reply to post by Maddogkull
That's impossible to know for sure the exact date. The fact that Nat Geo made a documentary about it doesnt mean "this is it". Not to mention that
sometimes documentaries from the same companies about the same subjects tend to conclude on different points..
And btw, Giza cannot be 2470 years old, because of the corrosion evidence.
The Giza Pyramids were made in 2470 says new evidence. , page 4
privacy
reply posted on 12-10-2009 @ 02:14 AM by Sargoth
Some Christian sects go further and think the Earth itself is 6000 yrs. old. It's called Creationism. They want it taught in schools along with
Evolution.
Could you show an article that specifies what percentage of Egyptologists are Muslims and other religions?
The Sphinx enclosure rain weathering is evidence. Strong evidence that you can't refute. If you can show us any credible evidence that disproves it, please do. We would all love to see it. It means Khufu didn't build the Sphinx. He just repaired it.
I guess that means hairy barbarians made it using your peer reviewed Orthodox logic.
www.answerbag.com...
Wayne Herschel's evidence is impressive.
thehiddenrecords.com...
[edit on 12-10-2009 by Sargoth]
Could you show an article that specifies what percentage of Egyptologists are Muslims and other religions?
The Sphinx enclosure rain weathering is evidence. Strong evidence that you can't refute. If you can show us any credible evidence that disproves it, please do. We would all love to see it. It means Khufu didn't build the Sphinx. He just repaired it.
I guess that means hairy barbarians made it using your peer reviewed Orthodox logic.
www.answerbag.com...
Wayne Herschel's evidence is impressive.
thehiddenrecords.com...
[edit on 12-10-2009 by Sargoth]
reply posted on 12-10-2009 @ 04:25 AM by St Udio
www.pbs.org...
a earlier date like 3,200 BCE would factor in the folklore-tradition that
there are Biblical references to building 2 towers (pyramids ?) so as to preserve a history of peoples/cultures before a catastrophe (the later Flood)
and since the Flood is dated at near 2348 BCE; www.creationtips.com...
the reason i bring the Flood event into the picture is because the Pyramid chambers would show evidence of water penetration if built before the flood - unless there never was a catastrophe of the scale noted in Gilgamesh or the Noah accounts.
Still, the earlier 3200 BC date for the start of the many types of Pyramids in Egypt seems reasonable because pyramid building was popular for hundreds (if not a 1,000) years & spanned several dynasties....
perhaps ending at the Flood era -> which coincides with your thread date of 2470 BCE
Hawass, mentioned in reply posts... states that Egypt was a civilized early empire somewhere near ~5000 BC (ergo Egypt predates the ancient China first-emporer Qin Shi Huang ~200 BCE by a whole Mayan calender 'great cycle')
see; 90 minute movie at, www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KpnxQjzcv8
The history books generally point to 3200 B.C. as the approximate date when the pyramid of Khufu was under construction.
a earlier date like 3,200 BCE would factor in the folklore-tradition that
there are Biblical references to building 2 towers (pyramids ?) so as to preserve a history of peoples/cultures before a catastrophe (the later Flood)
and since the Flood is dated at near 2348 BCE; www.creationtips.com...
the worldwide flood of Noah's time was around 2348 BC ...
Quick-read this article:
According to the Jewish historian Josephus, Irish archbishop and chronologist James Ussher, Bible historians and most conservative Christian scholars, the Flood of Noah's time occurred between 2500 BC and 2300 BC..
the reason i bring the Flood event into the picture is because the Pyramid chambers would show evidence of water penetration if built before the flood - unless there never was a catastrophe of the scale noted in Gilgamesh or the Noah accounts.
Still, the earlier 3200 BC date for the start of the many types of Pyramids in Egypt seems reasonable because pyramid building was popular for hundreds (if not a 1,000) years & spanned several dynasties....
perhaps ending at the Flood era -> which coincides with your thread date of 2470 BCE
Hawass, mentioned in reply posts... states that Egypt was a civilized early empire somewhere near ~5000 BC (ergo Egypt predates the ancient China first-emporer Qin Shi Huang ~200 BCE by a whole Mayan calender 'great cycle')
see; 90 minute movie at, www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KpnxQjzcv8
reply posted on 12-10-2009 @ 04:28 AM by Hanslune
Could you show an article that specifies what percentage of Egyptologists are Muslims and other religions?
