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Are the Jewish people a religion, race, or nationality?

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posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 04:34 PM
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reply to post by Solomons
 


Maybe race wasn't the best choice of a word. Ethnic group is probably a better choice.




posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 04:40 PM
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Groupies-

Everyone here will have to try and keep a civil tone under their fingertips when discussing this hot topic since many persons take offence at some of the recent developments in genetics vis a vis the 'Jewish' identify issue.

90 % of the persons in the world today who style themselves 'Jews' for whatever reason are genetically descended from Khazarian Ukrainian 'converts' to Judaeism in the 9th century AD in the region around Kiev--they are not blood related to the 'Israelites' genetically.

The Khazarians came in two basic colourings, dark Khazars who looked like Turks, and white Khazars who had red or blonde hair and blue eyes: both types were goy/gentile sun-phallus worshipping sheepherders and dealers in leather goods and horses, cattle, wives, grain, wine, etc. along ancient trade routes and found themselves by AD 780 hemmed in by warrior Muslims on the east and Byzantine warrior Christians on the west, so asked around to find a common religion to both, and eventually came up with the idea of Judaeism as 'a Bava Metzia' (middle gate) since Rabinnic Judaeism (according to their interviews with Saffardi Jews in Spain) convinced them was a common element to both sides (they were literally squeezed into the center); the court of Khazaria converted by bringing in Rebbes from Spain and changing their Ukranian names to Hebrew ones, but genetically these persons were still 'goyim' (i.e. non semitic); then they became circumcised and converted to Judaism, so that within 200 years more than 1 million people in the region considered themselves 'Jews', aka Ashkenazim.

The Ashkenazim have no blood relationship to the 'Israelites' who were more or less exterminated by the time the Romans ground Jerusalem to powder after the 2 failed Jewish Wars against Rome (Josephus said 900,000 Judaeans died in the first one); the rest fled to other countries or were sold into slavery esp after AD 72 and began to mix in with the local gentile population over time.

The other major 'branch' of Judaism are the socalled Safardim from Spain who mograted there from Palestine, and do have some semitic Israelite blood (and Arabic blood by mixing with Spanish Moors) but all this genetic mixing over the centuries has watered down the gene pool--people looking for a 'leviticial' marker in the genes are often shocked to see how mixed race people who today call themselves Jews are--although this fact is generally hidden from the public.

The Ashkenazi-TurkoUkranian converts to Rabinnic Judaism out of the region of Kiev in the 8th and 9th century AD is outlined in a book (aka 'Khazaria', read "The Thirteenth Tribe" by Professor Arhtur Koestler - www.biblebelievers.org.au... )

These turko-Ukranian converts ('Ashkenazim') are in NOT meaningfully blood-related to the so called 'ancient' Israelites, whose own 'bloodline' is a mishmash of different invasion races over time (Syrian, Canaanite, Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek then finally Roman--to name the invasion races in rough chronological order.

Today, it would only be really meaningful to say that Rabinnic (non sacrificial, non Temple) Judaiesm is a religion and a culture, but not a race based on blood groups any longer. Think of Dances with Wolves claiming to be blood related to the Amerindians !



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 05:43 PM
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This isn't true. It is true that many Khazars became Jewish, but it's not true that most Jews today are descended from them.

www.azstarnet.com...



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 07:24 PM
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Hi Darko--

I think you will have to seriously 'consider the source' of this silly self-serving Ancient Aaronid genetic marker trash.

It will not survive close scrutiny of the facts on the ground with respect to genetic markers among persons alive to day on this planet who style themselve's 'Jews'. 90% of those randomly selected will come up with a Turko-Urkranian genetic marker (non Semitic) and not a 'Semitic-Palestinian' marker.

I think over the next 20 years this will be proved conclusively by better and better genetic testing. So be prepared for more evidence over the next decades to finally put to bed this whole idea of modern day 'Jews' being direct descendants of the Israelite amphychtionies in terms of shared bloodlines.

