Spanking may lower kids' IQs

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker

Originally posted by Jazzyguy

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker
I agree, if the punishment fit the crime we would have alot less violent world. Soft liberal laws have however made a mockery of true justice. Eye for a eye, death for death imo.

That is Iranian sharia law, btw.

And? Meaning? It must somehow be wrong because its part of Iranian law? Punishments should fit the crime.

No, not necessarily wrong.
But if you want that kind of law to be implemented all across the world, you better ask around first, check with other ATS members, see if they agree with the implementation.
BTW, of course the punishment should fit the crime, but it looks to me we differ a little bit in what constitutes a fitting punishment.

reply to post by Donnie Darko

So after growing up where I had "the excrement knocked out of me" each day I now find I would have been a major Genius had I grown up in a pacified family scenario?

Maybe it is simply a case of those who are abused through their childhood "shrink themselves" to avoid detection after a lifetime of being indoctrinated with the beliefs of, "I'm not worthy", I deserve nothing", I'm useless".

Many parents of Malleable, Compliant children oppose smacking of any kind.

Those parenting Vigilant, Single-Minded children see no harm in an appropriate smack when necessary. And not as a normal reactionary thing.

Those parents who react with un-thinking force are the ones we seek to pull up and change. If we think legislation based on semi-blind research will change them then we really are on the wrong path.

Therefore, no amount of research is going to find a significant connection unless the exercise is designed to, or the statistics are 'fudged'. Which does happen frequently in the world of research, governments and statistics. Getting the result wanted by those paying the bill is a major incentive.

"Spare the rod and spoil the child" is not saying, do not smack but spoil the children instead. It is saying that if you spare the rod the child will become spoilt, as in a bad apple.

If there is never a need to smack your children then be thankful for that. Those who do have children needing a smack from time to time are worse off because most really do not want to smack their children. It does emotionally hurt a parent to do so, no matter what all the non-smackers believe.

reply to post by Donnie Darko


Yeah, well what good is a smart person who has no control and thinks he/she can get away with everything???? Oh, I forgot, those are the wall street guys!

Seriously though, I feel spanking is okay. The words 'corporal punishment' just fail to apply IMO, spanking is discipline. And without it children are spoiled. Ever seen a parent try to talk a kid into behaving? It is painfully ridiculous. Pop his butt. He will quit and know that the next time this is the repurcussion for that action. Spanking should be done with stern reassurance that you are doing it to keep the child from possibly injuring himself, or others, or for whatever reason the spanking has taken place, and the discipline will teach a lesson that will endure even in the lack of the parents prescence.

reply to post by Donnie Darko

The bad news is that youngsters who are spanked might lose IQ points.

Let me rephrase that:

"The bad news is that youngsters who are spanked might gain IQ points. "

Both are credible, might is used for a reason here.



[edit on 26-9-2009 by oozyism]

Originally posted by Donnie Darko


In looking at spanking just in the United States, Straus and a fellow researcher reviewed data on IQ scores from 806 children between 2 and 4 years old and another 704 kids aged 5 to 9.

When their IQs were tested again four years later, children in the younger group who were not spanked scored five points higher, on average, than did children who had been spanked. In the group of older children, spanking resulted in an average loss of 2.8 points.

"How often parents spanked made a difference," Straus said in a news release from the university. "The more spanking, the slower the development of the child's mental ability. But even small amounts of spanking made a difference."



--------------------------------------------------------


Well there you go. Proof that spanking is harmful.

news.yahoo.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

Proof that statistics are useless to people who cannot interpret them correctly or don't have an open mind to understand what the data means.

Poor intelligence can lead to behavior problems - those problems may need to be corrected with a smack - there is an alternative interpretation.

The US government doesn't want children to be disciplined - they want chaos, and divisions - disciplined children tend to achieve better results and integrate better socially - that is not in the interests of those who wish to control entire populations.

The current problem in such case is the whole moral concept of a modern familly, that includes modern ideology which is a combination of school teachings/ ethics, and modern enviroment, which (in the most cases) is giving the power of choice in the heands of our youngsters, but not the family anymore.
In the most cases, with hasardous results, damaging the life of that young person.
As a resoult, anger coms up, animal instincts are dominating, he seeks power, and the only way to do that is to force (indirectly) his ideology upon others.
later he's kids will inherate he's fundametal behaviour, and give it to the next generation.

And that is the real problem

I was spanked at least 3 times a week until I was 14. I went on to graduate in the top 2% in my class at my university. I teach school and I am currently working on a PHD. I guess spanking ruined my life and my educational abilities.

My kids get spanked. They will not become some spoiled. What do parents do when they have a child who is totally defiant and timeouts and other mental punishment fail to work. Do they give in, send them to boot camp? Sorry spankings cover it all. Especially if the parent makes clear to the child why they are being spanked. Usually that's the problem with spanking. Parents just grab them up and spank them without the child knowing why or what they did.