Hans: I've never seen such a report, nor would I expect such a document every to be published but as many Egyptologists aren't Egyptian and come from Europe, Asia and the Americas I'd suspect they aren't Muslim. I've also noted a large percentage of Egyptian Egyptologists are Copts. If you are truly interested in it you could ask that question at the Hall of Ma'at where there are Egyptologists
The Sphinx enclosure rain weathering is evidence.
Hans: Yes it is and it is disputed in its interpretation.
Strong evidence that you can't refute.
Hans: Sure lots of people have come up with alternative ways the damage can be done. Its still being discussed and debated within Geology. This debate has been going on since the 1950s.
If you can show us any credible evidence that disproves it, please do.
Here you go, but you seem to be having difficulty with the "in debate" and "no concensus" reached part of this discussion within geology
Sphinx debate
This is space within the Hall of Ma'at were documents about the sphinx are kept, scroll down and you'll see about 8 of them. There are discussions pro and con.
It means Khufu didn't build the Sphinx.
Hans: Well we agree. It probably means somebody just modified an existing scuplture into the Sphnix, the nob of rock that is the head probably was something else at one time. Also most Egyptologist hold to the idea that Khafre built it not Khufu. However there are alternative ideas to that too.
He just repaired it.
Hans: As noted above its possible he modified it which may have involved repairing.
I guess that means hairy barbarians made it using your peer reviewed Orthodox logic.
Hans: No there were neolithic farmers or villages in the area, depending on how old you think the Sphinx is -people who would later become the Egyptians. There is no conclusive evidence they built or modified anything on the Giza plateau at this time.
So I guess by YOUR lack of logic it was spacemen or what exactly? If it was built earlier than presently supposed it becomes another accomplishment of the Ancient Egyptians.
[edit on 12/10/09 by Hanslune]
reply posted on 12-10-2009 @ 01:28 PM by Sargoth
Hans- I've never seen such a report.
In other words you are guessing when you say most Egyptologists aren't Muslim. Since you made the assertion, it's up to you to substantiate it. If you can't then just say so. Why didn't you say it was just your opinion.
The most important point is that Zahi Hawass, who controls who gets to study the monuments, is a devout Muslim who rules with an iron fist according to the articles I've read.
Hans-you think spacemen made it.
Nope, I never said Ets had anything to do with it.
I believe like so many others that Thoth/Hermes/Enoch, who was supposedly from Atlantis originally, was the designer of many megalithic structures around the world. The Minoans were Atlantean colonists. The pre-flood humans weren't ordinary humans like you or I. According to Sheldan Nidle's sources, humans first came to Earth about 1-2 million yrs. ago, and were like the Greek gods. He calls them Galactic Humans. They were 7-12 ft. tall, fully psychic, multi-dimensional beings. Man's physical body originated in the Vega star system 6 million yrs. ago, then spread out to the Pleiades, Sirius, and other stars. They have been squabbling over Earth ever since.
The Atlantean Elites created a slave race of beings, and after the accidental destruction of Atlantis, many Elites left Earth and became the Annunaki, took over Nibiru and have been causing genocidal mayhem up to about the 1990s. Mankind today is the remnant of that slave race. Our DNA was originally 12 strands. Now it's 2 active and the rest shrunk down to 1 dormant strand. All this is in Nidle's book. It's my opinion, that his material is the closest to the truth, I'm not saying it's proven facts.
I just found some interesting articles which they say confirms Cayce's
dates on Atlantean migrations and other supportive data. Read it and weep.
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...
www.edgarcayce.org...
www.paoweb.com... (a Nidle update, gives you a taste of Sirian knowledge)
www.bethcoleman.net...