Interestingly the Falasha's (who appear negroid) have Semitic markers very similar to present day Palestinians whose genetic markers are very similar to say, odd patches of remnant families from 'Palestinan Jewry' such as Yemeni 'Jews' (who are considered 'Semitic' as are all 'Arab' peoples, including the present day 'Palestinian population; in Haifa etc. and also in occupied Palestine.

But today, lining up 100 random persons who style themselves 'Jews' shows 'the greatest variation in blood genetic makeup possible' that shows that they are not at all from a single coherent blood-race and thus cannot be regarded as such, at least in the technical sense of a 'race'.

Rabinnic (non temple, non sacrificial) Judaeism today is a religion and an ethos, but not a 'race' in any meaningful (i.e. genetic) sense any more.

Of the 24 priestly Levitical and Zadokite Yerushalayimite priestly families who had some Aaronid blood lines back in 587BC and who were exiled by force into Babylon (southern Iraq) only 4 Families ever came back, the rest stayed in Babylon mixing in with the local population.

To fill up the gap of 20 families that stayed behind, the books of Ezra and Nehemiah mention that Canaanites and other gentiles from non-Levitical families and other blood types than the Aaronid Levetical priestly family had to be added to the number of Priests in order to re-gain the 24 families of priests in BC 490 that existed 100 years earlier; these gentile converted priests were called Nethinim ('givens') Ezra 2:70; 7:7, 24; 8:20, etc. These were non-Aaronids...so after the Exile into Babylon, the Aaronid priesthood basically was no longer a separate genetic strain that had not been mixed with other bloodlines.

Even more reason to reject the nonsense in your linked article: they should have compared the blood groups of the Cohenim/Kohens they identified with the Kievan blood groups: they would have found a near exact match.

Certainly these Kohens/Cohenim males the study in your article used for their limited genetic testing may well have BEEN RELATED TO EACH OTHER, but that is because they are all basically Turko-Ukranian Kievan Khazars--that is their connecting link.

There is no way these persons could be directluy related by blood to a hypotheitcally ancient 'Aaronid priesthood' genetic strain which went basically extinct after AD 72 with the failed Jewish War against Rome wiped 95% of them out with the destruction of the 2nd Herodian Temple in Yerushalayim--even more so because after the exile the Aaronid priestly genetic blood groups were mixed with other blood groups for 500 years.

These Nethinim gentiles at a later time, became a butt of some very bad jokes by the later Talmudic writers against everything that they regarded as un-Jewish.



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by Sigismundus
Hi Darko--

I think you will have to seriously 'consider the source' of this silly self-serving Ancient Aaronid genetic marker trash.

It will not survive close scrutiny of the facts on the ground with respect to genetic markers among persons alive to day on this planet who style themselve's 'Jews'. 90% of those randomly selected will come up with a Turko-Urkranian genetic marker (non Semitic) and not a 'Semitic-Palestinian' marker.

I think over the next 20 years this will be proved conclusively by better and better genetic testing. So be prepared for more evidence over the next decades to finally put to bed this whole idea of modern day 'Jews' being direct descendants of the Israelite amphychtionies in terms of shared bloodlines.

Interestingly the Falasha's (who appear negroid) have Semitic markers very similar to present day Palestinians whose genetic markers are very similar to say, odd patches of remnant families from 'Palestinan Jewry' such as Yemeni 'Jews' (who are considered 'Semitic' as are all 'Arab' peoples, including the present day 'Palestinian population; in Haifa etc. and also in occupied Palestine.

But today, lining up 100 random persons who style themselves 'Jews' shows 'the greatest variation in blood genetic makeup possible' that shows that they are not at all from a single coherent blood-race and thus cannot be regarded as such, at least in the technical sense of a 'race'.

Rabinnic (non temple, non sacrificial) Judaeism today is a religion and an ethos, but not a 'race' in any meaningful (i.e. genetic) sense any more.

Of the 24 priestly Levitical and Zadokite Yerushalayimite priestly families who had some Aaronid blood lines back in 587BC and who were exiled by force into Babylon (southern Iraq) only 4 Families ever came back, the rest stayed in Babylon mixing in with the local population.

