Spanking may lower kids' IQs

reply to post by Primordial



I would like to point out that in the military, regardless of how much you screw up, you are punished -- and sometimes if you screw up less, you are still punished right along side the people who did screw up.

Why?

It develops respect, and if you suffer the consequences of an action (regardless of who-dun-it) you're more likely to not recreate that mistake and even beyond that understand the reasons for not doing such a thing even before you screwed up!

Some people do really good but get lazy one day and decide to fall out of step and WHAM! That was a mistake!

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Funny how other animals don't spank their kids though huh? Interesting little thought people don't think about. I guess the other animals know a secret we don't.

The secret is: they don't have hands to spank with. Dogs, for example, will nip, bark, growl, grab by the neck, and use other physically punitive means of "disciplining" their offspring.

en.allexperts.com...
The idea of using mother dog's natural training techniques isn't new. Respected trainers like Carol Lea Benjamin have been using them for years. To understand these methods, let's take a look at a typical mother dog disciplining her brood. We'll use my Heather (Chow) and her four rowdy puppies as an example.
[...]
If the puppy persists or doesn't take the hint, Heather doesn't fool around. With a menacing growl and using her teeth, she grabs him by the scruff of his neck and gives him a shake. If he sasses back, she gives him another little shake, tougher this time. She doesn't let go of the pup till he's acknowledged her authority (in dog language) by relaxing his body, laying his ears back and keeping still for a moment. Heather disciplines especially obnoxious puppies by knocking them over with her paw and pinning them to the ground, growling angrily and pinching them with her teeth. The puppies shriek but they're not really hurt. She doesn't let them up again untill they relax and lie still. After the correction, the puppy shakes his fur back into place and goes off in search of a playmate with a better sense of humor.

reply to post by TarzanBeta


Obviously you don't respect your elders if you think I am damaged good and that my children are as well.

As I said, I am not arguing this with you anymore. You've approached the situation bashing your head against the wall until you get through, so my efforts are meaningless.

Again, enjoy beating your children. I haven't needed to. I don't know why, but I haven't, and they haven't grown up selfish or retarted or whatever else kind of ignorance you'd like to make people believe they are.

They are good natured, well adjusted human beings. What more could I ask for? Sure, did they act out when they were kids? Ofcourse they did.

But why hit them? I just don't see the point. You do make a good point and I am in no way saying that if you did spank your kids, that it would somehow affect them in some sort of detrimental way.

I'm just saying I did it differently, and was successfull. I'm not just gonna spank them cause that's what other people have been doing for thousands of years.

I'm not about keeping the status quo. I found a better way (In My Opinion) to do so without the violence, so I do.

Those who would disagree, who cares? It worked for me. Probably wouln't work for you, but your family dynamic is probably very different than my own.

In any case, good luck with your kids friend, I hope you never HAVE to spank them for anything.

~Keeper

Originally posted by Mathius
But I also believe that once you start to threaten your child with violence, ie. spanking, and then actually follow through with it... you are scarring the child for LIFE. you are showing them that violence is a solution. which is an extremely damaging message... and can lead to big, badder things.

If you are scarring the child then you are not applying the discipline properly. Spanking should never be done in anger and it should be clearly explained to the child we he/she was spanked. Of coarse there will always be fear, but the child should fear the discipline rather than the pain.

As I said before, nature is full of violence and not making your children aware of it is very poor parenting. Children should know that some behaviour can result in violence otherwise they are woefully prepared for life. If I catch a young punk breaking into my car or tagging my garage, I will thrash him good so he remembers it. If it ends up scarring him for life, well mommy and daddy should have awakend his mind to the realities of this world. His poor behaviour at home may not have been punished but that doesn't mean someone else will tolerate such behaviour.

[edit on 25-9-2009 by FreeSpeaker]

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
reply to post by Mathius

 

You're wrong.

How do you like that?

There is black and white and there are good and bad people.

Let's "deny ignorance" and not tolerate lies.

And as far as personal attacks go, if people are getting so offended, then do you believe in what you are saying? I certainly haven't felt offended by opposition. I wonder if that is a sign...

If you parents are so offended because you're afraid to look at someone spouting your very own mistakes, don't worry. We all make mistakes. That's not the point. The point is to be HONEST with yourself about those mistakes and not re-create them.