[edit on 12-10-2009 by Sargoth]
In other words you are guessing when you say most Egyptologists aren't Muslim. Since you made the assertion, it's up to you to substantiate it. If you can't then just say so. Why didn't you say it was just your opinion.
The most important point is that Zahi Hawass, who controls who gets to study the monuments, is a devout Muslim who rules with an iron fist according to the articles I've read.
Hans-you think spacemen made it.
Nope, I never said Ets had anything to do with it.
I believe like so many others that Thoth/Hermes/Enoch, who was supposedly from Atlantis originally, was the designer of many megalithic structures around the world. The Minoans were Atlantean colonists. The pre-flood humans weren't ordinary humans like you or I. According to Sheldan Nidle's sources, humans first came to Earth about 1-2 million yrs. ago, and were like the Greek gods. He calls them Galactic Humans. They were 7-12 ft. tall, fully psychic, multi-dimensional beings. Man's physical body originated in the Vega star system 6 million yrs. ago, then spread out to the Pleiades, Sirius, and other stars. They have been squabbling over Earth ever since.
The Atlantean Elites created a slave race of beings, and after the accidental destruction of Atlantis, many Elites left Earth and became the Annunaki, took over Nibiru and have been causing genocidal mayhem up to about the 1990s. Mankind today is the remnant of that slave race. Our DNA was originally 12 strands. Now it's 2 active and the rest shrunk down to 1 dormant strand. All this is in Nidle's book. It's my opinion, that his material is the closest to the truth, I'm not saying it's proven facts.
I just found some interesting articles which they say confirms Cayce's
dates on Atlantean migrations and other supportive data. Read it and weep.
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...
www.edgarcayce.org...
www.paoweb.com... (a Nidle update, gives you a taste of Sirian knowledge)
www.bethcoleman.net...
[edit on 12-10-2009 by Sargoth]
reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 10:22 PM by Sargoth
I finally found proof that the major Giza pyramids were built before Khufu. He says so himself, that only restored them.
some info. from the article.
Actually, we have the testament of Pharaoh Khufu himself that he only did repair work on the Great Pyramid. The Inventory Stele, found in 1857 by Auguste Mariette just to the east of the Pyramid, dates to about 1500 B.C., but according to Maspero and other experts, shows evidence of having been copied from a far older stele contemporaneous with the Fourth Dynasty. In the Stele, Khufu himself tells of his discoveries made while clearing away the sands from the Pyramid and Sphinx. He dedicated the account to Isis, who he called the "Mistress of the Western Mountain," "Mistress of the Pyramid," and identified the Pyramid itself as the "House of Isis."
The Stele describes how Pharaoh Khufu, "gave to her (Isis) an offering anew, and he built again (to restore, renovate, reconstruct) her temple of stone." From there, the Pharaoh inspected the Sphinx, according to the text, and related the story of how in his time both the monument and a nearby sycamore tree had been struck by lightning. The bolt had knocked off part of the headdress of the Sphinx, which Khufu carefully restored. Egyptologist Selim Hassan, who dug out the Sphinx from the surrounding sands in the 1930's, observed there is indeed evidence that portions of the Sphinx were damaged by lightning, and the mark of ancient repairs is very apparent. Also, he noted, sycamore trees once grew to the south of the monument, which had been dated to a great age.
The Stele then ends with the story of how Khufu built small pyramids for himself and his daughters, wife and family, next to the Great Pyramid. Today, the ruins of three small pyramids are indeed situated on the east side of the monument. Archaeologists have found independent evidence that the southernmost of the three small pyramids flanking the Great Pyramid was in fact dedicated to Henutsen, a wife of Khufu. Everything in the inscription thus matches the known facts. If these facts can be believed as true, then the additional information that Khufu was only a restorer of the Great Pyramid and not its builder, must also be treated as historically true.