To fill up the gap of 20 families that stayed behind, the books of Ezra and Nehemiah mention that Canaanites and other gentiles from non-Levitical families and other blood types than the Aaronid Levetical priestly family had to be added to the number of Priests in order to re-gain the 24 families of priests in BC 490 that existed 100 years earlier; these gentile converted priests were called Nethinim ('givens') Ezra 2:70; 7:7, 24; 8:20, etc. These were non-Aaronids...so after the Exile into Babylon, the Aaronid priesthood basically was no longer a separate genetic strain that had not been mixed with other bloodlines.

Even more reason to reject the nonsense in your linked article: they should have compared the blood groups of the Cohenim/Kohens they identified with the Kievan blood groups: they would have found a near exact match.

Certainly these Kohens/Cohenim males the study in your article used for their limited genetic testing may well have BEEN RELATED TO EACH OTHER, but that is because they are all basically Turko-Ukranian Kievan Khazars--that is their connecting link.

There is no way these persons could be directluy related by blood to a hypotheitcally ancient 'Aaronid priesthood' genetic strain which went basically extinct after AD 72 with the failed Jewish War against Rome wiped 95% of them out with the destruction of the 2nd Herodian Temple in Yerushalayim--even more so because after the exile the Aaronid priestly genetic blood groups were mixed with other blood groups for 500 years.

These Nethinim gentiles at a later time, became a butt of some very bad jokes by the later Talmudic writers against everything that they regarded as un-Jewish.


Interesting. Even if true though, they are still Jews, just not genetically speaking. They're still culturally descended from the people in the Bible.



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 07:55 PM
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Hi Darko--

Absolutely.

Just as the caucasian character 'Dances With Wolves' is 'culturally and spiritually' (though not genetically) a Lakota Sioux Amerindian.

He would not be blood related to them--only by tribal ethos 'adoption' like the Kieven Khazars. (in other words you could not get a sample of his father's blood and look for Lakota Sioux genetic markers--it would not be found).



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 08:23 PM
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Star and flag for Sigismundus.
My wife is a mainly Sephardic Jew and I inquired from rabbis on conversion rules (mainly because of my studies of mysticism. They are pretty strict - learning a lot of stuff, Hebrew reading of course, eating kashrut, observing shabes etc. A lot of waiting, mitzvahs like cicrumcision and sacred baths. If you are poor and honest, people will help with financing and celebration though. Convert Jews will be called the sons or daughters of Abraham among Jewish religionus circles, because it is considered they are no longer the sons of their non-Jewish parents in a religious sense.
As for the gene stuff, it is almost as mixed up as Hungarians, as Sigismundus says.
When donnie alludes to a cultural inheritance, that is true, in several ways. (Not tied to genes though). First in depth psychology. Carl Jung treated a few people whose ancestors were converts from Judaism. They were fervent Christians but dreamed of Rabbis once and then. Jung, who was a mystical Christian himself, encouraged them to discover their Jewish roots as much as they felt comfortable to do.

Hungary's Jews were asked last year if they voted yes or no on wanting to be defined as a minority ethnic group. There could have been advantages, especially in money and status. Over 90 percent voted no, we do not want to be defined as an ethnic group. (Yet most non-Jewish Hungarians think about Hungary's Jews as one ethnic group). Antisemites buy the arguments on genes passing on learned behavior - then the next moment we hear precisely the stereotypes Hitler so loved.
The question is even more complicated because there are atheist Jews (when I was a kid, I think more Hungarian Jews were atheists - Socialist, Communists, also independent personalities who did philosophy arts etc.) The trend then in educated curcles was definitely atheism. In Europe at least.
For there you have Jewish people with clear parental lineage who are atheist but sometimes show up at Jewish fests for solidarity "with their own people". When I asked one person like that how could she be a Jew without a God, how would she think about that herself, she replied "Judaism is a culture."
So now we have it: there are traces of Sephards who have Hebrew genes, but all the Nazi charicatures (long nose etc.) were sculpted to denigrate Ashkenazi Jews. (Yes, there are many read and even blond and blue-eyed, Ashkenazis.) The Ashkenazi Jews could be considered a separate people with a loose ethnic ancestry. Many Israelites mixed in all Mediterranean countries such as Greece. Islamic countries loved them, they were easier to agree with and not as savage as Western Christians. And they could sell wine.

