Spanking may lower kids' IQs

reply to post by ownbestenemy


Experience is the best punishment.

My daughter put her hand on the stove once, she burned herself, very lightly, since kids have lightning fast reflexes and what not.

She never went to the stove again. I didn't need to "get her attention".

My other 3 learned from her, because when I told them not to touch, she would enforce that command by telling the story of how she burnt her finger.

There is NEVER a time where you need to hit your child to make him understanding anything. Compassion, love and WORDS can do it far better, regardless of what people wanna say.

~Keeper

Originally posted by Veritas Lux Mea

Yes, but my point is; children are LESS LIKELY to misbehave in the first place if they have all of their needs met.

Love, attention, security, trust.. these are all needs of a child.

Don't fulfill their basic needs? Then OF COURSE they will misbehave.

I say a little prevention goes a long way!

Ensure their needs are well met first, and you'll have a MUCH better child on your hands. And other 'lesser' forms of discipline (like time out) work exceptionally well.

- Mea

I agree with everything you are saying here. There are however many cases of kids who get all the love, attention, and need fullfillment any kid could ask for, and they still turn out bad. Why? I don't know, mental quirk or bio-chemistry maybe. I'll leave it to the professionals to figure out but you cannot doubt that some turn bad no matter what kind of treatment they recieve.

All in all though, prevention as you said is a good start to prevent bad apples.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
You fail to see the problem. It's because of the brutish approach to children that our prisons are so full as it is...
[edit on 25-9-2009 by HunkaHunka]

You fail to see reality. I'm not American, dude. We don't have 3 million prisoners. And it's exactly that brutish approach in other countries that they don't have that much criminals.

Experience is the best punishment.

I never said it wasn't. And I am highly respectful of your views and position. They are noble and right. Not all children are the same. Some have this insatiable desire to figure it out all by themselves. No matter what. My youngest is this way. From having to not only touch everything but use his other senses to figure it out, i.e. putting things in his mouth.

A stern voice will usually do the trick, but sometimes his curiosity overrides and I am not about to allow my child to get a 2nd degree burn or whatever else you wanna put in the place of that example that causes bodily harm to himself (or others). I am not talking about a slight burn.

There is NEVER a time where you need to hit your child to make him understanding anything. Compassion, love and WORDS can do it far better, regardless of what people wanna say.

Stay true to your stance and stand by them with conviction. They are wonderful and a wonderful way to raise your children.

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
The obsession with revenge-based justice is one of the main reasons the world is so violent.

Actually, the lack of obession with revenge-based justice is one of the main reason the world is so violent.

MAD saved the world from a nuclear holocaust, didn't it?

reply to post by ownbestenemy


Thanks for the encouragement friend. But yes I do raise my voice to get my point accross, I think that's something all parents are required to do at some point or another.

And I agree that also I would not allow my child to do something which would put them in severe harm or cause them severe pain. The burn with my daughter was basically just the tip of her finger.

She got a little blister and I would have sworn she was going to die the way she went on about it lol. It worked in scaring the other 3 off lol.

~Keeper

Originally posted by eldard

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
The obsession with revenge-based justice is one of the main reasons the world is so violent.

Actually, the lack of obession with revenge-based justice is one of the main reason the world is so violent.

I agree, if the punishment fit the crime we would have alot less violent world. Soft liberal laws have however made a mockery of true justice. Eye for a eye, death for death imo.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
She got a little blister and I would have sworn she was going to die the way she went on about it lol. It worked in scaring the other 3 off lol.

~Keeper

I prefer to teach my son through action too. Let him fall off of the chair that he INSISTS on bouncing around in. Let him get his finger pinched if he wants to keep messing with the door. Let him experience a little consequence for his actions.. (its sounds like I'm not, but I'm actually VERY protective over him too)

We learn best through experience.. not being shielded!

I appreciate your ideas! It sounds like you're a great parent.

- Mea

This is what happens when you don't spank. www.abovetopsecret.com...

Ahahaha! Pathetic!

Firstly, for any who say, "Just let people do what they do" -- why are you in this thread again...? Oh, wait, why are you on ATS AT ALL. ALL WE DO is talk about what OTHER PEOPLE DO - 99% of the time anyway. If you are neutral, you are just as if not more dangerous. Who respects neutrality?