I am not attacking people and saying people are bad. I am saying that the human condition is that of Lies and Deception. Lies and Deception may be able to re-create civility, but it is not honest civility and this government and this world is becoming more screwed up -- It is NOT improving, and I daresay that the ROOT cause of this is because parents are failing to raise their kids properly due to selfishness and laziness!

oh pls tell me, before I more thoroughly respond to your post... what exactly am I "wrong" about. what exactly is "wrong" with anybody that CHOOSES not to "smack" their child?

reply to post by Donnie Darko


That is a whole bunch of crap, I was the oldest of 4 children we all got spanked during our childhood, we all went to college and graduated from it, from all 4 of us only I am the homemaker (by choice now) my two brothers and sister are very successful hard working members of society

Crap nothing but propaganda crap, we all respected our parents and we all made it to adulthood responsibly, our children are also well ground young adults and college bound.

Now I can not deny that if you beat your child to a pulp occurs you are to cause some mental and physical damage but that is call abuse

Reconsider this old adage: "Spare the rod, spoil the child!"
Most think it means; if you don't beat your child, you will allow them to become spoiled rotten brats...

Yet, if you rethink what it means; you will see; if you beat your child, you "Spoil" them, as in ruin them!.

I have never believed in hitting or beating a child or adolescent. Most especially females.

Humans who relish hurting others, are not only bullies, but are the types who could be dungeon masters, torturers, executioners.

It is a normal animal reaction to attack back if you have been threatened or attacked first...

Not being able to control the urges or rage of frustration because of the inability to deal stresses, is why humans hit each other.

Gorilla's do the same thing...

We have to be able to live in collectives, for that is what we have turned our world into. Turning on each other because of fits of rage or jealousy, is what causes murders and wars.

The human walks a very fine line between civility and outright barbarianism.

This is why, a battle hardened, war weary warrior is never the same after the battle is over. They are never able to forget it.

Neither will a child who has suffered beatings...they are damaged souls too.

People who call smiply spanking a misbehaving kid "violence" or "Child abuse" are perfect examples of how much perspective we've lost in this country compared to prior generations. Speaking as a parent, you tailor the punishment to the offense as well as to the individual child. I've got a son who will set up his little sister if she's bothering him. I've watched him grab her by the hand, walk her into the kitchen, open the refigerator door and then yell for me or my wife, trying to get her punished for opening the fridge. You give him a time out, he stands in the corner quietly, then as soon as he's out of the corner he's back at trying to set her up again. Her, on the other hand, stand her in the corner and she reacts like it's the worst imaginable punishment she could get and when her time out is over she'll go sit by herself for 15 minutes pouting and being dramatic.

Awesome, thanks for posting this. :-) I don't spank, and my children are very intelligent (top scores in the state) and they are also very well behaved.

In reading this thread, I've noticed posters equating "discipline" with "spanking", seems they do not understand that discipline does not equate spanking. That discipline can take many forms which work far better than becoming violent towards your child. And yesss, hitting someone ie spanking is violence.

I discipline my children when they need it, without resorting to the violence of spanking.

So, some of you think inflicting pain increases intelligence? ROFL It causes stress, which causes lower IQ, which is proven in other studies. Stress also causes illness, which is proven, stress also causes anxiety and other mental disorders.

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

Ok, lets get a few examples..............

What if your child..........
1) set an animal/pet on fire on purpose?
2) tortured a pet?
3) tortured another child?
4) killed a pet on purpose?
5) tried to kill another person child or adult?
6) burned down someone's house on purpose?

I am in no way suggesting your child/children have done these things, I am asking what you might do in reaction to these kinds of events?
These are just a few examples off the top of my head.

Those are all examples of a person who has a mental illness, so if someone has an illness, we should punish them? I suggest THERAPY really quickly and possibly if necessary some form of medication, though I hate the idea of medicating children.

FreeSpeaker, I've spoken of this before, both my children were taught in a loving and THOUGHTFUL manner to not touch the stove. Neither had to get burned to learn the dangers of fire, and neither had to be spanked to learn the dangers of fire. How? When my first child was tiny, she kept reaching for the stove one night while I was trying to cook. I kept telling her "no owie", she kept reaching. I picked her up and let her look at the burner while I put a tiny piece of paper on it. Of course the paper burned. I said OWIE NO TOUCH. She never touched, she learned by watching that tiny piece of paper burn.

It is called thinking and using your brain to come up with ways to teach and discipline children without resorting to violence.

I also find it interesting, that in many cases, those who advocate violence towards their children, are also violent towards other adults. As seen in this thread and the meanness obviously within some of the posts towards those who do no believe in violence towards their children.