But in Israel, I read, the official policy is that Jewry is a nation and its homeland is Israel. There were thousands of Jew converts in China earlier - physically Chinese but observing Hebrew law.

So, to sum it up, we are looking for the Jewish identity, and some say it is a people for some definants, a religion (or two, since reformism is different, or three since Kabbalah is again as different as Sufism from Sunni Islam) for other definants, especially converts adn peoples whos race would originally join them to other religions - Ethiopians, Moroccans, arab Jews etc., while being a Jew is simply a statement on an ancestry, or at best a culture for non-religous Jews.

I must point out that my anecdotes of depth psychology derive from exampes where the Jewish person was not farther away that a few generations. It is because ancestors ARE important in many subtle ways for each of us. What I must emphasize is that when antisemites (I recognize the word is badly coined) point out how "the Jews own all the banks", they include all and sundry, and if I point out that vey few bankers go to synagogues and give charity to poor Jewish families, as Judaism would require, even if maybe there are proportionately more people in banking with Jewish roots that say, agriculture, the next answer is that "it is in their blood. Moses told them money is important - so these people became Christians or atheist in vain. They can never shake the bonds of blood. Maybe" - the typical antisemite would continue in this country - "they better all become truly Jewish but like this, it is deplorable." In other words, the secular or difficult-to-define Jew in Eastern Europe has a special hatred in the eyes of the local antisemite.

See, nazis wants everything to be black and white pure and simple.
Sociologists have even pointed out that the sick definitions of Nazism and the remaining attitudes (mind control) do have a repercussion on the Jewish identity.

Imagine, under Communism, where in textbooks Hitler was portrayed as the terrible villain he was, who exterminated Jewish people, it was inappropriate to ask someone if the were Jewish. In the peaceful seventies. It was a secret held and whispered for many years.
It could have been similar to coming out for a gay person when they found out (many families kept it hidden from their own sons and daughters) and decided to talk openly about it. Now the revival of religion, ties to Israel and the fact that Jewish intelligentsia was not persecuted per se under the generally antireligious system changed the air.

Finally, if you are interested, Judaism has its own resonance. Go to a shabeth, eat the food, hear people mutter in Hebrew, see the symbols and songs - there is something very ancient in it. Kabbalah is the same.

As for mysticism, I think Hebrew Kabbalah intertwined with Egyptian sorcery and rulership. Then they left Egypt over major disagreements. This is the source on which probably Hellenistic culture became a subtratum in many mixing bowls. Little survived from the exact rites of anceint greece, but much from Judaism predating it.

That is why the world's Jewry is far from united. Many zealots put their lives to help Palestinian causes, Marxism, science or other very rational philosophies. There were many Jews in the Hippie movement too. When I lived in America, most Jews I met were liberal, easy-going, disliking big capitalism, the right wing etc. A smaller, materially richer segment folded away with pale faces into the folds of the Republican Party - I thought those were quite cranky though. The founders of the neo-conservative movement.
A closing thought: Only Marx, a nonreligious Jew himself, could explain, why rich American Jews would vote Republican while poorer Jews voted Dem or went the left.

[edit on 9/24/2009 by Kokatsi]



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 09:43 PM
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Originally posted by Kokatsi
Star and flag for Sigismundus.
My wife is a mainly Sephardic Jew and I inquired from rabbis on conversion rules (mainly because of my studies of mysticism. They are pretty strict - learning a lot of stuff, Hebrew reading of course, eating kashrut, observing shabes etc. A lot of waiting, mitzvahs like cicrumcision and sacred baths. If you are poor and honest, people will help with financing and celebration though. Convert Jews will be called the sons or daughters of Abraham among Jewish religionus circles, because it is considered they are no longer the sons of their non-Jewish parents in a religious sense.
As for the gene stuff, it is almost as mixed up as Hungarians, as Sigismundus says.
When donnie alludes to a cultural inheritance, that is true, in several ways. (Not tied to genes though). First in depth psychology. Carl Jung treated a few people whose ancestors were converts from Judaism. They were fervent Christians but dreamed of Rabbis once and then. Jung, who was a mystical Christian himself, encouraged them to discover their Jewish roots as much as they felt comfortable to do.