ANCIENT LEGENDS AND MODERN RESEARCH CONFIRM EACH OTHER
When we look at mythic history for the story of the origins of the Great Pyramid, we discover that the monument was not attributed to any Pharaoh, but was the product of the genius and higher learning of the Gods of Old. Time and time again, from the Roman Marcellinus to the Coptic Al Masudi and the Arab Ibn Abd Alhokim, the recounters of the ancient legends tell how the Pyramid was built to preserve the knowledge of a magnificent civilization from destruction by a Flood, and that it was this Flood which brought the Age of the Gods to its tragic end. The various Chronologies of Legendary Rulers place a minimum date for the Age of the Gods as circa 10,000 B.C. This is the time frame Plato, in his Timaeus and Critias, ascribed the destruction of Atlantis. And it is also this date, as can be proven in modern scientific studies, which was highlighted by major climatic, geologic and geomagnetic disturbances, accompanied by massive paleo-biological extinctions in the planet, marking the division point between the Ice Age and the Present Era.
In Egypt, geologists examining the fossil record have found that the combined effect of melting glaciers in the Mountains of the Moon, plus a sharp rise in precipitation levels in Central Africa, caused the Nile river circa 10,000 B.C. to swell in size a thousandfold, eroding away cliff walls miles from its present banks, and washing out its entire valley throughout the length of Egypt. At the same time, as the Mediterranean Sea began to fill and rise due to higher ocean levels from melting northern glaciers, its waters for a brief period also flooded the lower Nile valley. These, geologists are certain, are the last major flood events in Egypt’s fossil history, before the sea retreated and the Nile settled down to today’s relatively peaceful, winding flow. Yet, knowing this, geologists are hard pressed to explain why there existed a fourteen-foot layer of silt sediment around the base of the Pyramid, a layer which also contained many seashells, and the fossil of a sea cow, all of which were dated by radiocarbon methods to 11,600 B.P. (Before Present) plus or minus 300 years.
Legends and records likewise speak of the fact that, before the Arabs removed the Pyramid’s outer casing stones, one could see water marks on the stones halfway up the Pyramid’s height, in about the 240-foot level, which would be 400 feet above the present Nile level. The medieval Arab historian Al Biruni, writing in his treatise The Chronology of Ancient Nations, noted: "The Persians and the great mass of Magians relate that the inhabitants of the west, when they were warned by their sages, constructed buildings of the King and the Giza Pyramids. The traces of the water of the Deluge and the effects of the waves are still visible on these pyramids halfway up, above which the water did not rise." Add to this the observation made when the Pyramid was first opened, that incrustations of salt an inch thick were found inside. Most of this salt is natural exudation from the chambered rock wall, but chemical analysis also shows some of the salt has a mineral content consistent with salt from the sea. Thus, during the prehistoric Flood, when waters surrounded the Great Pyramid, the known and unknown entrances leaked, allowing seawater into the interior, which later evaporated and left the salts behind. The locations where the salts are found are consistent with the monument having been submerged half-way up its height.
If the floodings of 10,000 B.C. were the last major catastrophic water events in Egypt, and the Pyramid exhibits signs of having been subjected to them, it means the Pyramid must date from a period before the flooding occurred.
Though most Egyptologists today have yet to accept such a necessary "radical" revision of their dating of the Pyramid, there have been other discoveries that have forced them to at least realize that their preconceived theories of any early Dynastic age for the structure is no longer tenable.
www.atlantisrising.com...
[edit on 16-10-2009 by Sargoth]
some info. from the article.
Actually, we have the testament of Pharaoh Khufu himself that he only did repair work on the Great Pyramid. The Inventory Stele, found in 1857 by Auguste Mariette just to the east of the Pyramid, dates to about 1500 B.C., but according to Maspero and other experts, shows evidence of having been copied from a far older stele contemporaneous with the Fourth Dynasty. In the Stele, Khufu himself tells of his discoveries made while clearing away the sands from the Pyramid and Sphinx. He dedicated the account to Isis, who he called the "Mistress of the Western Mountain," "Mistress of the Pyramid," and identified the Pyramid itself as the "House of Isis."
