Does this look like America to you?

Well, there's only one good thing that will come out of this. The use of sonic weapons on protestors will only work once. Good earplugs will make them useless the next go around.

You know, what can we do against rogue cops? We can either do it peacefully like here. But in some cases they still choose to take to tear gas, some times provoked by violence from the protestors, some times not.

So, then we can take to violence, or we can take their ass whoopings "peacefully", without trouble.


I say do neither. Give them Hell, but do it in a way that doesn't cause any permanent damage. No cobblestones or dumpsters or molotov cocktails. Instead, give them hell in the form of stinkbombs, rotten eggs, water balloons filled with paint, and so on. Disgusting as hell, and a real pain in the ass, but it doesn't cause them any permanent damage.

Of course, as long as they're good boys and don't infringe on our rights, we don't need to even go that far. But imagine if they do infringe on our rights, we counter with this to make them uncomfortable, and they take to even more extreme violence. How awesome would they NOT look in media then? Not only would they be seen using excessive violence against peaceful protesters...they'd also be wearing uniforms in rainbow colors instead of all that depressing black.

reply to post by David_Reale


David, your post is sending the wrong message. You are advocating "peaceful resitance", yet you are encouraging protesters to throw stink bombs and rotten eggs at the officers? That is the sort of mentality that escalates these situations and ends up making the protesters look bad. It totally takes away from your cause. If you think throwing balloons filled with paint at a police officer is the "peaceful" way to send your message, then you are wrong two-fold. First, you just assaulted an officer in the eyes of the law. You think that's wrong? Try walking down the street and throwing a paint balloon at some joe blow on the sidewalk. You think you're going to get in trouble for that? You bet. Same thing with a police officer.

Secondly, you only make yourself look like a rebel-rouser looking to start mayhem. No one will take your message seriously, assuming you have one to begin with. The whole point of demonstration is to articulately and reasonable air your concerns to an audience that will listen. If you act like a delinquent child, who is going to listen to you. These acts are just the sort of thing that ineveitably leads to these "peaceful protests" turning into clashes with law enforcement.

reply to post by JWH44


Thank you for responding to me friend, I am glad you have chosen to take the time to do so. Over the years I have had lovers and friends in Law Enforcement ranging from Deputy Directors of the FBI to Secret Service, Customs, Border Patrol and a number of local law enforcement agencies. Having had an opportunity to familiarize myself with the unique social challenges specific to those who work in Law Enforcement if you are not here in a purely professional capacity I urge you to leave what you do for a living at the virtual door as it will have absolutely no bearing in my mind as to how I respond to you and treat you. I suggest you shed that persona and mask and let’s not make our exchanges about you or your profession. It will only deflect from the substance of the issues we discus and lead other readers to possibly predetermine a bias on your part. You clearly aren’t ready to deal internally or externally with the full ramifications to you and others regarding your chosen profession, so let’s just keep your profession out of it shall we.

I am a human being and you are a human being, created equal imbibed and embodied with similar gifts and faults.

I can tell you as a person born in Pittsburgh I am ashamed at what has happened there regarding these events. I can tell you as a person born in the United States I am equally ashamed of many things in regards to our government and how the people of this nation respond to actions undertaken by our government in the people’s name.

If you aren’t suffering from this, well I suggest a vacation and some personal reflection and a close look at the world we live in and the nation we live in with a critical eye without any colored glasses on or predispositions aimed at justifying or qualifying that which is not justifiable or just for any civilized human being who places an emphasis on human.