Hungary's Jews were asked last year if they voted yes or no on wanting to be defined as a minority ethnic group. There could have been advantages, especially in money and status. Over 90 percent voted no, we do not want to be defined as an ethnic group. (Yet most non-Jewish Hungarians think about Hungary's Jews as one ethnic group). Antisemites buy the arguments on genes passing on learned behavior - then the next moment we hear precisely the stereotypes Hitler so loved.
The question is even more complicated because there are atheist Jews (when I was a kid, I think more Hungarian Jews were atheists - Socialist, Communists, also independent personalities who did philosophy arts etc.) The trend then in educated curcles was definitely atheism. In Europe at least.
For there you have Jewish people with clear parental lineage who are atheist but sometimes show up at Jewish fests for solidarity "with their own people". When I asked one person like that how could she be a Jew without a God, how would she think about that herself, she replied "Judaism is a culture."
So now we have it: there are traces of Sephards who have Hebrew genes, but all the Nazi charicatures (long nose etc.) were sculpted to denigrate Ashkenazi Jews. (Yes, there are many read and even blond and blue-eyed, Ashkenazis.) The Ashkenazi Jews could be considered a separate people with a loose ethnic ancestry. Many Israelites mixed in all Mediterranean countries such as Greece. Islamic countries loved them, they were easier to agree with and not as savage as Western Christians. And they could sell wine.

But in Israel, I read, the official policy is that Jewry is a nation and its homeland is Israel. There were thousands of Jew converts in China earlier - physically Chinese but observing Hebrew law.

So, to sum it up, we are looking for the Jewish identity, and some say it is a people for some definants, a religion (or two, since reformism is different, or three since Kabbalah is again as different as Sufism from Sunni Islam) for other definants, especially converts adn peoples whos race would originally join them to other religions - Ethiopians, Moroccans, arab Jews etc., while being a Jew is simply a statement on an ancestry, or at best a culture for non-religous Jews.

I must point out that my anecdotes of depth psychology derive from exampes where the Jewish person was not farther away that a few generations. It is because ancestors ARE important in many subtle ways for each of us. What I must emphasize is that when antisemites (I recognize the word is badly coined) point out how "the Jews own all the banks", they include all and sundry, and if I point out that vey few bankers go to synagogues and give charity to poor Jewish families, as Judaism would require, even if maybe there are proportionately more people in banking with Jewish roots that say, agriculture, the next answer is that "it is in their blood. Moses told them money is important - so these people became Christians or atheist in vain. They can never shake the bonds of blood. Maybe" - the typical antisemite would continue in this country - "they better all become truly Jewish but like this, it is deplorable." In other words, the secular or difficult-to-define Jew in Eastern Europe has a special hatred in the eyes of the local antisemite.

See, nazis wants everything to be black and white pure and simple.
Sociologists have even pointed out that the sick definitions of Nazism and the remaining attitudes (mind control) do have a repercussion on the Jewish identity.

Imagine, under Communism, where in textbooks Hitler was portrayed as the terrible villain he was, who exterminated Jewish people, it was inappropriate to ask someone if the were Jewish. In the peaceful seventies. It was a secret held and whispered for many years.
It could have been similar to coming out for a gay person when they found out (many families kept it hidden from their own sons and daughters) and decided to talk openly about it. Now the revival of religion, ties to Israel and the fact that Jewish intelligentsia was not persecuted per se under the generally antireligious system changed the air.

Finally, if you are interested, Judaism has its own resonance. Go to a shabeth, eat the food, hear people mutter in Hebrew, see the symbols and songs - there is something very ancient in it. Kabbalah is the same.

As for mysticism, I think Hebrew Kabbalah intertwined with Egyptian sorcery and rulership. Then they left Egypt over major disagreements. This is the source on which probably Hellenistic culture became a subtratum in many mixing bowls. Little survived from the exact rites of anceint greece, but much from Judaism predating it.

