as criminals before any actual crime is committed simply becuase it is "assumed" that there "could" be trouble.
Then there is the constitution, which states that all Americans have the right to free assembly in protest. This was written for a reason. They didn't include a clause stating "unless this poses a risk to shop windows".

Originally posted by jimmyx
2. because of this, police have been tasked to take control of these streets that are being used by the protesters

That term "control" is a worry. The Police of any state and any city are there supposedly to protect and to serve the people of that community. They are not there to control the people.
Can you not see the very basic flaw in what you have stated?

Originally posted by jimmyx
3. you obviously have leaders of protest, that egg on other protesters that they have rights to disobey police instructions. this gets the protesters angry, and some confront the police in a physical manner.

This I don't disagree with. There is a mob mentality that I have seen first-hand in a riot situation.
However, I will also state that all of the video and photographic evidence where riot police are attacking people, the Police seem to be the aggressors.
There is one video of a young girl being attacked and arrested after throwing her bike. Well, I would have too, the officer was constantly shoving and goading her while she was already walking away. His job was done, she was moving, and yet he persisted in hitting her.
What also worries me about this clip, is that the reporter on the scene openly ignores this fact. Even though he just saw it unfold, and he knows viewers would have seen the same thing, he absolutely refuses to focus on why she reacted.
That tells me that your media (at least in this case) are failing completely to be unbiased.

Originally posted by jimmyx
4. more protesters feeling emboldened by a few, ratchet up their physical presence by throwing things, or actually pushing against the police line.

Again, I don't disagree. But perhaps if there hadn't been such a menacing show of force to begin with there wouldn't be any need for such?
It is inevitable that these situations will happen if leaders insist on bringing their meetings to such locations.
Although, I have to add, this is their job. It is expected that riot police will confront angry crowds, that's what they are there for. To begin complaining that things are hitting their heavily armoured bodies is quite pathetic.

Originally posted by jimmyx
5. the police knowing that in situations like this in the past, violence has escalated quickly and police have gotten hurt.

This goes both ways. Protesters in the past have been hurt too, so why should any of them show compassion or restraint?
You wish to tarnish the actions of all by the actions of a minority, then the same can be said of the opposing side.
Despite this, please explain the footage from the University, where students on a staircase and overpass were attacked. If you watch the videos, you'll hear them talking about the "idiot" protesters below, they were doing nothing up there but watching the chaos and discussing it. Before you know it they are being treated to that same authoritarian punishment by riot police who have attacked from both sides and blocked their escape before gassing them, and surprise, they suddenly understand why those many hundreds below are fighting these aggressors.

Originally posted by jimmyx
6. fearing possible escalation, that could end up in many getting hurt or even killed, the police crank up the shock and awe, to near manic level.

I'm sorry, but I am not buying this at all. I have consistently seen evidence, actual photographic and video evidence of the Riot Police in this case escalating the violence themselves. They were the ones to march down every street, attacking and arresting people, firing sonic weaponry indiscriminately. They were the ones to attack the University campus, blocking off all exit routes and trapping masses of students within, they were the ones attacking bystanders and treating them as criminals.

Yes, I've seen a few clips of protesters in black rolling bins down the road, but this is nothing compared to riots in the UK, where the Police level was actually more reasonable, and guess what, no one died!

Quite simply, this was disproportionate, and the reactions of the officers were disgusting. The authority that issued the instructions is to blame as much as those masked, booted, Nazi cops on the ground.
The sonic weapons were certainly not needed, the constant attacking and marching was not needed, the attack on the University was not needed.
This entire thing was designed to show the people who is boss, that your constitution means nothing, that you will obey or face the wrath of "Police officers" (I use that term very loosely) more than willing to crush your rights and freedoms.

If any of you still believe that your constitution actually means anything or guarantees you any rights, you are simply deluded beyond reason. There is consistently evidence offered to show you that successive governments have been removing the very idea of the constitution for many years, through laws and actions that you seem to be almost happy with.

Not once have I seen a person who supports the Police brutality in Pittsburgh actually answer the question of constitutional rights. Why is this? Because they cannot respond to that question without admitting that the constitution was usurped.

The only way events like these are ever going to make a difference, is when "We The People" get a group, numbering in the MILLIONS, of people, all armed (legally licensed to carry) with guns, teargas, tasers, etc. and start performing mass citizens arrests on the officers who are violating the Constitution. And that has to happen on live national TV. Only then will the country realize how important it is. Until that happens, we are just wasting our time fantasizing about what the Constitution use to mean.

[edit on 9/26/09 by dalepmay]

reply to post by warrenb


We all have a right to peaceful protest (unless of course during the last dict...I mean administration where wearing a defamatory t-shirt got you arrested)
but it should be clear to you that some of these protesters are not peaceful nor patriots - many of them are anarchists who want to cause trouble. In the words of our last dear leader - the whole world is a different place after 9/11.

And with all due respect - I doubt the poster of this video knows anything about what martial law even is, let alone lived through it. Most of us don't have a clue about what real misery, violence and devastation in a country truly looks like