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The $1000 Challenge

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posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 03:13 PM
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Inspired by some of the other posts here, I thought I would ask my fellow ATSers for weaponry advice.

I have personally owned an old surplus M1 Garand, a used FN-FAL, a Ruger Single-Action Super Blackhawk, and a Glock 20 before, although I had sold them off ages ago before my daughter was born. Now that she is at the age of learning Firearms safety and marksmanship, I would like to get some firearms again, both for myself and for her, but we have a very restrictive budget.

Is it possible to get a reliable, dependable multi-purpose Rifle and a semi-auto side-arm new for $1000 in the United States?

If so, what would you recommend?

By multi-purpose Rifle I mean a Tactical Auto-loading Rifle that can be used also as a Marksman/Target/Sniper Rifle. By reliable and dependable I mean that it can handle a high number of rounds without failure and isn't susceptible to dust and dirt. The challenge would ideally be for one that uses 7.62x51mm NATO rounds, but smaller calibers would be viable. If it even has a Pistol Grip (or Pistol Grip option) that would be ideal, but it is not necessary. Ultimately I would prefer something that is common enough to find parts and accessories for.

If you are up to the challenge, please provide Model & Manufacturer as costs can vary significantly.

[edit on 24-9-2009 by fraterormus]




posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 03:18 PM
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lowest iv'e seen for any semi would be 800 to 1900. try discount websites, they seem to be good.



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 03:49 PM
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I think you are asking for the impossible, A good semiauto carbine
doth not a sniper rifle make. Period. Choose one or the other.
For semi's the Ak is great at around $500, you might find a Ruger
mini 14 beater used for the same.

I would recommend the glock 27 but I doubt you want a .45 cal,
perhaps a 9mm would be a better gun to teach with. So many
good 9mm's out there it's hard to say. taurus are decently priced.

You also cant go wrong with a ruger 10/22, cheap, reliable, inexpensive
to shoot. That was the first gun my sons learned to shoot.

Good luck finding what you need, what part of the country do you
live in?



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 04:17 PM
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Originally posted by Asktheanimals
I think you are asking for the impossible, A good semiauto carbine
doth not a sniper rifle make. Period. Choose one or the other.
For semi's the Ak is great at around $500, you might find a Ruger
mini 14 beater used for the same.

I would recommend the glock 27 but I doubt you want a .45 cal,
perhaps a 9mm would be a better gun to teach with. So many
good 9mm's out there it's hard to say. taurus are decently priced.

Good luck finding what you need, what part of the country do you
live in?


I know it's going to be nigh impossible to find a good combo in that price range...but you can have the best of both worlds as far as a carbine that can double as a marksman rifle. The FN-FAL was very good for that (but very susceptible to dust, or at least mine was), and the M1A/M14 is renown for being not only a viable but preferred sniper rifle...but both are far outside of that price range.

Ruger Mini-14 is something I was considering though, for both it's size and pistol-grip option, as well as common parts & accessories, although it's not to be expected to be very accurate at longer ranges from what I understand.

Actually the Glock 27 is much smaller and has significantly less recoil than my old Glock 20 which would be ideal for both me and my daughter...but I thought it was .40SW. Isn't the Glock 30 the subcompact .45? I'd personally prefer a .45 and I hear that the Glock 30 doesn't have as much kick as my old 27 did...but that's probably too much for my daughter.

I'm north of California, so thankfully I don't have to worry about State or Local laws against Flash Reducers vs legal Muzzle Brake or Pistol Grips being illegal or not.



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 05:05 PM
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reply to post by fraterormus
 


May i ask what age is your daughter? Just out of curiosity, what do believe is a proper age to teach heavy weapon for a daughter? You know, my culture differs a lot to yours, and honestly, i'd teach my child at no age the "skills" you seem to regard as necessary... well, there are differences between people.



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 06:01 PM
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Originally posted by Wachstum
May i ask what age is your daughter? Just out of curiosity, what do believe is a proper age to teach heavy weapon for a daughter? You know, my culture differs a lot to yours, and honestly, i'd teach my child at no age the "skills" you seem to regard as necessary... well, there are differences between people.