That is why the world's Jewry is far from united. Many zealots put their lives to help Palestinian causes, Marxism, science or other very rational philosophies. There were many Jews in the Hippie movement too. When I lived in America, most Jews I met were liberal, easy-going, disliking big capitalism, the right wing etc. A smaller, materially richer segment folded away with pale faces into the folds of the Republican Party - I thought those were quite cranky though. The founders of the neo-conservative movement.
A closing thought: Only Marx, a nonreligious Jew himself, could explain, why rich American Jews would vote Republican while poorer Jews voted Dem or went the left.

[edit on 9/24/2009 by Kokatsi]


Wow, very interesting and informative!

Another thing to throw out - do you think Jewish culture originates in Atlantis?



posted on Sep, 24 2009 @ 10:30 PM
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So, if it is merely the borrowing of a culture and not the result of any kind of bloodline , how does that translate into the creation of the state of Israel? Are the cultural adoptions of Ukrainians and southern Russians enough to warrant such an event?

America likes to spread it's culture around the world , are they like passing out deeds to some real estate over there, that are even redeemable centuries later ?


[edit on 25-9-2009 by Drexl]



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 03:26 AM
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Originally posted by Solomons
It's a religion.Semites are not all jewish.Even then i personally don't class semites as a race.Think it's quite silly...I may be wrong on that account but i am of the belief there is only race ie homosapiens.


Come to think of it, aren't the Israelis (I'm obviously generalising greatly here) anti-semites as they are against the Palestinians, who are also semites?

This is all very confusing.



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 03:55 AM
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Interesting thread Op, in fact its quiet logic for us here who own a land...like im Maltese since i'm born in Malta, my parent can be from other countries but since im born here its easy



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 04:16 AM
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reply to post by Sigismundus
 


Hi. Was wondering if you can show me your source for "90 percent of Jews are from Khazarian origin". I am sure that you saw that somewhere in respected research, and it is not just a gut feeling or wishful thinking.



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 04:37 PM
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Hebrews are a bloodline but only marginally so as in barely usable but just enough so that the were "chosen" to be the people who would bring back the Messiah/God With Us.

As a nation they are preparing to reintroduce the Kingdom of God on Earth as it is in Heaven.... but... sadly Israel is not at this time the KOG.

The Hebrews have many within their tribe who are genetically born as Hebrews but are not the Children of Abraham.

You will know who is and who is not of the tribe of Abraham by how they live.



posted on Sep, 25 2009 @ 05:34 PM
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H i Zero--

There are estimated to be approx 700,000 Sephardi- Jews still living in the world today -- out of a total ‘Jewish’ world population of approx. 13,500,000 (2009); en.wikipedia.org...

One would would have to consider Semitic non-Sefardim also who were pushed out by the Diaspora in antiquity and still kept some of their ancestral traditions, although their blood lines were also mixed in over the centuries with the goyim (non-jews) they were living with.

So you could possibly add about 350,000 other 'Shemitic Jews' who might be able to trace some blood lines back to Canaan now settle in portions of the middle east and north Africa etc. (i.e. the non-'converted Ashkenazim') to that number (e.g. Semitic Yemenite Jews, Iraqi Jews, Iranian Jews, Moroccan Jews, etc.) the total of non-Ashkenazim making roughly 10% of the total number of persons who style themselves as ‘Jews’ today (roughly 13.5 million persons)

For a source for the approx number of living persons who style themselves as 'Sefardim' today, , here’s one source of several you can check out on the www: The Encyclopaedia Britannica:
www.britannica.com...

The 'Sephardim / Sefardim' differ notably from Ashkenazim in preserving [certain ]Babylonian .. Jewish ritual traditions. … there are estimated 700,000 Sephardic Jews in the world today (far far fewer than the Ashkenazim)…”

Does this help clear up any confusion on your part?