The Stele describes how Pharaoh Khufu, "gave to her (Isis) an offering anew, and he built again (to restore, renovate, reconstruct) her temple of stone." From there, the Pharaoh inspected the Sphinx, according to the text, and related the story of how in his time both the monument and a nearby sycamore tree had been struck by lightning. The bolt had knocked off part of the headdress of the Sphinx, which Khufu carefully restored. Egyptologist Selim Hassan, who dug out the Sphinx from the surrounding sands in the 1930's, observed there is indeed evidence that portions of the Sphinx were damaged by lightning, and the mark of ancient repairs is very apparent. Also, he noted, sycamore trees once grew to the south of the monument, which had been dated to a great age.
The Stele then ends with the story of how Khufu built small pyramids for himself and his daughters, wife and family, next to the Great Pyramid. Today, the ruins of three small pyramids are indeed situated on the east side of the monument. Archaeologists have found independent evidence that the southernmost of the three small pyramids flanking the Great Pyramid was in fact dedicated to Henutsen, a wife of Khufu. Everything in the inscription thus matches the known facts. If these facts can be believed as true, then the additional information that Khufu was only a restorer of the Great Pyramid and not its builder, must also be treated as historically true.
ANCIENT LEGENDS AND MODERN RESEARCH CONFIRM EACH OTHER
When we look at mythic history for the story of the origins of the Great Pyramid, we discover that the monument was not attributed to any Pharaoh, but was the product of the genius and higher learning of the Gods of Old. Time and time again, from the Roman Marcellinus to the Coptic Al Masudi and the Arab Ibn Abd Alhokim, the recounters of the ancient legends tell how the Pyramid was built to preserve the knowledge of a magnificent civilization from destruction by a Flood, and that it was this Flood which brought the Age of the Gods to its tragic end. The various Chronologies of Legendary Rulers place a minimum date for the Age of the Gods as circa 10,000 B.C. This is the time frame Plato, in his Timaeus and Critias, ascribed the destruction of Atlantis. And it is also this date, as can be proven in modern scientific studies, which was highlighted by major climatic, geologic and geomagnetic disturbances, accompanied by massive paleo-biological extinctions in the planet, marking the division point between the Ice Age and the Present Era.
In Egypt, geologists examining the fossil record have found that the combined effect of melting glaciers in the Mountains of the Moon, plus a sharp rise in precipitation levels in Central Africa, caused the Nile river circa 10,000 B.C. to swell in size a thousandfold, eroding away cliff walls miles from its present banks, and washing out its entire valley throughout the length of Egypt. At the same time, as the Mediterranean Sea began to fill and rise due to higher ocean levels from melting northern glaciers, its waters for a brief period also flooded the lower Nile valley. These, geologists are certain, are the last major flood events in Egypt’s fossil history, before the sea retreated and the Nile settled down to today’s relatively peaceful, winding flow. Yet, knowing this, geologists are hard pressed to explain why there existed a fourteen-foot layer of silt sediment around the base of the Pyramid, a layer which also contained many seashells, and the fossil of a sea cow, all of which were dated by radiocarbon methods to 11,600 B.P. (Before Present) plus or minus 300 years.
Legends and records likewise speak of the fact that, before the Arabs removed the Pyramid’s outer casing stones, one could see water marks on the stones halfway up the Pyramid’s height, in about the 240-foot level, which would be 400 feet above the present Nile level. The medieval Arab historian Al Biruni, writing in his treatise The Chronology of Ancient Nations, noted: "The Persians and the great mass of Magians relate that the inhabitants of the west, when they were warned by their sages, constructed buildings of the King and the Giza Pyramids. The traces of the water of the Deluge and the effects of the waves are still visible on these pyramids halfway up, above which the water did not rise." Add to this the observation made when the Pyramid was first opened, that incrustations of salt an inch thick were found inside. Most of this salt is natural exudation from the chambered rock wall, but chemical analysis also shows some of the salt has a mineral content consistent with salt from the sea. Thus, during the prehistoric Flood, when waters surrounded the Great Pyramid, the known and unknown entrances leaked, allowing seawater into the interior, which later evaporated and left the salts behind. The locations where the salts are found are consistent with the monument having been submerged half-way up its height.