Your advice while sage is the brand of thinking that brings us so many corrupt representatives in to government. We applaud the things that they openly say and then reel and suffer from the predispositions and agendas that they do not openly declare. Certainly as someone in management you can appreciate the importance of logistics in any undertaking. Are you intimately familiar with the path to power? Most people are not, they imagine that some well intentioned candidate appears on the scene in some humble grassroots fashion, picks up supporters through pressing flesh, listening to potential constituents and speaking directly to them as individuals and groups garnering their support in votes, and contributions of money and time that at some point the media notices who the candidate is and begins to follow them and that at some point as they continue to be exposed to the public the money for the adds keeps rolling in. That come Election Day people select from a slate of honest and well intentioned candidates.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Most (approximately 95%) candidates are pre-selected by a small handful of powerful attorneys acting in part as proxies for powerful corporate interests that maintain illegal monopolies through a spider web of corporations. These selecting attorneys are typically from ‘old money’ families, who have been in the country from the Mayflower or shortly before or right after the Revolutionary War. They specialize in mergers and acquisitions, in other words the highly lucrative art of corporate theft as they help one powerful corporation merge it’s operations with another less powerful corporation often divesting both entities underperforming assets in the process often sticking the little common shareholder or employee with the burden of these consolidations while carefully skirting anti-trust laws. A sizeable portion of the 600,000 some odd laws on the books of the unconstitutional corporate/military dictatorship that runs the government are to lawfully facilitate these amoral thefts and building of illegal monopolies and the oligarchs have a vested and compelling interest to subvert the law making process for this reason and end. They preselect candidates on both sides of the left/right aisle, fund the preferred one better, feed them better issues to run on, arrange through their corporate associates typically through fellow members of old money prestigious gentlemen’s clubs the media and advertising, while wiring them in to existing political action committees and other social networking groups already under their control to begin promoting their candidacy. They spend big money to do this; they put a lot of thought and effort into this because they do not feel it is wise or in their vested interest to let the citizens select candidates that aren’t beholden to them and familiar with their agenda and ready to play ball. This handful of attorneys represents and are members of the mythical but not fictional Powers that Be.

Independent candidates are either simply blocked out of media coverage, targeted by smear campaigns or in the event number one and two don’t work ultimately courted through third parties to be brought on board. There are a few districts where they are unable to wield this influence which is irrelevant to them because they can in the majority of districts. Once in office they spend a lot of time effort and money to groom those with the greatest aptitude towards higher office. Somewhere right now sitting on the House or Senate floor is the man or woman they know will be President in 2016, and the Head of the SEC, and the Head of the FDA, and the Head of HEW, etc., etc. that these moneyed interests know will be appointed to head those agencies on their behalf because they control the whole process by their own usurped power to appoint. While these men and their cohorts and associates and partners control the Media and the Agency Heads of Government exactly how do you envision anything could change through the electoral process when this is how the electoral process works? Pre-selected candidates, campaigns run by a handful of expensive and all important consulting firms that specialize in getting candidates elected to office, powerful existing political action committees to aide them, and no limit to funds and media exposure are suddenly going to start loosing their slickly marketed appeal to voters educated to the functionally illiterate level and below?
By a cadre of non-existent honest candidates ill-equipped and prepared to run an underfunded campaign on an uneven playing field totally stacked against them?

You might as well have said, look friend forget about the way the world is run, deal with it!

In many ways as defeating as that last statement is the reality is law enforcement truly can not penetrate this cabal of powerful and moneyed criminals because they lack the ability to insert them selves into that cloistered and tight nit world of the pedigreed and well heeled. The clubs that these people meet at and conduct most of their business are hard to join and even the majority of people who would like to, that are capable of paying the often hundreds of thousands of dollars of annual membership fees are denied membership because they lack the pedigree of old world lineage and wealth required for admittance to the membership body. It would be nearly impossible for a member of law enforcement to penetrate this realm because of it, and because so many of the members are of the most prestigious type of high and fine upstanding reputation no judge in the world is going to authorize the surveillance measures that law enforcement can use on other racketeering and criminal enterprises.

So the truth is friend, the system can not be changed from within; the system itself can not be penetrated to change from within.

This is simply an honest observation and is not an advocacy for breaking any law or treason, or any method to otherwise incite or promote a lawless or illegal or amoral approach to seeking a remedy to that which is.

Personally I have advised any and all too simply write there representatives demanding inquiries into the matter in Pittsburgh and that all responsible parties be charged and prosecuted. I have already written my representatives and I already expect some Patriot Act advocacy computerized form letter reply promoting the necessity and virtue of such actions.

What happens come a day if it should ever come when I find the streets in my town blocked in a similar way for a similar purpose by Law Enforcement I truly can’t say!