Originally posted by Mathius
any time one human strikes another, nothing good can come of it.

Spanking is violence, and violence should NEVER be a solution.

I was spanked a Lot as a child, actually more than spanked. I have a high IQ as did both of my parents.
I learned as a Child that there are painful consequences to Bad Behavior, and learned to respect authority.
It has been said that it is a Bad thing to Fear your parents, but I do not believe that at all.
I believe that when I was physically punished, I learned to fear the Reprecussions while still loving and respecting my parents.
It is also my Belief, that the Lack of physical punishment causes disrespect and disreguard for rules and laws.
I do Not believe in Beating a Child, but a good Spanking teaches one to fear reprecussions for the action.

Let me give you an example. I used to take my oldest grandson every weekend when he was younger.
When he was at my house he behaved the way he was directed by me because he knew he would get a swat on the behind if he didn't.
We have a Very close relationship. He was always well behaved and respectful when he was with me.
I one day brought him to his other grandparents house, ( they do not believe in spanking in any form) when we walked in the door he made a bee line for the sunroom which his grandmother told him not to go into.
I watched her tell him four times not to go out there and he didn't listen, opened the door and out he went.
I stood for few seconds, then I said, loudly enough for him to hear, One, Two, and he was back in the house like a shot. I only go to three.
He is almost 20 now and we are still very close while he has little interest in seeing his other grandparents.
So, I will never believe that spanking a misbehaving child is the wrong way to disipline.

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
Well there you go. Proof that spanking is harmful.

Not really, as 5 points on an IQ test is well within a natural variation anyway. Anyone tested on an IQ test can swing several points either way quite easily each time.

Secondly, I was spanked (often and hard) as a youngster and when I have been tested for my mental ability, I have been placed in the 98th percentile and score in the region of 130-140 on IQ tests. So what does that say about this "study", apart from it is really just a load of codswollop.

Sorry, I don't believe it for a moment.

If it were true - I'd be a *drooler*.

Added note? More kids today need to see the back side of a wooden spoon.


peace

OK, time to point out a few things. If they have already been pointed out, forgive me. This thread is growing faster than I can keep up with it.

First from the article that started this debacle:

That's the view of discipline and domestic violence expert Murray Straus, a professor of sociology and co-director of the Family Research Laboratory at the University of New Hampshire. Straus was scheduled to present the findings from recent research on spanking on Friday at the International Conference on Violence, Abuse and Trauma in San Diego.
(emphasis mine)

Source: news.yahoo.com...

It appears that some people are not able to separate two completely separate issues. Spanking as in discipline is not abuse. Spanking as in hitting for retaliation or to mitigate displaced hostility is abuse. The difference is in the motive and the application.

I spanked both of my kids. The last spanking my son got was so severe I actually worried that I may have crossed the line. But it had to be done; he had just done something that had the potential to seriously injure his sister. Apparently I didn't cross that line, because today he is intelligent, compassionate, and an excellent student.

The reason is that even when I was spanking him that hard, I didn't want to spank him. I wasn't doing it out of anger; I was trying to stop his present actions and attitudes dead in their tracks. Not to make my life easier, but to make his easier later on. Never once in my life have I ever hit my children in anger. Never in my life will I do so.

People today seem to have this idea that children are little adults, and all they need is a good talking-to in order to realize their mistakes and correct them. W_R_O_N_G_! Children are born without knowing societal expectations and rules, only knowing the same things animals know: how to eat, how to cry for momma, how to be angry or afraid. The rest is taught. In order to teach a child who does not understand societal rights and wrongs, one must appeal to what they do understand.

Proper parenting is much much more than simply administering a slap across the lower jaw from time to time, but it sometimes (usually at least once or twice in every child's life) requires some sort of corporal punishment, at least in my experience. If properly administered, this type of punishment can (and should, IMHO) be only used as a last resort, to appeal to the more basic instincts of a misbehaving child.

The aim of rearing a child is also more than just getting them to survive until they move out. Parenting is a lifelong commitment. The true measure of how well one performed at parenting will only be reckoned after one is long dead, based on how well that child has handled life. Did they manage to make their own way? Were they successful at their chosen career? What did they do to help others along their way? If they had children, how well are their children doing? All of these things, and more, will come into play in the final tally.

Abuse is a completely different animal. Abuse happens when someone in a family attempts to harm another member of that family. Yes, it can include beatings, but it can also include sexual misconduct, continual mental conditioning ("You're stupid" is the most harmful thing a parent can say to their children), or just fear tactics. It does not include discipline, which is there to make a child's life better, not worse.

Abuse is wrong and should be frowned upon by society in the strictest possible form. But it should also never be associated with discipline.

Of those who will state how terrible it was that their parents spanked them, I say back:
"If your parents spanked you out of love, then you apparently have some mental issues. An adult should be capable of seeing past initial appearances. If your parents spanked you out of anger, then you are not talking about discipline, but abuse. You should, again as an adult, be able to distinguish between the two. In either case, you appear to be suffering from an inability to understand society, and I recommend a good therapist to help you work out your issues."