If the floodings of 10,000 B.C. were the last major catastrophic water events in Egypt, and the Pyramid exhibits signs of having been subjected to them, it means the Pyramid must date from a period before the flooding occurred.
Though most Egyptologists today have yet to accept such a necessary "radical" revision of their dating of the Pyramid, there have been other discoveries that have forced them to at least realize that their preconceived theories of any early Dynastic age for the structure is no longer tenable.
www.atlantisrising.com...
[edit on 16-10-2009 by Sargoth]
reply posted on 16-10-2009 @ 01:06 PM by Hanslune
Originally posted by Sargoth
Howdy Sargoth
Well I was born in a non-English speaking country but I'd say my English comprehension was good enought to get three degrees from American Universities. My teachers always beat me up for my poor spelling and grammar but gave me brownie points for being terribly cute and well read.
Sargoth I guess English isn't your primary language, maybe that's why you don't read very well and ignored what I wrote. Fringe researchers make up stuff, didn't you note this?
Hans: Not really they just tend not to believe the claims of people like Sitchin who made the first well known claim that the Stele said something like this. Of course like most Sitchin claims they all share the characterisitic of having come from the rear end of a goat.
Hans: Yes I've read the Inventory stele several times - every time this false Sitchin claim comes up.
Here is what it REALLY says, as translated by James Henry Breasted
Breasted, Ancient Records of Egypt, Vol 1, p. 85 §180
Not the mumbo jumbo that Sitchin came out with. Many 'researchers' have just repeated what Sitchin told them to believe without checking it.
Some info on the stele itself
From the Hall of Ma'at
Don't believe me? Look it up yourself my friend!
You really need to stop trusting fringe sources. The general rule is fringe sources are 99% wrong orthodox sources are 99% correct.
[edit on 16/10/09 by Hanslune]
Howdy Sargoth
Hans, I guess English isn't your primary language, mabe that's why you don't read very well and ignore proof when it's right in front of your face.
Well I was born in a non-English speaking country but I'd say my English comprehension was good enought to get three degrees from American Universities. My teachers always beat me up for my poor spelling and grammar but gave me brownie points for being terribly cute and well read.
It said Khufu himself declared he only resored the Great Pyramid.
Sargoth I guess English isn't your primary language, maybe that's why you don't read very well and ignored what I wrote. Fringe researchers make up stuff, didn't you note this?
If Egyptologists have an attitude like yours, then I can see why nothing is ever resolved in Egyptology.
Hans: Not really they just tend not to believe the claims of people like Sitchin who made the first well known claim that the Stele said something like this. Of course like most Sitchin claims they all share the characterisitic of having come from the rear end of a goat.
Go read the inventory stele. We can all see how much of an idealog you are. You just can't admit when you're wrong.
Hans: Yes I've read the Inventory stele several times - every time this false Sitchin claim comes up.
Here is what it REALLY says, as translated by James Henry Breasted
Live the Horus: Mezer, King of Upper and Lower Egypt: Chufu, who is given life. He found the house of Isis, Mistress of the Pyramid, beside the house of the Sphinx of [Harmakhis] on the north-west of the house of Osiris, Lord of Rosta. He built his pyramid beside the temple of this goddess, and he built a pyramid for the king's-daughter Henutsen beside this temple.
Breasted, Ancient Records of Egypt, Vol 1, p. 85 §180
Not the mumbo jumbo that Sitchin came out with. Many 'researchers' have just repeated what Sitchin told them to believe without checking it.
Some info on the stele itself
This inscription is carried on the so-called Inventory Stela - a late (26th Dynasty, 664-525 BC) artefact which tells how Khufu found the Sphinx and a nearby Temple of Isis in a ruinous state which he set about restoring. The stela was discovered in a small temple known as 'Isis, Mistress of the Pyramid', built onto the east side of one of the Khufu satellite pyramids.
From the Hall of Ma'at
Don't believe me? Look it up yourself my friend!