TarzanBeta, if war was caused by NOT slapping your child, then we should have zero wars in this world, as all over people are still violent towards their children.

violence...... begets violence. Teach children that the way to handle a situation is to resort to hitting someone ie becoming violent, then they learn that when they have problems in life, the way to deal with those problems is to resort to violence.

As a parent you don't "force" your children to become productive adults, you TEACH them.

I would also like to see a study on the IQ of parents who do choose to spank their children. I would bet that parents who spank their children, also have a lower IQ than those parents who do not spank.

Here is a tidbit of information for you guys. Serial killers have been studied for a long time now. In every situation, the finding show that they were spanked and abused as children. If spanking created "perfect" adults, we would not have serial killers. Childhood abuse may not be the sole excuse for serial killers, but it is an undeniable factor in many of their backgrounds.

Parents who abuse their children, physically as well as psychologically, instill in them an almost instinctive reliance upon violence as a first resort to any challenge.

Chew on that.

Harm NONE WHATSOEVER
Peace

Originally posted by Primordial
What if kids with lower IQ's are just more likely to do stupid things and not listen to their parents, thus getting spanked more often?

Good point.

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker

As I said before, nature is full of violence and not making your children aware of it is very poor parenting. Children should know that some behaviour can result in violence otherwise they are woefully prepared for life. If I catch a young punk breaking into my car or tagging my garage, I will thrash him good so he remembers it. If it ends up scarring him for life, well mommy and daddy should have awakend his mind to the realities of this world. His poor behaviour at home may not have been punished but that doesn't mean someone else will tolerate such behaviour.

[edit on 25-9-2009 by FreeSpeaker]

you're right, nature is full of violence. And the children growing up around us are extremely aware of it, whether we want them to be or not. violence is quite prevalent in real life, on TV/Films, in Sports. all sorts of peeps are smacking the crap out of each other. When I pick up my kid from daycare most days she has some kind of wound (ie. bite, scratch, bruise) from interacting with other kids. It's the way kids are, it's the way were are raised, and it's in our nature.

AND It's an automatic solution to everything that is "wrong". cops, corrections officers, military, government, and parents. we all do it. and have been doing it ever since the dawn of man.

At this point there is no changing it. But that doesn't mean i'm "wrong" for not "going with the flow" and smacking (or threatening to smack) her when she knocks over a vase, screams for no reason, or pokes our cat in the eye.

it's my choice to suppress the urge to hit, because honestly it's the 1st thing that pops in my head. and that, I believe is really what is "wrong".

I have 3 older children, whom were disciplined by spanking only as a last resort and never out of anger, when it was still somewhat acceptable to do so.
They have grown up to be respectable, productive adults.
My teenage son however, not spanked as a form of discipline, as it became a legal issue worthy of child protective services if your neighbor got too nosy..(as per the news headlines at the time), he shows little respect, and is on a downward spiral .
Do I blame myself for not enforcing the same discipline on him as I did his siblings? Damn straight I do.
Even his siblings agree...
Judge me all you like.
As for the study in the OP- I don't believe it..too many variables there, and the results are ridiculous.
Are the IQ's of kids really going up?
Not the way I view the world.
More and more kids, at younger ages are doing idiotic random acts with no thought whatsoever to the consequences if any at all.
All I have seen is kids getting stupider.

Funny thing spanking, I stayed out of alot of trouble and learned many life lessons such as how to respect authority whenever I was young from being SPANKED or BEAT a few times. My mom makes jokes that I was spanked every day between 8 and 13. The funny thing is I remember the things I thought I was really going to get a beating for were the things that really had already shaken me up enough as it was and my father would sit down and talk to me about those things and not spank me.


Thing is there are good fathers and mothers and there are those who don't pay enough attention to thier kids to know what they need in every situation. Every situation is different and every situation requires that the parents be go figure this ... A PARENT !!!

And evaluate the situation and talk to the kid about the event FIRST then spank or punish or what have you. Most parents do things just out of habit which is not being a parent. Being a father mother requires you to use your brain. Well being a GOOD parent does ... Some of you know all the answers and OBVIOUSLY you don't have children.

Originally posted by eldard
Yes. A whopping 2.8 points. Whopteedoo!

If this it true, though, how come American kids are still stupid? (It's would HAVE, not would OF!

)

There's more to it than just using violence as a means to solve a problem.