Secondly, I agree teaching a kid not to burn them self by dropping a piece of paper and letting it catch fire might be effective. I also know that if a kid by chance touches something hot, they don't do it again! So, yes, that method is decent. However, you do NOT go up to another child and SLAP it in the head and say, "See honey? Don't hit other people." Why? Because that's retarded. If the kid still hasn't got the point and doesn't get not to pick on other kids, you kick their ASS. I got picked on through-out my entire school career, and let me tell you - there are a lot of kids out there who need their ass kicked. Fortunately for me, I was able to defend myself, even as a runt, and people moved on to the next person. Unfortunately, I've always been the kind of person to get in the middle and protect the weaker! You fools think you are raising good kids? Sorry to tell ya, but most of you don't even know that you are raising deceitful, selfish, politic little $&!#s. I grew up with them, I went to school with them, I've worked with them, and I now boss them around at work. You think I don't know your games? You think you're doing such a good job? All you did is gain face. Trust me, they're devils. And politics ain't gonna save this world.

Thirdly, for any of you to think for a second that when you smack your kid you are being a bully, you are becoming completely transparent. You are proving that you have no clue what you are doing. You are proving that you are politic and good at pushing buttons, which is what DECEITFUL PEOPLE learn to do to get their ways. I know, I was a kid once, I've done it! And I got a bloody lip from my little brother one time from it, and I'm a fast guy! And I won't be pushing his buttons again anytime soon.

And what is so ironic is that I didn't even push his buttons that badly. I picked on him for not cleaning his teeth. He would also ignore it and I would always point it out (not at school, but sometimes in public). I got a bloody lip and he now has white teeth. And he's got a girlfriend. Woohoo!

Whatever. You people are weak. Incredibly weak. I work with people with your mentality and they accomplished squat during the day. Here's an executive's schedule where I work :

Weekends? Only for the hard working executive. Notice that is singular.

Weekdays - Mon, Wed, Fri -- show up at 6AM for opening shift, grab a cup of coffee, log into the workcenter, check e-mail, grab another cup of coffee, tell some people what to do based on the e-mails, say, "I'm hungry! Are you hungry?" to fellow exec, go get breakfast at high-priced restaurant and bring it back to the desk, delegate to people who are lost sheep that show up to your office door, continue to eat your breakfast and read, finally make it to the floor an hour before lunch, organize some things, tell people more things to do, go to lunch (usually more high-priced stuff), show back up and go read a few more e-mails, go onto the floor for 2 hours to make yourself feel like you accomplished something during the day, tell the next executive that you're hungry and beat and it's been a busy day, tell them what other people are doing, leave, and next executive begins where you left off.

These people, by the way, voted for Obama, do not believe in corporeal punishment, think that marijuana should be legalized, and believe that universal healthcare is the only way to save an economy that is an illusion, but to them, it's getting better. Oh, and the ones that do have kids, the phone conversations go like this, "Yes honey. Yes. Sure, yeah, go into this drawer...now take out the wallet... yes... Leave a little for me!! Hahaha. No, that's no good. No, I don't need anything. Don't spend it all in one place!" -- These are the people who are in charge of the businesses in Corporate America. These are the people who have no clue what is going on. All they know is that they are slaves to something that they can't control, but however, their slavery is limited to taking orders and being crapped on through e-mails and the occasional visit, and then when the visitor leaves, they dump all the crap and orders onto the peons and go back to finish their third freakin' snack. These are the reasons why your bills get messed up all the time. These are the reasons that you always think that YOU have bad luck and can't get stuff done because you gotta go to work and you shouldn't have to turn your cable on over a miscommunication or random error. This is why you can't get a break -- because the people who are making 30-50-80,000+ do NOTHING and their peons are sheep!

Welcome to the wonderful world without discipline.

What use is learning if you're not going to use iT?! University my butt.

It's all about "me" and some people try to be good and say, "me and my own", but yeah, whatever.

It's just you.

reply to post by TarzanBeta


Tarzan I want to understand your point and position better and what you are trying to convey but that all came out like the big bang.

Are you saying that the study is bogus? That parents who discipline through the means of spanking or harming or simply giving a little nudge in the right direction?

Truly want to understand what you have to say.

reply to post by TarzanBeta


So, we, the people who refrain from partaking in one of the most primal human responses of violence are the weak ones?

Yet you embrace it? Hmm...I think we all know who the weak one is here.

And why go on about executives and mix in Obama and all that jazz? That was never discussed.

We are discussing the ways to help children develop with or without violence, since you don't have any children (you may, but you haven't eluded to it) then you don't really have any "child raising" experience to back up your view point now do you?

All you have is what you have observed through very limited scope of information and understanding. I'm not saying that you aren't able to comprehend these situations, but you haven't had to deal with them as a parent.