You really need to stop trusting fringe sources. The general rule is fringe sources are 99% wrong orthodox sources are 99% correct.
[edit on 16/10/09 by Hanslune]
reply posted on 16-10-2009 @ 05:21 PM by PhotonEffect
Hey Hans-
Long time no speak- I can see you're still playing the same ole record...
Anyway I couldn't help but jump in when I read this point of yours:
You've used this argument quite a lot in the past, if I remember correctly, to shoot down any sort of presumption that a few of the Giza structures may've been built way before Khufu's time... and yes that includes the presumptions of a date ca 10,000 bce.
But I don't think you'll be able to use it too much longer....
And we have Gobekli Tepe to thank for that. It seems your Neolithic hunter/gatherers are more adept at constructing using huge slabs of stone than you'd like to offer them credit for.
The point I'm trying to make here is that you could at least try to exercise a little more open mindedness when discussing anything Ancient, including anything within Egyptology. Much of it is based on theory and incomplete evidence. There is quite a bit that is still unknown, especially when it comes to predynastic and early dynastic Egypt, and we must leave the possibility open that things are not how we've been lead to believe.
And if "neolithic hunters and gatherers" were able to, in what is now modern day Turkey, erect structures using huge carved stones over 10000 years ago , then why couldn't it have been done in Ancient Egypt?
Long time no speak- I can see you're still playing the same ole record...
Anyway I couldn't help but jump in when I read this point of yours:
Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by genius/idoit
There is no sign of a culture to have built such huge structures at that time- just neolithic hunter/gathers
[edit on 26/9/09 by Hanslune]
You've used this argument quite a lot in the past, if I remember correctly, to shoot down any sort of presumption that a few of the Giza structures may've been built way before Khufu's time... and yes that includes the presumptions of a date ca 10,000 bce.
But I don't think you'll be able to use it too much longer....
And we have Gobekli Tepe to thank for that. It seems your Neolithic hunter/gatherers are more adept at constructing using huge slabs of stone than you'd like to offer them credit for.
The point I'm trying to make here is that you could at least try to exercise a little more open mindedness when discussing anything Ancient, including anything within Egyptology. Much of it is based on theory and incomplete evidence. There is quite a bit that is still unknown, especially when it comes to predynastic and early dynastic Egypt, and we must leave the possibility open that things are not how we've been lead to believe.
And if "neolithic hunters and gatherers" were able to, in what is now modern day Turkey, erect structures using huge carved stones over 10000 years ago , then why couldn't it have been done in Ancient Egypt?
reply posted on 17-10-2009 @ 06:48 PM by zazzafrazz
reply to post by PhotonEffect
I see no fault in the evidence Hanslune presents, you may not like his style, but he is accurate regarding orthodox dating evidence for the Giza complex
Gobelki Tepe is a different site, different people, different era. Its like comparing the Sydney Harbour Bridge to the the Temple Of Karnak.
Whilst it does show that Neolithic people had an established complex social structure in place it has nothing whatsover to do with the dating of the Giza complex.
The GP is datable.
The Sphinx is debatable as to when the original carving took place and possible subsequent alterations.
[edit on 17-10-2009 by zazzafrazz]
I see no fault in the evidence Hanslune presents, you may not like his style, but he is accurate regarding orthodox dating evidence for the Giza complex
And we have Gobekli Tepe to thank for that. It seems your Neolithic hunter/gatherers are more adept at constructing using huge slabs of stone than you'd like to offer them credit for.
Gobelki Tepe is a different site, different people, different era. Its like comparing the Sydney Harbour Bridge to the the Temple Of Karnak.
Whilst it does show that Neolithic people had an established complex social structure in place it has nothing whatsover to do with the dating of the Giza complex.
The GP is datable.
The Sphinx is debatable as to when the original carving took place and possible subsequent alterations.
[edit on 17-10-2009 by zazzafrazz]
reply posted on 18-10-2009 @ 06:50 PM by PhotonEffect
reply to post by zazzafrazz
Hi there Zazza
After reading your post it seems you've completely missed (or misunderstood) the point I was trying to make to Hans.