I know you have to do some damage control and put your ears out and try to put a lid on this situation but the reality is that what you advocate personally as a solution is no solution at all.




[edit on 27/9/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Sir, I will certainly admit that you are an eloquent speaker that has a firm grasp on your opinions. I'm happy that we have, mostly, moved away from you accusing me of spin control and denial. Personally, I take it as a compliment that my mere presence here has inspired you to put into words such lengthy and thought out ideas. However, let's just cut to the chase.

You have clearly pointed out so much of what is wrong with our society. I agree with some of you points. Not all, but most, I will admit. My question to you is, quite simply, what is your proposed solution? You are quick to shoot down others' ideas, but you, as far as I have read, have yet to propose some constructive path of action that will SOLVE these problems. Everyone loves to point out what is wrong with everyone else, but what good is that if you don't have ideas on how to fix it.

Maybe you do and you just haven't gotten into that. If that is the case, I would love to hear your ideas. As I've said, you seem to be an educated individual and I would hate to think that all of that intellect is wasted on pointing fingers and saying, however eloquently, how screwed up everything around you is without offering some solution. So Sir, I ask you: What is YOUR solution to our woes?

Anxiously awaiting your reply.
JW

reply to post by JWH44


Read again, read right.

I said, what we can do against ROGUE cops. Are you a rogue cop? If not, you won't get re-painted. If you are, then you started the fight, and you'll prefer to get repainted rather than get a cobblestone in the head, don't you? Either way, you just got what you deserved, 'cuz you started it. I don't advocate throwing balloons filled with paint at riot cops unless THEY start the fighting, unless THEY use agent provocateurs, unless THEY prevent US from demonstrating wherever we damn well please as is our inalienable right. If they do, THEN I advocate repainting them, because they deserve it, and because they started it.

I don't respect police badges, I respect people, and only when they earn that respect. The riot police in these videos, for example, have not earned my respect, and they more than well deserve a barrage of stink bombs. Not cobblestones, though - it'd be a shame to waste good cobblestones on cockroaches like them.

Originally posted by SpacePunk
Well, there's only one good thing that will come out of this. The use of sonic weapons on protestors will only work once. Good earplugs will make them useless the next go around.

So they bring out the microwave guns.

They will always be able to forcefully make people split up unless people are willing to actually fight them.

These videos are truly disturbing. At some point people must unite against the current development. The government and the police riot gear are there to fight organized crime gangs. They are now using it against a civilian population.


[edit on 27-9-2009 by Copernicus]

reply to post by David_Reale


I read you loud and clear. What I'm saying is that, by pushing back in that manner, what have you accomplished? You just lowered yourself to the ROGUE cop's level. Is that what you want? To escalate a bad situation to a worse one? If rights are genuinely infringed upon, then take action in the form of reporting, posting, uncovering, whatever you want to call it, the TRUTH. I think we can all see that there are cameras EVERYWHERE this day and age. If these actions are genuinely and clearly caught on camera, there won't be an end to the line of lawyers that will line up to take your case, probably for free, just to make a name for themselves if nothing else.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

reply to post by JWH44

Honestly my friend I have no solution. I am but a humble man of simple and limited means ill equipped to tackle the woes of the world.

I too often am critical of those who feel some virtue in looking at their watch and proclaiming the train is late yet have no earthly idea of the logistical challenge of running a train on time.

During these troubling days many people will talk about or advocate revolution and I personally do not think anything will be resolved through a forced upheaval of the current system as nothing was really resolved back in 1776. Ultimately the same moneyed interests just ended up in control as had been in control and typically this is the result of any revolution. Meet the new boss, the same as the old boss.

I live by a simple code of ‘do no harm’. Most people do not though and if one looks at the state of the world today and the headlines throughout the world and what the political leaders are advocating for often with the great support or their constituents and populations its almost like people wake up every morning and say “What really stupid, costly, self defeating thing can I advocate or do today to make life worse”. They are well intentioned, yet for the most part they are well intentioned fools.

I too am a well intentioned fool as is so often the case in life “The more I know the less I understand”.