When she turned 10 I got her a longbow and taught her bow safety and archery.
When she turned 11 I got her a compound bow.
When she turned 12 I got her a sword and she is taking Fencing lessons with me to learn foil, epee, and saber.

What started off as giving her a Classical Education in Archery & Fencing (and her requirement to receive a sword was memorizing 12 classic books of poetry), turned into something she took a lot of interest in and enjoys. She finds it challenging and it has helped her greatly increase her focus and decrease her distractability.

So, as she is approaching 13 she has already been asking about going to the Gun Range and although the babymama doesn't agree she is age appropriate to be given firearms training, her babymama's father wants to take her hunting with him this season and agrees that she is ready.

Although I wouldn't give her her own firearm as a minor, if I am going to have any in the house, even under lock and key, then she is going to have to learn firearm safety first before I consider it, let alone let her go hunting with her maternal grandfather. (The State I live in certifies children over the age 11 for firearm hunting safety.)

By comparison, I was taught firearm safety when I was 5 and re-taught it over and over until I learned to both respect and fear firearms. On my 7th birthday my grandfather gave me a .22 rifle although my parents wouldn't let me touch it until after I was 10. Before he would teach me to use the .22 rifle, he made me learn how to shoot a M1 Garand first. It seemed backwards at first, but after I earned a right to use the .22 it actually made sense. By the time I was 11 my father allowed me to open-carry a Ruger Super Blackhawk loaded with bird-shot whenever we went hiking (as I have always had a problem attracting rattle-snakes).

I am looking primarily for firearms for myself but ones that she can learn to use as well. Sub-compact handguns make more sense because they would fit her hand better...although for rifles she would probably get more enjoyment from long-range target shooting than close to mid-range, whereas I prefer close to mid-range. If she enjoys Marksmanship with a firearm as much as she does with a bow, then it might be yet another sport she may find interest with.

Ancient cultures understood the need to teach martial weapons to children of both genders at a young age, not for martial purposes, but as a form of discipline and sport that may one day serve them well if ever the need arose that they be used for martial purposes later in their life. Almost every Prep School for girls teaches Fencing & Archery still. Just because the martial weapons have evolved over the course of history doesn't mean that modern martial weapons shouldn't be taught to youth as well.

Although every child is different. In some cultures a child gains the rights and responsibilities of an adult at 13. I have raised my daughter responsibly so that she would be mentally, emotionally and morally ready to accept adult responsibilities at that age. As such, so long as she continues to take responsibility, I have no hesitation in allowing her certain privileges. However, there are children older than my daughter that I would not consider teaching firearms to, and some adults that I have met that probably shouldn't be allowed that privilege either. Age, in such cases, has little to do with it, but one's character and disposition do.

Besides, if my daughter has had her BATF Explosives Permit since age 7 (so that she could continue enjoying her favorite hobby, High Powered Rocketry, post 9-11), then it doesn't seem any more odd that she would receive firearms safety and training at age 13!



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 06:08 PM
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Mini 14 is a good semi auto rifle in .223

Tarus 24/7 is a good reliable semiauto handgun. It's not as high a quality as some others in the looks department but is accurate reliable and inexpensive.

If you want to teach your daughter to shoot for the sake of shooting but don't plan on hunting deer or larger then a high quality 22 rifle is cheap, good for kids to learn on, good for small game and costs nearly nothing for ammo.

you could probably get all three for less than a thousand if you shop around or buy used.



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 06:22 PM
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reply to post by fraterormus
 


You can get an AK type weapon for 400-500.

There is a good selection of these here.
here.

If you're looking for a different type. The Ruger 10/22 comes to mind. But if you're looking for something more like an AR15 without it's price tag. There is the:
Kel-Tec SU16

Then lastly for a hand gun? What I can say for that price range there is the Taurus hand guns. Glocks while affordable might be pushing it in that price range for both a rifle and a handgun.

I know less about hand guns personally.



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 07:06 PM
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You were right about the glock 27 being a .40 cal. I just wanted to
chime in to say that the Kel- tec carbines are all on backorder.
Unless you can grab one used forget it, dealers say they won't
have them for months.

have you considered any of those single shot guns with the
barrels you can swap out? i forget how makes them but they
are pretty cheap and could offer some versatility. my first gun
was a cheap .22 bolt action. Having no follow-up shots taught
me to take careful aim, an important lesson that isn't learned
with semiautos. Happy hunting!