Hans said this in reference to Giza:
What Hans is insinuating here is that neolithic hunter/gatherers of around 10,000bc were not capable of erecting huge stone structures. Well this is no longer true as evidenced by the discovery of Gobekli Tepe- this is part of my point.
What that site is demonstrating, as you pointed out, is that neolithic peoples were indeed capable of organizing themselves into societies while also taking on large building projects involving hundreds of workers and the use of huge and extremely heavy stones. And get this, for religious purposes too!
So if it turns out that they could do this in Turkey at around 10,000 bc, which btw is not a far distance from Egypt at all (note: Ancient Egyptians were known to trade with Lebanon, so an ancient connection with Turkey is certainly plausible), why couldn't the Neolithic people of Giza have done it too?-- You know what, maybe they did, starting with the Sphinx... certainly possible now. And who knows what else could be buried underneath those Egyptian sands that may tell another story...
You see Zazza, while you like to say that Gobekli Tepe has nothing to do with Giza, I say that it does...WHy? because we can't ignore the implications that GT may have on other sites simply because it's not located in the same area or because you think that it's from a different era. This would be a close minded approach, and such a mindset can only serve to suppress learning anything new about human history.
On the importance of Gobekli Tepe :
WOnder what else they'll find there...
[edit on 18-10-2009 by PhotonEffect]
Originally posted by zazzafrazz
reply to post by PhotonEffect
I see no fault in the evidence Hanslune presents, you may not like his style, but he is accurate regarding orthodox dating evidence for the Giza complex
And we have Gobekli Tepe to thank for that. It seems your Neolithic hunter/gatherers are more adept at constructing using huge slabs of stone than you'd like to offer them credit for.
Gobelki Tepe is a different site, different people, different era. Its like comparing the Sydney Harbour Bridge to the the Temple Of Karnak.
Whilst it does show that Neolithic people had an established complex social structure in place it has nothing whatsover to do with the dating of the Giza complex.
The GP is datable.
The Sphinx is debatable as to when the original carving took place and possible subsequent alterations.
[edit on 17-10-2009 by zazzafrazz]
Hi there Zazza
After reading your post it seems you've completely missed (or misunderstood) the point I was trying to make to Hans.
Hans said this in reference to Giza:
There is no sign of a culture to have built such huge structures at that time- just neolithic hunter/gathers
What Hans is insinuating here is that neolithic hunter/gatherers of around 10,000bc were not capable of erecting huge stone structures. Well this is no longer true as evidenced by the discovery of Gobekli Tepe- this is part of my point.
What that site is demonstrating, as you pointed out, is that neolithic peoples were indeed capable of organizing themselves into societies while also taking on large building projects involving hundreds of workers and the use of huge and extremely heavy stones. And get this, for religious purposes too!
So if it turns out that they could do this in Turkey at around 10,000 bc, which btw is not a far distance from Egypt at all (note: Ancient Egyptians were known to trade with Lebanon, so an ancient connection with Turkey is certainly plausible), why couldn't the Neolithic people of Giza have done it too?-- You know what, maybe they did, starting with the Sphinx... certainly possible now. And who knows what else could be buried underneath those Egyptian sands that may tell another story...
You see Zazza, while you like to say that Gobekli Tepe has nothing to do with Giza, I say that it does...WHy? because we can't ignore the implications that GT may have on other sites simply because it's not located in the same area or because you think that it's from a different era. This would be a close minded approach, and such a mindset can only serve to suppress learning anything new about human history.
On the importance of Gobekli Tepe :
Göbekli Tepe is regarded as an archaeological discovery of the greatest importance, since it profoundly changes our understanding of a crucial stage in the development of human societies. Apparently, the erection of monumental complexes was within the capacities of hunter-gatherers and not only of sedentary farming communities as had been previously assumed. In other words, as excavator Klaus Schmidt put it: "First came the temple, then the city."
WOnder what else they'll find there...
[edit on 18-10-2009 by PhotonEffect]
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