[edit on 25-9-2009 by Sigismundus]



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 03:02 AM
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reply to post by Sigismundus
 


Nope. Sorry. Does not help. I seem to miss the logical step from "700,000 Sephardi Jews" to 90 percent of Jews are from Khazarian origin. It is like saying that 31 percent of Germans are Catholics and rest are from France.
By the way, even your source states that there are 1.5-2 million of Sephardi Jews. Soi am even more confused.
I always thought that relatively simple problem of genetic origin can be solved by showing that X is X. Not by weird games with geography. Can you pinpoint me to research that says that ALL non-Sephardi Jews - 85-80 percent (not 90 allready) are from Khazarian origin. I appreciate goog humor, so i would like to see how you will push Ethiopian Jews (another 2 percent) or Mizrahi non-Sephardi Jews (another 20 percent) into Khazaria.
Ashkenazi make for 48 percent of total Jewish population si if you ,by very scientific default generalization, will declare them all Khazarian Jews - it is only 48, well say we round it up to 50 percent. How did you got 90 percent i wonder?
Because the only source stating that Ashkenazi are 90 percent is pre-ww2 propaganda. And then it was true. Now after ww2, it is not. Time to update the data, guys.



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 08:31 AM
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reply to post by Kokatsi
 


Ah, another thing I like about ATS. One can ask a ligitimate question, such as the OP did, and sooner or later somebody will show up who can address it with actual information.

I have trouble with this subject also. I know Jewish people do not like being called "Jews", which confuses me, so I just say "Jewish people", or "She's Jewish".

But if it's religion, then I would say someone "is catholic"; "is Baptist"; or "he is a Christian". Orrr....."she is a catholic. She is a Methodist. She is a Christian." But we shouldn't say "she is a Jew". Perplexing.

Orrrr, if it's another type designation, I might say "He is a Mexican". Or "She's an Italian". But, then, I can't say "He is a Jew".

So, sometimes it's difficult to know how to phrase it, and I know for sure I don't like to offend anybody. Especially our Jewish friends.

I go to church, and they go to Temple. Otherwise, everything is the same.

Is it possible that Jewish people perceive being called simply "a Jew" offensive due to the previous association of greed? You know how that phrase was once used? I don't think it is used anymore. It seems to have gone the way of "Indian-giver". I haven't heard anyone say that in a very long time. There are probably people on ATS who don't even know what I'm referring to. So, good.

But anyway, otherwise I can't understand what it's not PC to say someone is a Jew. I don't say it because I don't want to be offensive, but I'm confused as to the reason.

Can anyone shed any light on this?



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 10:46 AM
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reply to post by ladyinwaiting
 


Why you cannot say - he/she is a Jew??? I mean ,there could be mixed up individuals with issues everywhere, but so far i failed to see a Jew offended by being called one.



posted on Sep, 26 2009 @ 10:49 AM
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Jewish People...

Originated in the ancient Tribe of Judah, a 1/12th part of the Israelite Peoples.

the historical 'Jews' of today are anyone who elects to be subject to the Laws & rules of the Torah.
Being 'Jewish' in no longer a Tribal or Ethnic or Race issue...
being 'Jewish' is sharing a religious worldview, albiet a pretty large religious tent. (orthodox jew, reform jew, et al...)


Thoughts;
'Jew' is a derogatory term, which has been sanitized over time...

recall that 'Judas betrayed Jesus AKA Christ.
the name Judas can be dissected as 'Jew-Das' or 'Das Jew' in the Germanic tongue...(follow the thinking??)
ergo, the early Papacy likely encouraged or did not dissuade the local communities to look at the betrayer of Christ...as the whole community of those people of Judah which controlled the area of and around Jerusalem.... The (das) Jews,
rather than the act of that singular person among the 12 disciples, namely Judas.


next thought;

in Revelations we are told that there will be a 'sealing of the 144,000'
of which only 12,000 will come from the Tribe of Judah,
now-> the Tribe of Levi, who are a Priestly Tribe, will also have 12,000 persons 'sealed', independent of the Jews of Judah.
SO...Why i ask, are these Priests of a different Tribe grouped as 'Jews'
when they are Levites???
.... because of hatred i suspect, because the derogatory term 'Jew' is used toidentify, brand, those peoples who condemmed-&-crucified the Christian Savior

Oh-well.....





posted on Sep, 28 2009 @ 03:04 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Sep, 28 2009 @ 03:41 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



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