Angry, frightened and bitter people will of course more and more advocate revolution simply in part because of their imagined fears which most fears are imagined, and simply because it’s a concept in their frame of reference and understanding.

Revolution will cause nothing good to happen but open another door to problems that because of the ill informed nature of the people that would advocate it and fight it simply would be beyond their capacity to foresee or deal with suddenly…in other words, now you have to make the train run on time, you have to deal with our international creditors and binding legal treaties and accords, now you have to make sure hundreds of millions of people get fed, clothed and have economic opportunities.

The nation and the world is ripe for a change but it has to be an evolutionary change friend, and evolutionary change that changes people from within in their willingness and desire to “Do no harm”.

Events indicate we are on the cusp of either evolutionary change or devolutionary change depending on whether the “Might makes right” milieu can control events and circumstance in the later or if the “Do no harm” milieu can cause a spontaneous outburst of a radical change in perception and thinking away from the “Might makes right” mentality.

This is not something I have the power to influence or influence broadly the “Do no harm” concept is just something I live my life by. I drive a bicycle not a car not because of poverty but because my bicycle does no harm.

Evolution happens spontaneously as a response to external pressures and events, revolution happens in a premeditated fashion as a desire to control and or defeat external pressures and events.

I advocate evolution. I do not believe revolution is effective. I try to govern every action I undertake based on its potential to do harm. Do I harm an American worker buying a Chinese made product at Wal-Mart? Yes I do, so no I don’t, do I harm the environment and enrich the corporate oligarchs if I drive a car? Yes I do, so no I don’t, I look for ways to lessen the parasitical and destructive nature of the human condition in an evolutionary not revolutionary way.

I seek to evolve not to revolve!

I can’t change the world my friend, but I can change myself each and every day I put thought and energy and discipline in to it, and enough of us feel so inclined the world will evolve to be a far kinder and gentler place where people will stop justifying and looking for justification for the harm they do and instead focus on trying to do no harm.

Do no harm my friend, do no harm.



[edit on 27/9/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by JWH44


Oh really? So I'm going to let the cops beat me up, crawl out of there (if I'm lucky) with a few broken bones and bruises, and then go find me a lawyer? I don't think so. I've seen too many court cases where the small man is stepped on by the Guv, the police, the corporations, take your pick, to trust that an entire army of riot police like in these videos would get fired or even reprimanded for their actions.

I don't advocate peaceful resistance. I'm not the kind of person who lies down and takes a beating without protest. The way I see it, they can count themselves lucky they get away with being repainted. In fact, if I ever find myself in such a situation, they would probably count themselves lucky if they got away with a kick to the family jewels. If they start a fight, they better be damned ready to finish it.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler



Well, I admire your honesty. And your concern for your fellow man. We all play a part in this great play we call life. As you said, all we can really do is be as responsible as we can and take care of our own little corner the stage. I think that is where we often get off track. We become so concerned with telling others how they are not doing their job right that we neglect our own. The end result, nothing gets done right and everyone suffers.

That being said, I would like to offer this observation to you; as I said before, you are an eloquent speaker. Your words have an impact on people. That is clear. What is important to note about that is to realize the power of words. They can inspire people. They can also excite and inflame people. You have their attention; you have enlightened them to some of the shortcomings of the world. In doing so, you elicit action. When confronted with these words describing these problems, people want to do something about it. They are elevated to an excited state that demands action. Yet, by offering no real course of action, you leave them without direction. The result? With no given or suggested means to deal with this new emotion, they seek some form of action to act upon this emotion. Without guidance, this often leads down the wrong path. They take matters into their own hands. Often in an unorganized fashion which leads to more confusion and, in the worst of cases, violence.

Please don't take this as a shot at you. Again, I admire your opinions and your ability to put them into powerful words. But don't underestimate how far reaching the ripples of those words can reach.

As always, best regards,
JW

reply to post by David_Reale



Honestly, if you are getting physically dealt with by a law enforcement officer, then you physically resisted in some way. Argue that all you want, but if you had complied, then you walk away with no injuries and walk right into that lawyers office with your case. Do you have to agree with what they asked you to do? I guess not. But then you have a legal or administrative recourse to take after the fact. With no bruises. Pick your battles. If a ROGUE cop wants you to do something that you don't think you should have to do, and you end up fighting him, you are going to lose and lend credence to his side of the story.