You also have to be involved with your child. You can't just not punish and isolate yourself from your child with both parents working and think junior will be fine.

I have found that you have to

1. Not condone violence as a solution to frustrating behavior
2. Have several in depth conversations with your child a day
3. Lead by example

Children will do silly things because they are children, and sometimes they don't interpret the meanings of their parents in the same way the parents intend them. So you have to get inside their head. Try to understand them so you can properly communicate what you are trying to get across.

However, if they are obstinate... look in the mirror.
If it's a battle of wills.... look in the mirror.

Want to know what your child will be like when they grow up? Look in the mirror.

BTW, I see a gain of two hundred thosand in America's prison population as the idiot American parent follows the advise of this study.

You fail to see the problem. It's because of the brutish approach to children that our prisons are so full as it is...

When you don't teach a child how to cultivate their own sense of authority and their sense of community, then you stigmatize them in a way in which they are either always trying to assert their own authority leading to the "entitlement" mindset, or they are constantly rebelling against authority.

A child who understands his own authority and where it ends and is taught to be at ease with both will not find themselves in prison.

My own son does what's asked of him and most of what is expected of him. He is never disrespectful and handles frustrating situations very well. He gets straight A's and does his chores on a daily basis.

Why? Well in his case, because he wants to be part of our family. When I was a child I didn't want anything to do with the people who hit me and took away whatever sense of authority I had. I was lucky though that my Father died when I was 17, so I could get out from underneath of his over dominate yet uninvolved ways.


Always use the desire of the child to your own advantage, and teach him/her how to achieve what they want, regardless of what that is. If you are their teacher, and they KNOW this, they will respect you even if they don't agree with you.


[edit on 25-9-2009 by HunkaHunka]

Originally posted by yeahright
Correlation does not imply causality. You'd think they'd know that. Apparently the people doing the study used to get walloped pretty frequently.

LOL, nice! I think this sums the whole thing up right here.

It all comes down to how you want to raise your children.

If you choose to spank your child then to hell with what anyone else thinks, its none of their buisness.

If you choose not to spank your child then to hell with what anyone else thinks, its none of their buisness.

If you feel like your kid needs spanked then spank them and spit in the eye of those who look down on you. The same goes for those who don't spank their child.

Originally posted by Veritas Lux Mea
Growing up, I was only spanked once or twice -- but my eldest brother got whipped nearly every day of his childhood. Since I was the only girl, I was spared, I suppose.. but I still had to helplessly listen to my big brother getting beat and I could do nothing about it.

Now, as we're older.. he is clearly lacking in IQ and doesn't have very much common sense. I love him the same, but I've always believed that the beating he endured DELAYED him in some way..

i have to say, opposite thing happened in my family. my sister and i have different dads and my dad happened to be pretty strict (thank god) and when i got out of line (which was only a couple times, probably because of the consequences) i got the belt. and as a child you could say that i was somewhat traumatized.

well, my sister NEVER got the belt...not even close. i love my sister to death...and she is no dummy...but i'm pretty smart. my IQ didn't take a beating...in fact i really couldn't imagine being any smarter all things considered. i mean, with my belt experience i ought to be forrest gump. jk jk

Originally posted by yeahright
Correlation does not imply causality. You'd think they'd know that. Apparently the people doing the study used to get walloped pretty frequently.

well seems more that there is a new agenda to coax parents into coddling their children into criminals.

Originally posted by jd140
It all comes down to how you want to raise your children.

If you choose to spank your child then to hell with what anyone else thinks, its none of their buisness.

If you choose not to spank your child then to hell with what anyone else thinks, its none of their buisness.

If you feel like your kid needs spanked then spank them and spit in the eye of those who look down on you. The same goes for those who don't spank their child.

i agree, other than the spitting in the eye part. there is no point in degrading somebody personally for a choice they have made; as in many cases it is society that has made the choice for them.

Originally posted by double_frick

Originally posted by yeahright
Correlation does not imply causality. You'd think they'd know that. Apparently the people doing the study used to get walloped pretty frequently.

well seems more that there is a new agenda to coax parents into coddling their children into criminals.

The shining light of common sense appears.

As I said before, I guess all the people who built the world we live (our ancestors) were idiots and raised their children violently, because they sure as hell smacked and beat their kids. Especialy for being disrespectful to eldars. And you know what, our society was safer and more respectful than today but I'm sure all the tough love dealt out back then had nothing to do with it.