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 07:34 PM
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Hi Frat,

I would agree with most here that what Your asking for is a tall order. I haven't bought a gun in a while, and every time I go to a gun store I am in shock!!!

Seems like guns are double the price from just a few years ago.

I would agree that an AK variant would be a cheap, and good choice. It is one of my favorite weapons. I tend to disagree with many People on them not being accurate; I think they are "fairly" decent. I have had to put them in a vice, and literally bend the receiver in order to straighten it; they do commonly come bent.

It's actually a common fix for them; the gun was designed for peasants to use, and be able to fix out in the sticks.

Aside from that another idea is to check with the DCM, or Director Of Civilian Marksmanship. They have a program where You can specify what type of older refurbished military rifle, and it is very very cheap. It is not an over night thing.

You have to compete in a DCM shoot, or I believe a firearms training course will work as well. You simply fill out Your paper work, and submit it with Your choice of long rifle. Nothing modern where it can go full auto. In fact I think it's kinda limited to Garands, and the bolt action 1903's............But they are refurbished.......... I think You can get one a year?????? I know several People that have been tickled pink because the cost used to be around a 100 bucks, and You'd end up with a rifle worth in some cases over a 1000 bucks.

Aside from all the above, and not really what You were looking for, I recommend a Thompson Center Contender...... I believe that's what they are called. The single shot, that can swap out barrels, and calibers.

They would definitely teach accuracy, and even how to shoot at long distances. I had a buddy that consistently shot at 200 yards, and could keep the grouping down under an inch.

I really think that should the SHTF, slow sniper type shooting requirements will be the norm.

EDIT: Most colleges have shooting clubs on campus, and will even supply the firearms...... Usually they are open sited air rifles, or single shot 22's; both designed around Olympic style competitions.

The entire set up is for olympic style; range, guns, targets. These clubs always have really informative People hanging around; not Your typical gun guys, but a little different. The ones I've been to didn't require any college ID, or approval; just call ahead. I learned a lot of accuracy tricks from them.

[edit on 24-9-2009 by sanchoearlyjones]



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 07:39 PM
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You could get a Smith and Wesson Sigma for about $350:
www.impactguns.com...

And a Ruger Mini-14 for $650 (if it's on sale, anyways):
www.impactguns.com...

I've heard that the newer Mini-14s have addressed the concern of poor accuracy that used to be a big complaint. I've always heard of them being reliable.

I don't know about finding a 7.62x51 rifle in that price range, and still having enough left over for a sidearm though. You'd probably have to either go for used firearms, or bad firearms.



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 08:17 PM
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reply to post by sanchoearlyjones
 


Hm, never heard of DCM shoot.. but that sounds like a good program. I've always wanted a Garand..

A Springfield bolt action would be very good as well.. those things are monsters in term of accuracy and stopping power.



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 08:55 PM
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Star and flag, I would second the suggestion that you start her off with a single shot (no magazine) bolt. It teaches to make every shot count. Alternatively, as she has received progressing weapons training, consider a smaller caliber caplock (.36-.45) rifle. Don't laugh, as she will have to be very careful to measure powder, patching and setting the ball. I suggest a caplock to increase the reliability from a flintlock. There can be sort of a Zen thing with black powder shooting, not unlike Japanese archery. It teaches discipline and consistency. That one learns to hit the target is almost secondary.



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by Viking04
Alternatively, as she has received progressing weapons training, consider a smaller caliber caplock (.36-.45) rifle. Don't laugh, as she will have to be very careful to measure powder, patching and setting the ball. I suggest a caplock to increase the reliability from a flintlock. There can be sort of a Zen thing with black powder shooting, not unlike Japanese archery. It teaches discipline and consistency. That one learns to hit the target is almost secondary.


Actually, your suggestion just brought back a flood of memories I entirely forgot about. After I had earned my Webelos badge and became a Boy Scout, my very first Jamboree as a Boy Scout we were taught to load and fire caplock pistols and muskets. I was 10 at the time and loved it...although I must confess that I did get a little more caught up in learning how to throw a hatchet at the time.