Am I saying cops are right all the time? No, but you have to pick your battles and fight for your rights in a smart way. I'll say it once more; don't lower yourself to their level and you'll have a better edge after the fact.

Maybe so, but then we have the little fact that I'm innocent, and don't feel like spending any time in the jail with God knows what kind of criminals, until the time when the cops see it fit to release me. So, yeah. I'm going to resist arrest. Being a cop don't give them the right to drag me away when I haven't done anything wrong. That I am later released and can go to a lawyer and sue their asses off don't change the fact my rights were violated, and neither will my being awarded money from suing them in a court of law, and that's only IF I'm successful (I don't have a lot of faith in my country's system of law.)

Because I have no intentions of letting them wrong me in the first place. That may be stubborn of me, it may be stupid, and it may be legal suicide in a court of law. They may call it "resisting arrest" or "assaulting an officer", but it's my way of doing things, and if they try to drag me off to jail, they better be prepared to deal with that. It might get me in a heck of a lot of trouble afterwards, and it may, in some eyes, lower me to their level, but, meh, to each their own.

As I said, I'm not much for peaceful resistance, not when I'm being hammered on with police batons.

reply to post by warrenb

I hear alot of talk about the rights of citizens of this country and no action. I think its about time that the jackbooted thugs get a refresher course in the second amendment. Any takers?

reply to post by JWH44


Once more my friend thank you for taking the time to reply, presently people are angry, disturbed and frightened for good reason in this particular case. We as Americans and humans I believe it is safe to say all ultimately aspire to higher standards than those we have witnessed.

Yes in the populace there are always going to be those once again with good cause who gravitate towards and find appeal in the lowest possible common denominator. That though is to be expected and is mute to the extent that by alternative we as members of the populace look towards authority to aspire towards the highest possible common denominator.

You yourself are trying as many of us do, but what has so angered the populace is that utter disappointment of seeing those who they expect and rely upon to aspire to the highest possible common denominator those we place our trust in to protect and serve us in our property and person, instead behave in a manner most typically reserved and seen in the lowest possible common denominator.

The shock of this affects us all who observe and contemplate these things to varying degrees and ends.

Emotions may flare for a time as people internalize these events and come to terms with how it really affects their sense of self, security, and over all well being and the portents such events might then bear on their future in regards to all of these things.

I as always both publicly and privately urge people to respond and not to react. Responses are formed off of a careful and detached academic and analytical review of the facts. Reactions are based on simple emotional reflexes like anger, fear, lust and other compulsive feelings that affect the human nervous system.

I never advocate violence as a solution nor any form of confrontational behavior as all parties loose in confrontation.

A person convinced against their will is a person who remains unconvinced. A person cowered or intimidated through violence, threat of violence, humiliation or threat of humiliation is only as cowered and subdued by these things as long as they are in play against them or to the point they gain the strength or mental predisposition to rebel and lash out against them.

I think you can agree based on the wisdom and logic in the above statement the true mistake that the Law Enforcement Authorities made in their own reactions which it is kind to describe them as reactions as they were more likely premeditated responses.

Yes it is true that the pen is mightier than the sword and people look for leaders and direction and those that can validate them and give life and comfort to their hopes and fears.

I will not pretend this to be otherwise or the potential impact my words can have on others, all I can do is to illustrate through the record of my own written words left here for posterity for all to see, that I advocate no harm and rational and logical responses to that which plagues the human condition.

Am I cognizant of the inherent potential for both good and harm in my words you ask? Surely I am as I have sought to both reassure you and others that calm will prevail and that logic will prevail and we will find a way to evolve peacefully and not revolve in counter productive and damaging ways.

Ultimately it will be up to the government to decide whether it can afford to still promote free speech in an atmosphere of increasingly dictatorial and autocratic government and seek to curb or restrict or deny access to venues that promote free speech or to imprison, penalize in other ways or execute those that speak out to evolution.