I apologize, but I am not weak for not wanting to cause my children harm by hitting them and enforcing the idea that violence is required to be healthy. It's simply not true.

~Keeper

[edit on 9/25/2009 by tothetenthpower]

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by ownbestenemy

 

Experience is the best punishment.

My daughter put her hand on the stove once, she burned herself, very lightly, since kids have lightning fast reflexes and what not.

She never went to the stove again. I didn't need to "get her attention".

My other 3 learned from her, because when I told them not to touch, she would enforce that command by telling the story of how she burnt her finger.

There is NEVER a time where you need to hit your child to make him understanding anything. Compassion, love and WORDS can do it far better, regardless of what people wanna say.

~Keeper

I appreciate this train of thought. The other side of the coin was to hit the kid or force them away as they are about to touch it, which also equals pain. Both "experiences" are brought about by feeling pain; and thus can be equated to traumatic experiences, and being possibly "fearful" of the stove. ahhh the almight fear. We North Americans know all about that campaign.

There was a post a few pages back that talked about putting a little piece of paper on the stove so the child can see it burning. I appreciate this train of thought, too; as in this method there is no pain at all. the challenge with that one is that a very curious child maywant to create the fire and "see" what happens. or touch the oven to "feel" what happens. which can also get them in a spot of trouble.

bottom line is that experience is the true teacher and thus best punishment, as you said. who knows how the child will react, or be affected. every child will react differently (emotionally) so you just never know until it happens. the key is how to react as a parent when it does.

on a side note Here's a little story that I expeirence with my family last weekend:

at a Community BBQ and we were sitting at a picnic table near one of the trash bins and consequently there were alot of wasps flying around. People (mostly females) are walking by the bin, and see the wasps and are like OMG! and shuffle away and squirm in FEAR. my wife, child and I are just sitting at the table with another couple, the wasps are buzzing around just looking for sugar, not bothering anybody and occasionally landing on a spoon filled with a bit of pop that my wife set up to keep them busy and away from our food. My daughter (15 months) extends her hand out to one of the wasps, points at it, and then literally starts "petting" it with her index finger. It just sits there sucking away at the pop and it let her pet it for a good 10 seconds before it flew away. We all had a good laugh; no stinging, no FEAR, no harm.

The point of this story is the two reactions to the presence of wasps. One of a "fearless" child, and the other of the "fearful" passers by. Now I can understand some people being afraid due to allergic reactions leading to death; but I would think that most people of that condition would have some kind of antidote (bee sting kit) on their person and/or not be overly fearful. The rest, well why exactly are they so "terrified" of the insects that have little to no interest in them? Is it a social stigma of being scared like you're "supposed" to be? is it cool to look scared of a little bug, so that the men can come and save you? or is it all those horrible stories or movies that they have seen about geting stung to death? or was it that their parents told them to WATCH OUT! or the bugs because they will HURT YOU!

meanwhile, I watch my innocent little girl petting a wasp... I ask: who in this world has petted a wasp, or even THOUGHT of doing it? it really is the little things in life the makes one wonder. and sometimes it takes a child to help you truly cherish the magical things of life.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


I am with you on the minor things. Slight burns, pinched fingers, falling off walls, etc they happen and they learn. I was using a more severe example to point out my stance that sometimes words fail and actions might have to be taken. It is never a staple and should be used very very very sparingly if ever at all.

To me, limiting the disciplinary actions to just love, compassion and words sometimes might have to be breached. Again, people read this as just going about and using spanking as a measure anytime, but it isn't.

reply to post by ownbestenemy


I agree with you. If I were in different circumstances and at one point thought that I had to lightly tap my children to get them away from something that would cause them harm, or to stop causing harm to somebody, I would have done so.

The difference is that from day they were old enough to understand, I sit and talk with all of my children at least 3 hours a day if possible.

And that's family time, but not with the TV or board games. With conversation. Stories about our lives as kids and how the world was different then than it is today.

I've driven points home so much that my kids often finish my sentences when I speak up about something they think is a good idea, like ridiculing a child at school or something like that.

As I said, I found the best way to discipline is to let them learn by experience but not only their own, but my own and their siblings own as well.

Communication is the most important thing in our family, and it's the way in which I think I have prevented from dealing with all the "major" problems associated with young children and teenagers.

~Keeper

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Slightly off topic but nonetheless...

Aye it is sad nowadays when I am out and about with my two boys and I see all these kids with their heads into an IPOD or gameboy and the parents have no interaction with their children.