You are right though...it would be a useful thing to learn to shift focus away from the stress of hitting a target, but learn to take ones time preparing by loading and packing the gun with precision to where it is nothing more than another part of the routine process.

As others had mentioned, any of the single-shots would be similar, teaching to waste not and to make every shot count.

I might have to give that some consideration.



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 10:52 PM
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Originally posted by sanchoearlyjones
Aside from that another idea is to check with the DCM, or Director Of Civilian Marksmanship. They have a program where You can specify what type of older refurbished military rifle, and it is very very cheap. It is not an over night thing.

Most colleges have shooting clubs on campus, and will even supply the firearms...... Usually they are open sited air rifles, or single shot 22's; both designed around Olympic style competitions.


You are a veritable fountain of good ideas!

I'll check in on the DCM Program. That sounds like a wonderful program. I had no idea, although to be honest we should be doing that with all military rifles rather than melt them down or destroy them. If Tax Payers paid for them, then the Military's throw-aways should be passed back to the Tax Payers that want them. Heck, even if they are old WWII issue M1 Garands, those are still fine weapons (except for getting your fingers bit off when you swap clips).

The Campus Shooting Club would be great, but alas...both of the Universities here have neither a Shooting Club, Archery Club or Fencing Club. We do have 2 Olympic Gold Medalists that teach Fencing privately, but we don't even have private Shooting Clubs...just one private Shooting Range way up in the mountains. The only Archery Range is a Laser Archery Range that charges by the minute! I guess that's what I get for living in the backwoods!
Still, for others who might be lurking on this thread, that's a wonderful resource to tap if your local College or University has one!



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 11:18 PM
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reply to post by fraterormus
 
South Korea just announced yesterday that they are about to sell 100,000 American long and side arms they've held since the Armistice.

They've probably been well-stored. You might be able to get a deal on an M-1 Garand and maybe a Colt sidearm.

Good thinking. I've got one of each, but have had them for over 20 years.
(I've also got a "sporterized" Argentine Mauser (7.62) that didn't set me back a lot, but doesn't quite fit your criteria. (It would make do as the "sniper" rifle you seemed to be considering.)

Good luck.

jw

[edit on 24-9-2009 by jdub297]



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 11:22 PM
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I did find a used Galil clone for $650 but it's by Century which are hit or miss when hot off the assembly line...used sounds like one heck of a crap shoot.

We have two suggestions for the Mini-14 and I'm thinking that might be the best way to go. Ruger does have models available in the right price range. I wasn't aware that their newer models are accurate in tight groups up to 300 yards. That's sounds like it might be right on the money.



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 12:11 AM
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Now lets be real here. Is the "sniper" rifle for you or her??

If its for her then:
Visit a pawn shop and purchase a $100 .22 rifle. Go to Wally World and spend $100 on Bulk 22 ammo. Put the remaining $800 into savings to purchase a better weapon in the future.


Teach her safety first, then marksmanship. When she has graduated both levels to your satisfaction purchase a real rifle.

I would NOT put a 308 battle rifle into a young girls hands. The weapon will be too heavy and the recoil too much to foster anything good out of the experience. I also would not put anything "sniper" related into her hands as well for the same reason.

When it is time to graduate to a "real" rifle, DO NOT go out with the intention of picking up the cheapest rifle possible. This is THE #1 mistake in the the gun community. Let me put it this way: Would you climb Everest with the cheapest equipment you could find? NO you would not! Why would you purchase the cheapest rifle when your life may depend on it someday?

Edit to add:
Stay away from the Rugers UNLESS it is a Ruger 10-22. The Mini 14's and Mini 30's are CRAP and must be sent to the factory for simple repairs as Ruger will not sell certain parts. The magazines are flimsy and the barrels are prone to having a "wandering zero". There is a reason why they are cheap to purchase.

I'm just a gunsmith....I pretend to know nothing.



[edit on 25-9-2009 by bismarcksea]



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 12:32 PM
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For a 7.62x51mm carbine/marksman rifle, you can't go wrong with a Springfield SOCOM16/SOCOM II. An M1 Carbine might also be a valid choice.

[edit on 26-9-2009 by ShadeWolf]



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 02:30 PM
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reply to post by ShadeWolf
 


Those are great guns, but they fall well out of the budget range requirement by the OP.



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