In the meantime, would all you enlightened parents please stop dropping your kids off at the toy store like it was a daycare center for shoppers, and allowing them to terrorize the neighborhood pets, and please inform their little enlightened selves that bullying in school is against your values. Their actions outside your kind influence sphere are becoming tiresome.

Secondly, I am hearing a lot of agreement that the study established a link between lower IQs and spankings. I present to you that to make the statement that spankings cause lower IQs is totally unscientific at this point. There are three possibilities:

• Spanking a child lowers their IQ.
  
• Lower IQ children require more spankings due to their inability to learn to correct their behavior as fast.
  
• There is another, as yet unnoticed trait that creates both more spankings and lower IQs that is responsible for both.

I personally will go with the second possibility until more information is presented (hopefully by someone not openly working in domestic violence).

TheRedneck

reply to post by stumason


I was thinking about that..., what is the point of this kind of study?

I think it is to attract money. The more attractive the title, the better.

reply to post by stumason


Hey, look at this we found something to agree on. Good to see we are not always on opposite sides.



Raist

Then shouldn't they bring more attention to the studies that show there have been more behavior problems since prayer was taken out of schools?

reply to post by silo13
That is SOOOO correct. just look at what is becoming of our society today. The courts are telling parents they can't spank their kids and the kids have become wise to this and run their parent's lives and do what they will. I'm not sayin take out your frustrations on the kids, however lettin them to what they want won't make them any smarter either. and the puttin them in a corner doesn't work either. Oh, and yeah I am a parent to three 20, 18, 14 Two of which are currently in collage and gettin good grades( or I kick their ass)

Some people are able to express love enough to make up for the negativity that violence creates...

But violence is negativity...

Violence creates violence.

reply to post by Jezus


Exactly...


You won't find violent offenders who came from non-violent loving homes.


Someone like me who was beat as a child has to hold back everytime I have the slightest issue with someone... I feel the unnecessary rage rise within me on a daily basis and must filter it from my actions.

My son, however, who has never known violence, seems to let things just roll off his back.



[edit on 30-9-2009 by HunkaHunka]

If you are consistent in the way you spank your kids, and if you start at at an early enough age, you can stop spanking your kids by age two, three or four. It all depends on the personality type.

Now please follow along before you jump all over me. A good loving and caring parent will be heart broken when they spank their child. And I am not talking about beating them.....just a smack on the ass...which is not going to hurt them at all....not even psychologically or emotionally.

You only spank when your child is openly defiant. You don't spank them for spilling their milk or dropping their cookie on the floor.

You always reinforce your love for them afterwards too.

It's not like you are spanking them all the time......not if you start young enough. In fact, I know parents that gave their two year olds two or three spanks total, and that was the end of their child's defiance and disrespect.

If you do it consistently, they will respect you and you will rarely ever have to spank them after they are 3(average for most kids).

Later, you can try things like a three count....."If you don't do as I ask in the count of three you are going to get a spank on the bum."

Keep your counting speed consistent because they will test that too....and if ya hit three...ya have to spank them....otherwise you get played for a sucker over and over again.

The little bit of pain you experience and the little bit of pain they experience is NOTHING compared to the alternative....which could be a lifetime in JAIL later in life.

As they get older, you can take privileges away.

We have two straight A honor students....both a grade ahead of their peers. I asked them if they feel they have to work hard to get good marks.....both answer....NO. They just do their homework at normal intensity, and find the work easy and fun. My kids are a pleasure to be around. They are not violent, and communicate really well with other adults. Their teachers love them, and their friends look up to them, often referring to them as geniuses. Am I sounding proud yet?

Oh! and they have no memory of getting spanked.

To say spanking breeds violence might be true if you failed to be consistent when they were young and you are now faced with disciplining an older child.

But starting them off young ends the whole defiance thing really quick, and there is no violent behavior going to result from that. I mean...when was the last time you saw a 3 year old spank another kid on the bum?
It doesn't happen....and if it does...do you call that violence. They learn violence like punching and kicking from abusive parents and TV, or watching other kids who have been brought up by abusive parents.

Now, if you folks are talking about spanking 8 year olds...well...sorry....it's too late......You missed the boat....you should have started when they were much much younger.....an 8 year old is pretty darn tough in the backside, so you are only going to hurt yourself more than your 8 year old....probably throw your back or shoulder out for three months...

Suffer through a few moments of pain with your child while they are young, and you will save yourself and them a lifetime of misery...believe me...I know.



[edit on 30/9/09 by John Matrix]

Considering the restarted nature of kids these days i personally would rather have well behaved idiots than out of control geniuses with no respect for older people or their own peers. Kids these days need the S*&T beaten out of them. All this happy happy joy joy send your kid to the corner garbage only shows them how WEAK you are as a parent.