My son who will be 8 has friends with cell phones, mp3 players, etc and I have sat with him and explained that those types of devices (especially a cell phone) are not needed to interact on a daily basis with the majority of people around him. The people he finds for friends are those that interact and play and not just text all day long to whoever a 7 year old texts.

Although they do have computer time, it is severely limited and earned time. Same goes with any other electronic device. Books, legos, playing with cars are all encouraged in my household on the other side.

Sitting with your children and talking with them about their day usually doesn't yield a whole lot and I think some adults who are parents have a hard time with that. They expect some in depth conversation to happen, but even a response such as "It was good" or "Just played" is enough sometimes for me because I know they are being active. Later on, when I ask them the same question is when I get the great conversations because they are starting to wind down and talk about their day.

[edit on 25-9-2009 by ownbestenemy]

reply to post by ownbestenemy


I like your approach on electronics. That's a little weakness I have however. See I own a business, that business does IT, so I'm a very big electronics guy.

My kids get spoiled I will give them that, however I do have rules when they are in the house.

We have a "Phone Bin" at the entrence of the living room and the kitchen, and if we are doing something as a family, they all go there, me included.

Computers, well they all have labtops because their schools have a program for it, I think it helps with their school work, however being an IT guy, they don't get to play games and what not at all hours.

I did have that problem with my kids just saying "it was good" after asking them how their day went, so I started telling them about my days in detail and they got a hang of it after a while.

I really like what kind of parent you seem to be friend, keep it up, your kids will do great.

~Keeper

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Oh man I can see if you are and 'IT' guy. lol. It's really just about teaching our kids the tools to life are just that, tools. Like you said regarding laptops, they are a tool to their schooling. I think that is fantastic. Anyone who keeps their children completely away from the technology of tomorrow is doing a huge disservice.


I have enjoyed the ability to disagree with you and also take away some of your thoughts. See you around the 'darker side of the internet' -- I like to think of this place as the darker side ha

reply to post by ownbestenemy


Read my post on how I taught my children to not touch hot burners without spanking them OR letting them get burned. It worked with my children, perhaps that is because they trust me enough to know that I do not harm them?

Originally posted by eldard
reply to post by amazed

 

And stress also causes longer life as it forces the body to adapt quickly. Which is proven.

Uh NO, stress causes negative reactions within the body such as heart disease, which does not cause "longer life".

Stress symptoms may be affecting your health, even though you might not realize it. You may think illness is to blame for that nagging headache, your frequent forgetfulness or your decreased productivity at work. But sometimes stress is to blame

www.mayoclinic.com...

* Headache
* Back pain
* Chest pain
* Heart disease
* Heart palpitations
* High blood pressure
* Decreased immunity
* Stomach upset
* Sleep problems
* Anxiety
* Restlessness
* Worrying
* Irritability
* Depression
* Sadness
* Anger
* Feeling insecure
* Lack of focus
* Burnout
* Forgetfulness
* Overeating
* Undereating
* Angry outbursts
* Drug or alcohol abuse
* Increased smoking
* Social withdrawal
* Crying spells
* Relationship conflicts

Deny ignorance.

Harm NONE
Peace

reply to post by amazed


I still contend that is your children, not mine. Each child is different no matter how much you tell me they are not. Some have larger curiosity, some respond to words, some respond to teaching by doing, some respond by having to figure it all out on their own.

I applaud your teachings and how you achieved it. My oldest, I didn't have to LET him get burned nor did I have to spank him, I was able to instill in him the fact that it was hot and will burn you and you will be in pain. My youngest, comprehends in a different way and by using different sensory perception and other sensory skills. I don't go around letting my child get hurt, nor do I protect them from minor incidents.

But lets say this. My oldest, did something that warrented in my beliefs and my way of bringing up a child, a smack on the rear end. Only happened once. He and his younger brother, like all brothers love each other but do get on each other's nerves from time to time. My oldest may get upset but always restrains himself from doing anything of harm to his brother out of what I see love.

So does spanking a child turn them into some violent monster that will be the bane of society and my oldest who is in 3rd grade reading at a 7th grade level and math at 5th grade level (I know I know, I am his dad so I will greatly boast this, but just going on facts) have a lower IQ?

It is in the eye of the beholder really and some parents do take spanking too far in MY own personal beliefs. Some don't take it far enough, again, in MY own personal beliefs.

Although off topic -- my youngest said a word that wasn't of the cleanest nature and I believe the bad taste of soap in his mouth will make him think twice about saying it again. Am I barbaric, resorting to just cruel methods of punishments? You may think so, you may not have to do such things and that is wonderful, but not everyone is the same.