These are all things that are beyond my control. What is in my control is to find peace in my heart, resolve in my actions, self discipline in them, and purpose behind them.

My purpose is clear, to do no harm, to not support those that would do harm, to evolve, not to revolve or devolve.

Should that represent an inherent danger to those who see no profit or gain or security in such a message then I humbly have but one life to lay down for my message of love, and tolerance, and mutual understanding and fostering a truly more productive and supportive and kinder world for us all to live in.

All dreams fade as do nightmares in time. I too shall pass at some point as shall we all.

For now though my friend, I am what I am.


[edit on 27/9/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by Champagne


I don't know what the riot police thought they were protecting, it's ironic that they claimed to be moving on a unlawful (notice: NOT illegal, but unlawful, there'a difference) gathering, when in fact, they were the unlawful AND illegal gathering!

Either the people have a legal and lawful right to peacefully protest and speak out against tyranny as they see it, or they don't.

For the police to claim to be serving and upholding the law, by moving peaceful citizens who have a legal and lawful right to be there is absurd.

I hear you..but hear this; all of you that are talking or thinking about violence or armed conflict.

We all agree that things are going downhill and fast.

We more or less agree, that the average citizen has zero power against TPTB..elections can be rigged, the right person inserted here and there, protests, even peaceful protests are meeting this kind of unreal, robocop response.

OK..don't you think they know all this?, Don't you think they would expect some citizens to turn violent? They might be murdering meglamaniacal bastards, but they are NOT stupid. Don't you be either. Be smart.

What give TPTB their power? Their 'pull'? We do. We do it through giving them money. Lot's of it.

Don't give them what they need to survive. Take away the cash, you take away the power.



[edit on 27/9/2009 by spikey]

Two day riot? No way. There was no rioting here. What the press is calling riots is when the cops start beating and gassing demonstrators and students.
the MARTIAL LAW claim, as far as I know, is coming from the fact that anyone on the Pitt Campus who wasn't locked in there dorm room with windows closed was subject to gassing, beating, spraying, and arrest. Is that technically martial law? Probably not, but I can see why one would be tempted to say that.
I would agree that this event was very tame. The demonstrators were VERY well behaved. So well behaved that a lot of locals now take what they had to say much more seriously than they did before all this happened.

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
I'm against this whole summit as the next guy and completely disgusted by the police action.


However. I wouldn't say this is MARTIAL LAW. This was a two day riot that had severe results. This was expected. And if anything, Pittsburgh's riots were the tamest I've ever seen compared to others such as:

Iran protests and riots a few months back
G8 protests in Germany
1999 Riots in Seattle.
so on, so on.

Ummm...do you know how many universities and colleges are in the area? Harvard grads? Maybe not. Carnegie Mellon and University of Pittsburgh grads? Quite a few.

Originally posted by jsobecky



And, not to put down any of our members from that area, it is populated by...well...not too many Harvard graduates.

I know exactly where that is, mostly young families and older couples live there. One of the things that upset me so much about the events of Thursday afternoon is that the police were using gas and the sonic cannons in a VERY residential area. Far more homeowners suffered from the effects of the LRAD than 'dangerous anarchists'.
reply to post by kosmicjack

Originally posted by JWH44
reply to post by David_Reale

 

I read you loud and clear. What I'm saying is that, by pushing back in that manner, what have you accomplished? You just lowered yourself to the ROGUE cop's level. Is that what you want? To escalate a bad situation to a worse one? If rights are genuinely infringed upon, then take action in the form of reporting, posting, uncovering, whatever you want to call it, the TRUTH. I think we can all see that there are cameras EVERYWHERE this day and age. If these actions are genuinely and clearly caught on camera, there won't be an end to the line of lawyers that will line up to take your case, probably for free, just to make a name for themselves if nothing else.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

How can you effect change in a system already corrupt and well on its way to tyranny? When a Cobra is poised to attack you do you sit there and debate with it or do you run or try to kill it with something before more appear? All this talk of peaceful protest just sickens me to no end and makes you no better than sheep. Fine. Sit there and try to reason with the Cobra all you want. Try to work at getting to the truth in a corrupt system.